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Two brown outs, loss of signal within two weeks, JR X9303 DSM2

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  • Two brown outs, loss of signal within two weeks, JR X9303 DSM2

    Few weeks ago acquired a Sukhoi (ver.1, green, electric of course), with a included Orange-rx DSM2, which bound quick to my JR X9303. It flew fine at the club, no issues, everything good. Then one specific day it momentarily loss signal at about 100 feet altitude and about the same in distance from me, dead, no control, pointed nose down and buried into the corn field, destroyed. Brought it back and immediately did a range test, (depressing rear button and walking 30 paces or 100 feet), passed, all servos working, fine.

    Took it home and into the parts bin until further notice when I get the energy to work on it. Yesterday took my Phoenix Sonic low wing, MK2, after flying it most of the week, and all of a sudden while bringing it back for landing after about 9 min of normal flying, airplane non responsive, stayed banking left at full speed, no elevator, no throttle back, I even told the guys, "I lost it", and definitely so it buried into the corn field, once again. This time about 100 feet altitude and maybe 300 feet away from the tx. I checked the 4-cell rx Spektrum 1100mah Spektrum battery before take off, and afterwards, a healthy 5.3v, and tx 10.5v. After the crash did a range check, passed, all good. On both occasions tx antenna in an angle as it is recommended.

    On the Sukhoi it had a Orange rx receiver, and in the Phoenix a Lemon-rx receiver, both 6-channel. Opened the tx to see, but no loose cables/connectors or cable chafing.

    I got a spare Lemon-rx DSM2 receiver with satellite, and will install that on a trainer, and upgrade the receiver battery to 5-cell to see if that eliminates the problem. I read for electric to use a spare rx battery instead of getting power from the lipo battery. Currently, only flying airplanes on PCM/PPM. Or I may ditch the 2.4ghz and stay with my Futaba T6XA PCM/PPM and buy the same crystals for all my airplanes, 6 model memory.

  • #2
    Originally posted by crankestein View Post
    Few weeks ago acquired a Sukhoi (ver.1, green, electric of course), with a included Orange-rx DSM2, which bound quick to my JR X9303. It flew fine at the club, no issues, everything good. Then one specific day it momentarily loss signal at about 100 feet altitude and about the same in distance from me, dead, no control, pointed nose down and buried into the corn field, destroyed. Brought it back and immediately did a range test, (depressing rear button and walking 30 paces or 100 feet), passed, all servos working, fine.

    Took it home and into the parts bin until further notice when I get the energy to work on it. Yesterday took my Phoenix Sonic low wing, MK2, after flying it most of the week, and all of a sudden while bringing it back for landing after about 9 min of normal flying, airplane non responsive, stayed banking left at full speed, no elevator, no throttle back, I even told the guys, "I lost it", and definitely so it buried into the corn field, once again. This time about 100 feet altitude and maybe 300 feet away from the tx. I checked the 4-cell rx Spektrum 1100mah Spektrum battery before take off, and afterwards, a healthy 5.3v, and tx 10.5v. After the crash did a range check, passed, all good. On both occasions tx antenna in an angle as it is recommended.

    On the Sukhoi it had a Orange rx receiver, and in the Phoenix a Lemon-rx receiver, both 6-channel. Opened the tx to see, but no loose cables/connectors or cable chafing.

    I got a spare Lemon-rx DSM2 receiver with satellite, and will install that on a trainer, and upgrade the receiver battery to 5-cell to see if that eliminates the problem. I read for electric to use a spare rx battery instead of getting power from the lipo battery. Currently, only flying airplanes on PCM/PPM. Or I may ditch the 2.4ghz and stay with my Futaba T6XA PCM/PPM and buy the same crystals for all my airplanes, 6 model memory.
    Cranke..........the most probable explanation for your unfortunate bites in the arse is that your Tx/Rx technology is of the DSM2 genre and that tech had it's big issues with exactly what you experienced and is exactly why the industry stepped up and went away from it to the DSMX tech. Early in my re-entry period to the hobby with 2.4Ghx radios I had a couple incidents with DSM2 going stupid. Been using DSMX for the past years and not a issue except for one which was June of 2016 @ NEFI and I lost a Seagull Skyraider (Cap'n Mike was witness) in what is now known as the NEFI Triangle because 3 other pilots loss their birds in the exactly same area/same weekend also..........there had to be a radio interference problem there but fortunately nothing this year in that same area.
    Warbird Charlie
    HSD Skyraider FlightLine OV-10 FMS 1400: P-40B, P-51, F4U, F6F, T-28, P-40E, Pitts, 1700 F4U & F7F, FOX glider Freewing A-6, T-33, P-51 Dynam ME-262, Waco TF Giant P-47; ESM F7F-3 LX PBJ-1 EFL CZ T-28, C-150, 1500 P-51 & FW-190

    Comment


    • #3
      I agree, we all shuttered when approaching the Nefi triangle. Dang thing got my P-40 this year, thankfully all rebuilt and back in the air. The big boys in MotionRC are pushing the true diversity rx's now. Personally, I haven't tried one, but the technology is sound. Literally in my case. Back in the day, when I was a Rock Star ;) I used a true diversity wireless system, it was great for no loss of signal or worse, picking up radio signals in the middle of a performance. Then same could be said for R/C, radio interference could have played a part in you unfortunate mishaps.
      Personally, I took CB's advice and have been using the 10 channel Lemons. At $30 per, you can't go wrong and they are DSMX and they come with a satellite antenna. Still, at some point I plane on trying the True Diversity system as well.

      Grossman56
      Team Gross!

      Comment


      • #4
        Here they are... the Phoenix is a cheap airplane, but man was it like a knife cutting through the air, track like on rails, and the Thunder Tiger .42 GP, extremely easy to tune, good power, never dead stick, very efficient on fuel consumption +10 minutes of hard flying. Suffered broken carb, the engine is discontinued so difficult to find spare.

        Currently looking at Futaba Txs, 8 to 14 channel. Not very familiar w all new technology, reading something about FASSTT or something like that which is better. Will check the motion rc equipment as well.

        Comment


        • #5
          I have modern Futaba, Spektrum and Tactic radios and use them all regularly but if I had to go with one it would be the new Spektrum DX8, it has very smooth gimbals, great battery life and has easy to use menu system. With so many planes coming with BNF (Bind and Fly) AS3X receivers the Spektrum is a must have to me.
          TiredIron Aviation
          Tired Iron Military Vehicles

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by crankestein View Post
            Currently looking at Futaba Txs, 8 to 14 channel. Not very familiar w all new technology, reading something about FASSTT or something like that which is better. Will check the motion rc equipment as well.
            Futaba FASST tech is just another approach to the frequency hopping(FHSS) that Spektrum DSMX uses also.
            To say that one or the other is better is conjecture and is like getting into the Ford/GM/Chrysler opinion debate.;)
            Warbird Charlie
            HSD Skyraider FlightLine OV-10 FMS 1400: P-40B, P-51, F4U, F6F, T-28, P-40E, Pitts, 1700 F4U & F7F, FOX glider Freewing A-6, T-33, P-51 Dynam ME-262, Waco TF Giant P-47; ESM F7F-3 LX PBJ-1 EFL CZ T-28, C-150, 1500 P-51 & FW-190

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by crankestein View Post
              Here they are... the Phoenix is a cheap airplane, but man was it like a knife cutting through the air, track like on rails, and the Thunder Tiger .42 GP, extremely easy to tune, good power, never dead stick, very efficient on fuel consumption +10 minutes of hard flying. Suffered broken carb, the engine is discontinued so difficult to find spare.

              Currently looking at Futaba Txs, 8 to 14 channel. Not very familiar w all new technology, reading something about FASSTT or something like that which is better. Will check the motion rc equipment as well.
              What's powering the orange rx?

              Comment


              • #8
                *ok, so then its just marketing hype

                *40amp ESC, 3S 2200mah (balanced charged Hitec X2), had about 10 flights before the loss of signal happened. And it was evident, by itself as if it was possessed, pulled up, then shut down, dropped nose first and straight into the ground. Strange enough aileron and rudder was working, but not elevator. All linkages secured, no loose rods from servos to control surfaces. As if someone else was moving elevator. Once back to the car, all fine... and again tested at home.

                About the DSM2, I read from Horizon Hobby there was a recall on DSMx, but not on DSM2. The guy who had the orange rx, as I acquired it used from another club member friend, never had any signal issues. I dont think he sold me defective equipment knowing it can put at risk others or myself at the club. All in all, if am going to stay on this hobby might as well buy a good quality radio that will grow with me, and have them all in one device. Its just what a way to learn... it wasnt that much money after all, I just dont want to be crashing any more planes due to loss of signal.

                I did like a lot the features of the JR X9303, not sure if its rx or tx problem, just discard and start from scratch w new electronics.


                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by crankestein View Post
                  *ok, so then its just marketing hype

                  *40amp ESC, 3S 2200mah (balanced charged Hitec X2), had about 10 flights before the loss of signal happened. And it was evident, by itself as if it was possessed, pulled up, then shut down, dropped nose first and straight into the ground. Strange enough aileron and rudder was working, but not elevator. All linkages secured, no loose rods from servos to control surfaces. As if someone else was moving elevator. Once back to the car, all fine... and again tested at home.

                  About the DSM2, I read from Horizon Hobby there was a recall on DSMx, but not on DSM2. The guy who had the orange rx, as I acquired it used from another club member friend, never had any signal issues. I dont think he sold me defective equipment knowing it can put at risk others or myself at the club. All in all, if am going to stay on this hobby might as well buy a good quality radio that will grow with me, and have them all in one device. Its just what a way to learn... it wasnt that much money after all, I just dont want to be crashing any more planes due to loss of signal.

                  I did like a lot the features of the JR X9303, not sure if its rx or tx problem, just discard and start from scratch w new electronics.

                  10 flights before loss of signal? What voltage was your rx pack at before the last flight?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sukhoi power from the lipo, esc, 4.18v per cell at least.

                    Sonic, Spektrum receiver pack, 1100mah, 5.2/5.3v after the crash, checked with a Hobbico volt meter.

                    Did a few flight with the Sonic which has the TT GP .32, and in between flew another plane that is frequency, and on the meantime charged the receiver pack using one of those portable 12 volt chargers,Hobbico Accu-Cycle battery charger. The only difference is mine is not digital.
                    .
                    The receiver pack is 4 cell, I may go 5 cell. All in all, reading what others have said, its time to upgrade to newer technology.

                    Surveying the situation, no airplanes (two at this time), no engine, no radio... basically back to nothing, awesome.

                    At the beginning the issue was dead sticks, etc, but this ordeal of DSM2 and loss of signal is ridiculous.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The plan is to upgrade all electronics to a Futaba 10JA. Another friend of mine had a similar loss of signal on a Spektrum, w brand receivers, not (3rd party) Orange or Lemon receivers.

                      He was flying his airplane at the field, on its own rolled and stopped responding, straight to the ground and destroyed. He had it on dsmx programming if I recall well.

                      Thankfully I still have some airplanes on analog radios, which I can fly no problems. Maybe for smaller airplanes I'll have them on PPM which it is a old transmitter, but the T6XA is extremely reliable and glitch free.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've been using Spektrum AR400/AR600's w/DM-9 2.4 module on my JR10X over 6yrs now & NEVER experienced a so-called "brownout" or issues with range or reliability. Every complaint with Spektrum Rx's is in all probability a Rx voltage issue & generally with wiring or connections........NOT THE FAULT OF THE Rx!!!!! The "Orange" Rx's have been proven to be quite unreliable & some "Lemons" had range issues, so please don't infer they are better than genuine Spektrum. I also still fly on 72Mhz with a couple of my older JR Tx's that have been flawless as always. My JR10X is absolutely the easiest computer radio to program with the touchscreen & gives me every flight command I will ever need for my flying parameters since I don't need any exotic flight attributes. I found Futaba programming to be a real nightmare, so be sure you want to go that route. Just MHO. Choose at your will & enjoy success or frustration.

                        Denny
                        *** \"A man\'s word is his honor....without honor there is nothing.\" ***
                        *** I have no hesitation to kill nor reservation to die for the Flag & Constitution of the USA. ***

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I never infer they are better than genuine, the technology itself is unreliable. The same way you have your opinion, I also got mine.
                          Already has been covered, I always check receiver pack voltage before every take off with the Hobbico tester (and it is not defective).

                          Right on the crash site, without even touching the plane, did a range check, and worked fine, it had the servo connector locks as well. I have had rc nitro cars for years, and two stroke 1/5th scale 4wd and a Baja, both with a 30.5cc, those things are bashed to the ground, and never suffered (exactly all or nothing thinking) a loose connection. Trucks that are jumped, pushed, around in dirt and gravel. At the other side, two airplanes in almost two weeks, naah, connection is not the problem, and I did not see any loose wires etc. Also checked the transmitter and the Horizon Hobby recall was performed on it, of the aileron wire staffing.

                          In the field and online, one common name is always in the conversation, JR/Spektrum. Just because your car was not recalled, or does not suffer the symptoms of a manufacturer's recall/defect, does not mean there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Its good to hear part of the crowd does have a reliable system under the protocol in discussion, it makes the argument more valid.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Brown outs are 100% installation error in that the RX system has not be supplied an adequate power source.

                            If voltage doesn't drop, it won't brown out. voltage drop indicates something is causing whatever is supplying the RX to be unable to supply adequate current. That might be an inadequate BEC or battery or too light gauge wire between power source and RX or a switch that can't handle the current or expecting the 7 amp MAX rating the connector pins commonly used in the RX to handle the servo loads in flight.

                            Put a current and voltage logger in and measure what you are really demanding from your RX power supply.
                            I have one of the Dimension Engineering "Servo Sense Plus" loggers. (Discontinued by Dimension engineering and then sold by Common Sense RC for a few years, not sure if available now)
                            I also have the Spektrum telemetry system which can be set for a low RX voltage alarm and logs the data in a file on the TX's SIM card.

                            After investigating the brown out issue, it became obvious that a lot of the 72 mhz "glitches were actually the 72 mhz systems dropping offline due to lack of RX power (people pulling enough current through the junk OEM switch harnesses to drop voltage below 2.5 v at the RX.) Proven with ground tests of some people's models that constantly had problems and just rapidly moving the sticks.
                            The switch harnesses we got used to using act as resistors above 5 amp load and its easy to pull 12 amps with the servos under flight loads with a common .60ci glow power model.
                            FF gliders and rubber power since 1966, CL 1970-1990, RC since 1975.

                            current planes from 1/2 oz to 22 lbs

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by crankestein View Post
                              I never infer they are better than genuine, the technology itself is unreliable. The same way you have your opinion, I also got mine.
                              Already has been covered, I always check receiver pack voltage before every take off with the Hobbico tester (and it is not defective).

                              Right on the crash site, without even touching the plane, did a range check, and worked fine, it had the servo connector locks as well. I have had rc nitro cars for years, and two stroke 1/5th scale 4wd and a Baja, both with a 30.5cc, those things are bashed to the ground, and never suffered (exactly all or nothing thinking) a loose connection. Trucks that are jumped, pushed, around in dirt and gravel. At the other side, two airplanes in almost two weeks, naah, connection is not the problem, and I did not see any loose wires etc. Also checked the transmitter and the Horizon Hobby recall was performed on it, of the aileron wire staffing.

                              In the field and online, one common name is always in the conversation, JR/Spektrum. Just because your car was not recalled, or does not suffer the symptoms of a manufacturer's recall/defect, does not mean there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Its good to hear part of the crowd does have a reliable system under the protocol in discussion, it makes the argument more valid.
                              Am very interested to understand the informational foundation to support that claim.
                              Warbird Charlie
                              HSD Skyraider FlightLine OV-10 FMS 1400: P-40B, P-51, F4U, F6F, T-28, P-40E, Pitts, 1700 F4U & F7F, FOX glider Freewing A-6, T-33, P-51 Dynam ME-262, Waco TF Giant P-47; ESM F7F-3 LX PBJ-1 EFL CZ T-28, C-150, 1500 P-51 & FW-190

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                100%, the Spektrum will "brown out" if voltage drops below 3.5V at the RX. But the same RX will handle 9.0v direct. That's a wide voltage range allowing use of HV servos with 2S LiPos and no regulator.

                                In EVERY case of "brown out" that actually got testing done, it was found that the RX power supply simply couldn't keep the voltage up under load in flight.

                                Early version Spektrum RXs had to go through a full reboot and link up to the TX (most commonly less than 3 seconds, possibly up to 12 seconds,) Spektrum quickly released a rapid reboot update where the RX "looks for" the TX on the last 2 frequencies (DSM2) that it had been using before searching the 80 frequencies possible, cutting the in flight reset to under 1/2 second. (which is usually fast enough to save the airplane)
                                I'm not sure how the DSMX system handles quick reboot... and by supplying adequate power, I'll never need to know.

                                The others won't (couldn't last time I looked the specifications up) handle the 9.0v direct. To make use of the >7 v power and speed of HV servos you have to use a regulator board to send a different voltage to the servos than what the RX is supplied

                                Smart Fly boards supplying 5.0 regulated to the RX and 6.0v regulated to the servos, RX with priority were becoming common when 2.4 ghz came out. Appx $250 for the unit at the time. (other more expensive ones are out there)

                                There were a lot of complaints about "brown out" when Spektrum came out. Many ESC's had 2 amp BECs and couldn't handle the servo loads in flight. Even the old F-27 (original) Sky Stryker could demand more than its brushed ESC's BEC could supply and Spektrum radios dropped offline in extreme aerobatics.

                                Modern ESCs almost universally have higher capability switching BECs instead of the old low current linear BECs that used to be the norm. The modern BECs waste less power as heat and just do a better job. (and it doesn't cost any more to make the switching BEC than it cost to make the linear ones)

                                Its still 99% USER ERROR (1% equipment failure and it won't have been the RX) when you have Brown Out... Its far less common because most people have learned to give the RX an adequate power source that is reliable. Just the RX indicatign that it had a brown out is proof that the RX worked just as designed until it didn't have the power it needed to work.

                                We got away with a lot of stuff using 72 mhz that taught us bad habits.
                                FF gliders and rubber power since 1966, CL 1970-1990, RC since 1975.

                                current planes from 1/2 oz to 22 lbs

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Easy enough, FHSS, Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum, I will put the test what the receiver for this protocol was designed to do.

                                  10JA and done... I'll report back how much USER ERROR there is

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Measure voltage at the RX under load.

                                    Or you are just fooling yourself
                                    FF gliders and rubber power since 1966, CL 1970-1990, RC since 1975.

                                    current planes from 1/2 oz to 22 lbs

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by fhhuber View Post
                                      Measure voltage at the RX under load.

                                      Or you are just fooling yourself
                                      Suuuuurrreeeeee...

                                      I already explained it is nothing w the battery. Power is from the lipo battery on the brushless. The glow powered battery was from a much bigger airplane flying a .52 Tiger Shark, much heavier airplane and never had a problem. Only difference it was channel 48 instead of 2.4 dsm2. All the mumbo jumbo low voltage fooling myself is done deal, Futaba and never go back not even to pick up any money I lefrbehind...

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        This reminds me of a thread from several years back at another popular rc web site. Pilot has a DX6 and starts having crashes. Everyone tells him how TX must have a bad RF deck and convince him to send TX back to Spektrum. I advise him that brown outs are power related and he should check his TX battery ( 4 AA rechargeable ) and his BEC on his ESC. Other members tell me to go pound sand. Mean while he is explaining all this convoluted testing he is doing with TX batteries, his buddy's TX, planes, etc. Testing methodology was a mess and he proved nothing ( but he thought he had ). I went to PM him as the forum hero's at the other place had his ear. The guy tells me he is an electrical engineer and he knows what he is talking about. Is convinced his 4 AA batteries are good. Sends his TX to Spektrum and it comes back with a clean bill of health. I go away because he is an electrical engineer and knows what he is talking about.

                                        Months later, maybe 6 to 8, he comes back to the thread and makes a post he found the problem to be a power problem. He then promptly locks the thread. :)

                                        I do have a Spektrum DX-9 and a handful of Lemon receivers. Great receivers but like the Spektrum receivers ( all receivers ) you gotta have good clean power to them.

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