Admiral Batteries vs. Turnigy

[jobinseattle]

I have a mixture of both Admiral and Turnigy batteries and I need two more 6S 4500mah and I am thinking about buying two of the Admiral brand mainly because they are a little smaller than the Turnigy. I have two of the Turnigy 6S 4500mah and they seem to work fine. However the Admiral brand is quite a bit more. I have read some of the reviews and people like them but can someone share with me really why the Admiral brand is better or is it? When I first got into the hobby I bought 4 Admiral 3S 2200 and I still have three of them. The other was in a plane I lost and could not find it.

[WintrSol]

The extra size does get you something - lower IR. I have two each Admiral and Turnigy 4S 4000mAh batteries, and the IR of each cell in the Turnigy batteries are in the 3.4-3.8 milli-Ohm range, while those of the Admiral batteries is in the 4.9 to 5.6 range. What that gives you is a somewhat higher Voltage at a given current, and a little more kick at the end of a flight for a burst of speed. The Turnigy is marked 30-40C, while the Admiral is marked 40C; the calculation made by my IR meter suggest the true ratings as 20C and 17C, respectively, for continuous discharge. If your model draws significantly less on your typical flight, say it flies for 6 minutes or more, then these numbers are less important. If you need to hover in 3D mode, or perform big loops, then it may matter.

[xviper]

(My 2 cents, probably not worth even that much.)
I have many Admirmals, both the regular ones and the Pros. Same goes for Turnigy, of all "C" ratings. I've started to use the HobbyKing Graphines lately as my flying buddies say they are spectacular. My first purchase of the Graphine resulted in 2 dead cells on arrival (6 cells total) but HK replaced it immediately free of charge. The replacement was fine.
As WintrSol just posted about the "real" C-rating, I try to buy the highest C rated battery of any brand now. I've always had the feeling that there was something fishy about the stated rating. I'll buy the Admiral Pro whenever they are available and when the price is good. I will only buy Turnigy Heavy Duty whenever I can. The other Turnigies just don't cut it. The HD have worked very well for me so far, even though the QC on them is a bit random (some cells don't charge up evenly). The prices for the Admirals and the Turnigy HD are similar, with the HD coming in a bit cheaper. The jury's still out on the Graphine. The price on those are much higher.

[WintrSol]

It really depends on what models you have. The new Graphene series excel in EDF jets, and also seem to be doing well in quad racers, and other high-demand, short-duration models; they are larger than many batteries of the same size, which may be where they get some of their very low IR. And, yeah, my Turnigy batteries are also HD. I use mine in a 1.4M Mustang, which can pull over 65A, and they really pull that model around.

[xviper]

Just got back from running 2 Graphines through the Yak 130. Other than a bit more flight time, I can't really tell the difference from when I run Zippies through the same plane. Will see if they at least last longer, better. The Zippies are starting to puff after a few dozen flights.

[jobinseattle]

I basically fly these:

Phoenix Edge 540 55in (5S Turnigy)
Sig Senior Sport (5S Turnigy)
Aerobeez 55 Edge 540 (5S Turnigy)
Phoenix 300s (5S Turnigy)

Phoenix Edge 540 65in (6S Turnigy)
Sig T Clips 70 (6S Turnigy)
Great Planes Big Stik 66in (6S Turnigy) Converted to Electric
FMS Olympus (6S Turnigy)

Since I only have 2 6 cell batteries, I am looking to get two more. Actually since my 5 cell batteries are starting to swell a little I am looking at replacing those as well.

[WintrSol]

The lower the IR, the less the battery heats up, and the less likely it is to swell. If you fly a lot at high power, this can be a real problem; IOW, if you fly 3D, I would consider the Graphenes, especially if your power draw is near the C rating on the batteries you currently use. A Watt meter is your friend, and Wayne Giles' IR meter is a good additional tool. It will explain why your 40C battery gets hot when you only pull 30C from it.

[gooniac33]

It is always better to use the capacity to reach the desired discharge rate rather than using the C of the battery. Most of the packs on the market are over rated and to top it off no one really breaks them in right either. This whole thing about EDF batteries and Higher RPM etc.... not very true. I will give an example... the Freewing F-5 says that you should use 40-60c batteries.... Totally unnecessary!! The plane pulls below 80amps at full power so I use a 6s 30c 4000mah pack. the Max continuous discharge rate is 120amps... I am well above what the system will require so the battery will give lots of power but not just dump all of it power like a Higher C pack will. By using the higher C batteries you will be getting less flight time since you will get more amps drawn out of the system.... I guess the whole point of me saying this is to make sure that you have batteries that are going to work with your system. Don't go so much off of the battery C as you do its total discharge rate. Getting slightly higher capacity and lower C will actually give you more. All of your batteries regardless of make will work better if they are well below what they are rated. And expensive does not always mean better....

[Prowler901]

What is this break in process? I've never found a description of it.

[xviper]

I don't know much about IR or about what "C" we're supposed to use. All I know is that when I use a low C battery in some of my jets, they won't get up enough speed to get off the grass field and I plow into the tall weeds at the end. Change over to a high C and the thing jumps into the air without a second thought. This very same experience has been noted by another fellow jet flyer at my field. Neither of us will use low C batteries ever again in our jets. For prop planes, we don't notice that much difference in performance of different C batteries, EXCEPT for the fact that the high C ones gives good punch for longer and increased flight time for the same mah rating. I won't waste my money on low C batteries ever again. Several others I fly with are the same way. You can cite rhyme and verse from battery math calculations till the cows come home, it's what we see in our planes that tell all.
Good example .................... If I can get the Admiral Pro, I'll do it every time over the regular Admiral. Sames goes for "regular" (20-30C) Turnigy "blues" vs Turnigy Heavy Duty and Graphines. I guess it boils down to "real life" experience and what each person wants to spend their money on. I've been flying electrics for over 5 years and have purchased every imaginable sorts of batteries.
NOTE: This is my opinion based on my experience and is likely not even worth 2 cents. Ignore it if it doesn't doesn't work for you. Your results may vary. :D

[WintrSol]

Very few batteries can maintain the current claimed by the C rating printed on them, in fact, it is a rare few that even reach the capability to operate at 30C (which would deplete it in less than 2 minutes). The newest generation of low IR batteries have reached 30C, but they are physically larger and heavier than other batteries of the same capacity. This is for continuous discharge, so, if you need 80A continuously, as many EDFs operate, you need a minimum of 4000mAh at a true 20C, which my measurements posted above mean is a 30-40C rated battery, depending on physical size of the battery. FWIW, the IR of a battery does two things, which works against high-power operation: the resistance drops the Voltage proportional to current, limiting the amount of power at the motor, and also heats the battery internally, which can cause it to puff up, and limit its life. If your battery is warmer than bath water after a flight, the current draw is probably too high.

A lipo battery can exhibit a break-in process, in that, if you don't overheat it from too much current draw, the IR will drop some with the first few uses. For this, I would assume too much current draw is anything over 1/2 the capacity times the C rating. Also, assume all batteries rated 60C or higher are actually in the 25-35C range.

[xviper]

Very few batteries can maintain the current claimed by the C rating printed on them, in fact, it is a rare few that even reach the capability to operate at 30C (which would deplete it in less than 2 minutes). The newest generation of low IR batteries have reached 30C, but they are physically larger and heavier than other batteries of the same capacity. This is for continuous discharge, so, if you need 80A continuously, as many EDFs operate, you need a minimum of 4000mAh at a true 20C, which my measurements posted above mean is a 30-40C rated battery, depending on physical size of the battery. FWIW, the IR of a battery does two things, which works against high-power operation: the resistance drops the Voltage proportional to current, limiting the amount of power at the motor, and also heats the battery internally, which can cause it to puff up, and limit its life. If your battery is warmer than bath water after a flight, the current draw is probably too high.

A lipo battery can exhibit a break-in process, in that, if you don't overheat it from too much current draw, the IR will drop some with the first few uses. For this, I would assume too much current draw is anything over 1/2 the capacity times the C rating. Also, assume all batteries rated 60C or higher are actually in the 25-35C range.

This is precisely why I buy the highest C rated battery I can justifiably afford. I just assume that the printed C rating is nowhere close to what it really is and from past experience, this is true. Granted, certain brands of batteries tend to have less "fish tales" than others. As for new batteries, I "season" mine by charging and discharging several cycles before using them in a plane - 4 if I have time, 3 if I'm lazy and in a hurry.

[jobinseattle]

This is precisely why I buy the highest C rated battery I can justifiably afford. I just assume that the printed C rating is nowhere close to what it really is and from past experience, this is true. Granted, certain brands of batteries tend to have less "fish tales" than others. As for new batteries, I "season" mine by charging and discharging several cycles before using them in a plane - 4 if I have time, 3 if I'm lazy and in a hurry.

When you say you season them what benefit have you noticed from doing that? I mean do the batteries last longer by doing that? Have you compared a like battery and one you seasoned and one you did not? I am curious if I should do that? I mean if I am going to spend $180 on two batteries I want them to last as long as possible.

[xviper]

When you say you season them what benefit have you noticed from doing that? I mean do the batteries last longer by doing that? Have you compared a like battery and one you seasoned and one you did not? I am curious if I should do that? I mean if I am going to spend $180 on two batteries I want them to last as long as possible.

This is where it gets anecdotal. I started doing this about 2 summers ago just because a few people I came across (both in person and on the internet forums) said so. My personal experience has been that I can't tell the difference in quality of life or quantity of life in the batteries that I "season" compared to those that I just throw them into the plane and "give 'er". However, since it's not really costing me much except in time and a bit of electricity, I just do it now out of habit. I simply don't have enough time on these batteries to say one way or the other. I've got slightly older batteries that I've never seasoned and they are still fine today and I've got a couple of batteries that I've seasoned and have not used hard that are starting to get a bit soft and mildly puffy but still work fine.
Some say NEVER keep your batteries fully charged when not using them for weeks on end and to only keep them at a "storage" charge. Then there's the guys who always keep them fully charged, sometimes for a year or more, then top them up and use them again as normal without any detrimental effects. Like many battery stories (even from armchair engineers), they are just stories. They are like the "old wife" that keeps jumping on my back. I haven't quite decided what to do with her yet. As more time goes by, I'll either throw her off or keep carrying her for a while. (Get it? "Old wives tales". :dodgy: )

PS. I don't generally get too worked up about it when people start making battery rules and declarations. I take some with a grain of salt and some I'll try because it doesn't cost me anything. I'll let my own experience guide me on this.

[WintrSol]

Cycling the batteries has a small effect on internal resistance (IR), so you get a little more punch in a model that demands a lot of a battery. But, just a little.

As for keeping them in storage charge vs. fully charged, some batteries will degrade more at full charge than others, and it is impossible to predict which. A friend kept his batteries at full charge, all the time, and, out of four, one lost capacity within a year, while the rest seemed fine. Since that one degraded, he's been keeping them at storage levels, if it's going to be more than a day, and those other three, and the replacement, are still fine after about 3-5 years. I've always kept mine at storage levels, and, except for crash damage and lost in a field, all mine are still working after 5 years. So, YMMV.

BTW, he noticed the one getting weak about the time I got my IR meter, and 2 cells had more than twice the IR as the third, and all were higher than my battery of the same brand, size, and age. This appears to be the only way to tell when a battery is starting to age out, before you have to dead stick a model because it quit before the normal flight time, which is how he noticed. Of course, I've been an electronics engineer for decades, so I like the toys, and pay attention to such things. Besides, batteries are fairly cheap, compared to glow fuel (and the cleaners you use up), so it may not really matter, unless you are really pinched for funds for the hobby.

[xviper]

I try to fly mine down to storage voltage but sometimes that doesn't work out that way and I'll bring them back up to storage voltage before storage. If one of my flying days gets cancelled for whatever reason, I just leave them fully charged. I usually use them within a week or so.

As a side note, yesterday, I dug up an old LiPo that someone gave me in his helicopter when he got out of the hobby. It's been sitting there for years. When I tried to charge it, it wouldn't even register and of course, it didn't charge at all. I switched it to NiCd setting, on low amp charge and it immediately came back up to 3.8v per cell. Then I went to the normal LiPo setting and charged it at 1C. It charged fully as normal but I haven't tried to use it yet. I just found that an interesting way to bring it back from the dead.

[dkalwishky]

A couple of guys in our club have done that, seemed to work...

[TiredIronGRB]

I've done that as well, just charge at .1 and keep a close eye on it.

[WintrSol]

I would only use a lipo brought back like that for bench testing, or in a model I don't care much about.

[gooniac33]

If you want a battery to last you need at least 5-10 cycles of charge/discharge at not more than 1/2 the C of the pack and not letting voltage get to much less then 3.85 per cell under load. As stated the IR will go down and the pack will get better and better before slowly taper off. You can just jump straight to the tapering off by not doing this and batteries will puff or hear up when under load.

But in my 10 years of flying electric RC and especially over the last 2 years, Lipo packs are being abused and over rated by the C ratings. And often people try to use basic electric theory to describe why things are as they are when it is not true. Lower C packs will work wonderfully when they are used with the correct capacity. Capacity will increase the discharge rate and if done right you can get a higher capacity pack that weighs the same as a lower capacity pack with higher C rating. And to top it off the higher capacity lower C pack will not be working as hard either.

If you want to fall for the High C game go ahead. But it isn't needed if you do the math and plan things out right.