Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

and now the original post is back LOL.... RC Groups - View Single Post - BIG TYPHOON + PowerCroco 5050 + APD HV Pro 400A


Last edited by powercroco; Today at 01:33 AM


man u crazy.....🤣

Time to look at Louis's real work with the motors Ralph Your reports lack gravitas and no longer contain any relevant technical substance on the subject matter Ie. motor constants etc. You don't really want to compete... or you would post relevant things like the inverter resistances everyone else has already generated from ecalc database so what the secret?? The sad thing is the data is there and you still pushing the thing. That makes me wonder do you even get it. Your beliefs posted about the electronics will make you a fossil soon enuf.

I mean you are going to get more power out of a considerably higher resistance inverter

Thats Brilliant Dr Ralph Okon!!

You should submit this idea to ABB for the ABB Hubertus POST DOC AWARD!!!!



How much sillier can you be?

😀

[Clugh]

I know another Guinness comparison you probably would not want to know about

You cant do this with my Neu rotors at all
So check to see how much field is escaping the scorpion knocker rotor compared to others
the 50 series is better but it escapes as well....



BTW the APD Pro HV 20S is 450 burst rated
the 16s is 600 burst rated
Bring on the batteries for it...
🙈🙉🙊

[Clugh]

Arrived today for repair:
A 5050 with a 5+5YY winding for 20S, operated with 18S.

Interestingly, the windings in the 2nd layer without direct stator contact are particularly affected.
On the other hand, the windings on the outside of the hammer heads, which supposedly (according to theory) should see the most current (because of induced reactive power plus bifilar winding) are okay.

We had observed the same effect several times before.
Theory vs. practice....

In addition, the windings in flight attitude above are usually more affected than those below.
But we've had it before.

By the way, the lower half of the picture shows the initial state.


Really so why do your motors have such idle currents. You have affected nothing in industry with a post on the German social media when the data shows clearly the same poor effect of large parallel strands no different than anyone else. Unpublished non peer reviewed comments dont mean much to me because as a whole time and forum activity have shown u lack the ability to tell the truth.

15 amps at 15.65 volts.
280 watts of loss at idle

The low DC was a wash at lower efficiency.

The motors suffers so much iron loss its nothing but a space heater that will surely fail the PM.

You remember how the 2 strand WYE Black Karma Align easily destroyed the.. noisy 6 strand Delta. Some theory you have! That no Professionals in the field agree with. Continual statement teamed with absent specification is hobbyist manure. Just like the post about the inverters letting me know not even ohms law reaches you. I sure you have more of your own theories that disproves it too. This is why I wait for your induction into ABB's hal of fame.....for you UNPUBLISHED work and post on the German social media that puts their proven and industry used theories . If the EV motors lasted as long as your knockers the industry would be in real trouble. It isn't much to compare since all their motors are at least 3% higher than anything you've ever wound.... These are measured facts not theory. You also have no measure of reactive power because you do not own a PA or use your scope with voltage/current measurement particularly well . You just posting on the German social media alot of nonsense because this is what your motor does on the bench.

The EV Drs motors dont fail the rotors in a few runs.

[Clugh]

As a professional in the Field It is really hard to have a technical conversation with a hobbyist that does not even recognize the importance of an inverters internal resistance. Some one think they get a boost from some "phantom" power not supplied by the supply I guess. They think the YGE can make something from nothing but it burns doing so and the engines show the effects of overloading as they certainly exceed 100C.What is your REAL theory about the burned windings, insulation, and thermally damaged rotor your motors display in their intended application. Why lie because the wires definitely see a different current in the slot that's no theory. The outer wires have nothing to do with reactive power. They surfer proximity loss because of slot leakage so i don't even really know the chinglish you speak. I just know u like axial bifilar stacks which are ill advised and the result of your theories many times lie right b4 your eyes. Your ego lives in deep denial. You see were also considerably slower then Dzhamel APD powered Typhoon with your 592 and burned YGE.....🤐

Please post more of your hobbyist Theories.... u killin me with these silly remote terminal post where you ignore you own empirical result😀

[Clugh]

And all the ENDFEST does what its only stable to 120C your clearly above that at Demag so id does nothing but soften and further insulate the winidings from cooling. Excess does nothing to improve things or really prevent failure. Air cant even get in between the teeth with this. I cant believe the producer would question another companies ISO quality standards when you look at what that editor has here.

[Clugh]

This is encapsulated with crystal clear high temp epoxy. Stable to 200C the best way is VIP impregnation with no excess.

Maybe you can see it between the conductor coils....I dunno👀

But it wont fail unless the wire insulation does at 200C. Everything is dead there.

[Clugh]

Thermally Conductive Adhesives - Epoxies - Urethanes | Appli-Tec and

Also the Kapton we wound with years ago you use is the wrong kind. There's a new from DuPont with high thermally conductivity but hobbyist want motors that deliver the juice under 100C in the first place.. Germany is special for sure but In American we rate full power as defined up to 100C.

Encapsulating the windings with a material that is not stable at the seen temperatures is Dr Ralph Okon's theory that empirically falls apart at 120C.

[Clugh]

And if Kapton is your choice you use the wrong kind...
Kapton® MT+ Higher Thermally Conductive Film (dupont.com)

And its no doubt old style kapton failed in the dream liner. Do you know anything about American aviation history? You must not Borat!. As wire Insulation after it is was cooked brittle from thermal cycling like your in your motors. In that state its as reactive as gunpowder to a spark . Its proven and also amazing that you think you TRUMP the FAA investigators despite all your customers black box flights. Maybe you should call them in next time for a real assessment of the crashes.

[Clugh]

Hi Borat,
Saw your pos #500 on the German social media.I wont waste time re posting It because we stopped buying the wunderbar years ago.😀

So we are clear ..... Kapton withstanding 400C does not have anything to do with the thermal conductivity.


The measurements have shown that with the same DC current, the winding layers reach a significantly lower maximum temperature when Kapton® MT+ Film is used for the slot insulation. At a temperature level of 100 °C, the stationary end temperature of the coil is reduced by 20 K with the new insulation paper, by 26 K at 150 °C and by 45 K at 200 °C. This is due to the significantly better heat dissipation properties of the new insulation paper (SlotC) in the slot, which has a three times better thermal conductivity.


~FRAUNHOFER INSTITUTE FOR MANUFACTURING TECHNOLOGY AND ADVANCED MATERIALS IFA~

Make sure you know this was examined, so if u speak against it be sure to post your experimentation equipment and methodology. All that is included in their examination.

🙈🙉🙊

[Clugh]

Wunderbar....Borat! because the Kapton used in the Dreamliner is also of a totally different blend.

[Clugh]

In the future b4 u toss my name into the hat on RC GROUPS Borat maybe you should look here and wonder who told DZHAMEL to use my exact version of the APD which is the 20s version. Lucas and Steve know I beta tested the prototype and had the COTS inverter b4 any of the forum experts on the subject matter. Remember the hobby forums in question didn't even know what the balanced cap bank looked like until I showed them. Even though its true about higher voltage I never told him that and I don't run SLS batteries to know anything about their configurations. They don't even ship to the US AFAIK Im running SMC drag packs but SMC makes packs for all the amperage abusive hobbyist. However 20-30 pilots worldwide are really nothing for sales to particularly cater to,.,, Funny thing about these exclusive specialty groups and click like F3S is if you dont grow the sport it dies. U should be teaching the youth the new winds and but unfortunately the are not served well there on the German social media.

[Clugh]

If its a low voltage high amperage setup you should utilize lithium super caps N E WAY. I told Christian this years ago. His friends on the boating forum denied them because they had a higher ESR than Electrolytics it and now they are available from the manufactures anyway. Guess I won that debate. Capacitance as a whole works best when its a complimentary system of bulk electrolytics with ceramic compliments in the first place. There is absolutely no reason a super cap could not cover the low end additionally.

Old news

29.March.2014, 10:52#59
cohesive

Gesperrt Registriert seit 28.11.2012 Ort usa Beiträge 221

1395816848569.jpg
Thats nice It makes me wonder how 5 d-sized 300 farad maxwells can start an automobile. I guess they do that as well as the things mentioned about supercaps below supplying current in the milli amps?

Low amperage ideas:


"Supercapacitors or UltraCapacitors were initially used by the US military to start the engines of tanks and submarines. Most applications now are in small appliances, handheld electronics and hybrid electric vehicles.

NASA has a research project to use supercapacitors in an electric bus called the Hybrid Electric Transit Bus. The energy used to start the engine and accelerate the bus is regenerated from braking. During test runs, a bus loaded with 30 supercapacitors, each of them weighing 32 kg and releasing energy of 50 kJ at 200 V managed to run for four miles.

GM Super CapacitorIn most hybrid vehicles, 42 V super capacitors are used. General Motors has developed a pickup truck with a V8 engine that uses the supercapacitor / ultra capacitor to replace the battery. The efficiency of the engine rose by 14%. The supercapacitor supplies energy to the alternator. Toyota has developed a diesel engine using the same technology and it is claimed to use just 2.7 liters of fuel per 100 km."





~ http://supercapacitors.org/ ~

112311051947.jpg At far right a special lot of Low ESR 100 volts caps for my Ultra HV BLDC prototype. I know about AL electrolytics, but there has got to be a way or will be a way to utilize such wonderful capacitance in a compact form factor.


16 rows of 12 paralleled for (192) 37.5 mohms or 2,126 paralleled AL's at a much lower ESR. whats better? Considering all things. What would happen if I introduced ceramics on top of the supers? do you think the idea of 1 farad is simply overkill? In car stereo which you mentioned AL 1 farads are common in 1000 -1500 watt setups and the headlights still dim with 775 CCA batteries on the low frequency transients 1500 watts. We're running 10kw or more.
Whats that gonna do?

You know you and your friends on German social media have a problem accepting solution no emanating from them. So like anything else the overall result ended with more epithet from Lucas when he sees and old volvo 4 cylinder that makes more hp than his exotica car$$ and that didn't end well. I've known who he really is a long time., The Ferrari antics in the middle of threads is nothing new for me 😀

[Clugh]

* Charge time- 20 seconds
* Capacitance- 30 farad
* Input Voltage- 6-14v
* Max Charge Current- 3.5 amps

The problem is as you can see is you all know everything thing and know one can tell yawl anything...look at yourself you argue with ABB's million in R&D. Image what 3o farads would look like in electrolytics at 20 volts. U really have to be crazy if you think it would fit in an rc model...Thats just plain silly. When what you see is in the microfarads from YGE's largest cap bank. See the supercap in hobby? I told them in 2014 oh well..... check when this thing came out.... 🙈🙉🙊

[Clugh]

What Dzhamel needs is a new motor and winder that will tell you what going on with his motors without the wunderbar.


"Here is a maximum winding of a P900-45 for speed application, for which the stator insulation has also been removed.
The manufacturing quality is still top-class, if you disregard the loveless original winding with 4+3x 2x1.06mm D, which only allows 180A even without the semi-professional parallel connection already discussed.
With an 8+7x 1.5mm DD winding, the current load could be increased to 360A and the filling level increased to 215%, which made it 60g heavier, but 100% more power for 9% more weight is a fair exchange.
The specific speed has also been lowered somewhat, with 24° timing it is 470rpm, ideal for running a PC 11x27 three-blade with 16000U at 42V at 330A and 580km/h.

The synclost is 340A, which means that the motor itself protects its winding, which is achieved by using a lot of copper and a specific speed that is not too high and thus lower synclost.
The weight is now 740g but the speed conversion comes as shown below on the P1000, by exchanging with a titanium shaft you save 40g so that you end up at about 700g.
This results in a power-to-weight ratio of 21.5W/g, which is a good value for this weight class and speed.

I find the comparison with the old iron pig HK4550 interesting which I recently had for repair, both motors produce 15kW up to the synclost at 16000U, only the 4550 lives up to its name and simply weighs 35% more.
There you can see what can be done with good construction and the higher torque density of a 14 pole, so that you are happy to do without 2% effect.

What I found even more interesting was that I was able to verify my observations on the synclost calculation.
This means that with the same cut and magnet system, the Synclost only depends on the number of turns and the current, also independent of the stator height, which I have already observed with 5 different cuts with different stator heights.
The synclost always takes place at the same magnetic flux in a cut/magnet system, and it doesn't matter whether it is generated from 10 turns of 100A or 20 turns of 50A.
My P1000 now has the same winding with 15 turns on it and has the same synclost at 342A even though it is 10mm higher.
Previously, when there were 18 turns on it, the synclost was at 285A, i.e. ultimately the same generated flux 18W x 285A = 15W x 342A"

~Audiosmith~

If any of you all know DZHAMEL and are on RC Groups please pm him this link so he can get the facts. They wasting the modelers money with motor repairs galore. The scorpions motor are clearly overloaded when they kill the magnets and 200c insulation

Borat will reply remotely somewhere that he evaluated for Kontronics and the scorpion motors are essentially the same. It simply isnt true but thats been the wunderbar that always comes after people ask about the Pyro and its differences .

[Clugh]

Only egg headed Christian would think the DEEP DRIVE 1.0 mW solutions viable to hobbyist when first people just cant place the copper in better locations of the slot for a start to improvement. The reason the simple hybrid windings are CURRENTLY used in EV industry is because they work are easy and cost alot less😀 The windings dont care if the motor has pms of not.

[Clugh]

DeepDrive

The deep drive Lucas is talking about is nothing more than a dual rotor axial flux with hairpin windings with an integrated inverter using SiCFets. Basically it is everything we've gone over a million times all incorporated into one engine. I haven't really looked at it but f it has no PM then it probably has DC field coils There is a port of the PMFSM Permanent Magnet Fux Switching Machine that used dc field coils versus PM in the stator teeth. It is a port of a synchronous SRM. I have a 50mm cad model of the PMFSM based off an IEEE academic work. The only thing would be new is the execution in hobby by a truly advanced modeler that is actually RC active in years.

See the torque profile

[Clugh]

I have several models that are old news at this point. Someone or myself needs to build it but then there is also the inverter solution for the machine. The IEEE seniors have all the answers. You wont find them on the hobby forums. Open source environments with Pavel's software engineers at ZUBAX can also manage something I'm sure.

[Clugh]

Borat

You speak of theory versus practice but dont realize its all theory. You cannot thermally evaluate a working winding on a dead motor with your eyeballs. . Do you think that what you THINK somehow legitimizes your statements on practice versus theory. Its a pretty poor evaluation considering all the heat insulation gobs of endfest epoxy will bring. Not to mention its a dead motor evaluation with no control. The truth is your theories dont come with any control, supportive data, or scientific methodology . Thats never posted..... so the later is baseless theory or its based on your eyeball evaluations after the fact. Thats no real evaluation science or academia would pay any merit to. Much more work is required for the Hubertus award. Its just gibberish... they use mathematics, analytical tools, and empirical results to come to their well thought out examined and Published theory. Enjoy the German social media where you factually don't know thermally what's happening during running because you have never looked and actually recorded any data on winding temperatures etc.....🙈🙉🙊


Here is what the people have done that brings industry the ideas yoiu have trumped in a few minutes with your eyeballs

Mircea Popescu (M’98, SM’04) received the Ph.D. degree and Doctor of Science degree in electrical engineering from University “Politehnica” Bucharest, Romania and Helsinki University of Technology, Finland, respectively. He has more than 25 years of experience in electrical motor design and analysis. He worked for the Research Institute for Electrical Machines, Bucharest, Romania, Helsinki University of Technology, Finland and SPEED Laboratory, Glasgow University, U.K. Since 2008 he has been the Engineering Manager for Motor Design Ltd., Ellesmere, U.K. He has published over 100 papers in conferences and peer reviewed journals. He is the recipient of the first prize, best paper award from IEEE IAS EMC in 2002, 2006, 2008. He acts as Technical Vice-Chair for ECCE (Energy Conversion Congress and Exhibition) and Vice-Chair of IEEE IAS Electrical Machines Committee. He is also an Associate Editor for IEEE Transactions on Industry Applications.

David Alan Staton (M’90) received the Ph.D. degree in computer-aided design of electrical machines from Sheffield University, Sheffield, U.K., in 1988. He was with Thorn EMI, the SPEED Laboratory, Glasgow University, U.K., and Control Techniques, U.K., where he worked on motor design and, particularly, the development of motor design software. Since 1999, he has been with Motor Design Ltd., Ellesmere, U.K., which is a new company that he set up to develop thermal analysis software for electrical machines. He has more than 50 papers published in conference proceedings and peer-reviewed journals.

David George Dorrell (M’95, SM’08) is a native of St Helens, UK, and has a BEng (Hons) degree (1988), MSc degree (1989) and PhD degree (1993). He has held lecturing positions with The Robert Gordon University and The University of Reading. He was a Senior Lecturer with The University of Glasgow, UK, for several years. In 2008 he took up a post with The University of Technology Sydney, Australia, and he was promoted to Associate Professor in 2009. He is also an Adjunct Associate Professor with The National Cheng Kung University, Taiwan. His research interests cover the design and analysis of various electrical machines and also renewable energy systems with over 150 technical publications to his name, including over 50 IEEE Transactions papers and co-authorship of a book on bearingless machines. He is a Chartered Engineer in the UK and a Fellow of the IET. He has sat on IET Council and is active in local area networks. He has acted as a publications chair for IEEE Magnetics Society INTERMAG Conference and also for COMPUMAG. He has also been a guest Editor for the Transactions on Industrial Electronics and is an Associate Editor for the Transactions on Industry Applications. He has won the IEE Cromption Premium in 1996 and two IEEE IAS Electrical Machine Committee prizes.

Douglas Hawkins received the B.Eng degree in electrical and electronic engineering from the University of Glasgow, U.K. in 1991. From 1991 to 2005 he worked on software control systems on various large projects at GEC Alsthom Traction Ltd., Thomson Marconi Sonar Ltd. and Teleca Ltd. Since 2005 he has been the Software Manager at Motor Design Ltd., Ellesmere, U.K.

Then here are the peer reviewed references of this type of work that is accepted in motorworld. The type or size of the machine doesnt change alot about how to optimized them. They all benifits of lower space and subharmonics . No motor like high proximity or skin losses. The little knockers are no different. What was on the particular machine in question was the lack of detail and non uniformity in the poor application of the incorrect encapsulation material.

[Clugh]

Study of the Thermal Aspects in Brushless Permanent Magnet Machines Performance
Mircea Popescu, Senior Member, IEEE,David A. Staton, Member, IEEE, David G. Dorrell, Senior Member, IEEE and Douglas Hawkins

[1] www.arnoldmagnetics.com
[2] C.R. Sullivan, "Optimal choice for number of strands in a litz-wire transformer winding" IEEE Trans. on Power Electronics., Vol. 14, Iss. 2, 1999 , pp 283 - 291.
[3] J. McCabe, “Beating The Heat: Temperature Control Of A HighPerformance Spindle”, National Center for Manufacturing Sciences, 2005
[4] R. Wrobel, J. Goss, A. Mlot, P. Mellor, “Design considerations of a brushless open-slot radial-flux PM hub motor”, Proceedings of IEEE ECCE 2012, Raleigh, NC, pp. 3678-3685
[5]. G. Bertotti, “General properties of power losses in soft ferromagnetic materials,” IEEE Trans. on MAG, vol. 24, no. 1, pp. 621–630, Jan. 1988
[6]. G. Bertotti, “Hysteresis in magnetics,” Academic Press, San Diego, 1998
[7]. D. Ionel, M. Popescu, S. J. Dellinger, T. J. E. Miller, R. J. Heideman, and M. I. McGilp, “On the variation with flux and frequency of the core loss coefficients in electrical machines,” IEEE Transactions on Industry Appl. – Vol. 42, No. 3, May/June 2006, pp. 658-667
[8]. M. Popescu and D. M. Ionel, “A best-fit model of power losses in cold rolled motor lamination steel operating in a wide range of frequency and induction,” in IEEE Transactions on Magnetics. – Vol. 43, No. 4, April 2007, pp. 1753 – 1756
[9]. D. Ionel, M. Popescu, S. J. Dellinger, T. J. E. Miller, R. J. Heideman, and M. I. McGilp, “Computation of core losses in electrical machines using improved models for laminated steel” IEEE Transactions on Industry Appl. – Vol. 43, No. 6, Nov/Dec 2007, pp. 1554-1564
[10]. A. Boglietti, A. Cavagnino, M. Lazzari, and M. Pastorelli, “Predicting iron losses in soft magnetic materials with arbitrary voltage supply: an engineering approach,” IEEE Trans. on MAG, vol. 39, no. 2, pp. 981– 989, Mar. 2003.
[11] Staton, D.A., Boglietti, A., Cavagnino, A.: 'Solving the More Difficult Aspects of Electric Motor Thermal Analysis in Small and Medium Size Industrial Induction Motors'; IEEE Transactions on Energy Conversion, Volume 20, Issue 3, Sept. 2005 Page(s): 620 – 628
[12] Boglietti, A., Cavagnino, A., Pastorelli, M., Staton, D.A., Vagati, A. : 'Thermal Analysis of Induction and Synchronous Reluctance Machines', IEMDC 2005, San Antonio, USA, May 2005
[13] Chin, Y.K., Nordlund, E., Staton, D.A.: 'Thermal Analysis - Lumped Circuit Model and Finite Element Analysis', Sixth International Power Engineering Conference (IPEC2003), pp. 952 - 957, Singapore, 27 - 29 November, 2003
[14] Chin, Y.K., Staton, D.A.: 'Transient Thermal Analysis using both Lumped-Circuit Approach and Finite Element Method of a Permanent Magnet Traction Motor', IEEE Africon, pp. 1027 - 1035, Gaborone, Botswana, September 2004
[15] Dorrell, D.G., Staton, D.A., McGilp, M.I., 'A Combined Electromagnetic and Thermal Approach to the Design of Electrical Machines' IECON 2006, Paris, Nov 2006 [16] Dorrell, D.G., Staton, D.A., Hahout, J., Hawkins, D., McGilp, M.I., 'Linked Electromagnetic and Thermal Modelling of a Permanent Magnet Motor', PEMD 2006, Dublin, April 2006.
[17] Dorrell, D.G., Staton, D.A., McGilp, M.I., 'Design of Brushless Permanent Magnet Motors - A Combined Electromagnetic and Thermal Approach for High Performance' IECON 2006, Paris, Nov 2006
[18] Wrobel, R., McNeill, N., Staton, D. A., Booker, J. D., Mellor, P. H.: 'Torque Dense, External Rotor Hub-Drive for a Hybrid Solar Vehicle', 2006 IEEE Vehicle Power and Propulsion Conference VPPC 2006, Windsor, UK, 6-8 Sept., 2006
[19] Miller, T.J.E., SPEED’s Electric Motors, CD-adapco, 2012
[20] www.motor-design.com
[21] Lim C.H. et al, “2-D Lumped-parameter thermal modeling of axial flux permanent magnet generatiors”, Proceedings of ICEM 2008, Villamoura, Portugal, 2008
[22] Marignetti F. and Delli Colli V. “Thermal analysis of an axial flux permanent-magnet synchronous machine”, IEEE Trans. On MAG. Vol., 45, No. 7, pp. 2970-2975, July 2009

You trump it all on the German social media based on your visual observations of this:


Thats absolutely ridiculous scientific method Ralph no real Electrical Dr Does it. See them all? But Obviously that doesn't translate well to Army Md's

[Clugh]

In their world of THEORY versus yours they measure the wire temps in different location in addition to the mathematical calculations. What supports you posted "practice"?

Published works come with things like this to bolster theory. Powerditto is simply social media. See the professional and academic references it comes with