Official Freewing 90mm F-4 Phantom II Thread

[RCjetdude]

Ha!!! Amen...... Always Always.. asking my self.... " What did you learn"

And there is no substitute for stick time! KEEP GOING UP!!! I am burning 9 batteries each session now.... really seeing the difference in comfort and ability!

Burning batteries are not a good thing. :)

[Ron1950]

hey Patrick speaking of pancakeing the landing what if you have a navy F4? lol that would be standard operating proceedure

[purduephigam]

Anyone flying with a sound system and larger than a 5000 pack? I've got a Shockwave II with two transducers and a RT 6250 pack balanced, but am now concerned with the added weight.

And for anyone who's curious, the F4 sound clip is disappointing. It does sound cool, but I think was either recorded/produced at a low level (actually the shut down sequence is louder than the engine running). Surely, like all systems, once the thing is in the air the sound system will be obsolete. My A10 however is another story; great effect.

[PhantomNut]

Any news on the Ghost Gray Phantom? I've got my graphics from Callie and I need the airplane! :)

[Hugh Wiedman]

OK, here's something new. Took out the F4 yesterday along with my Spitfire, Stinger and new extreme flight MXS 64" Heavy Metal. One of the guys at our field is known as the EDF jet guy, flying over 1000 flights with his F-14, F-16, A-10, Yak 130 and others so I had him try out the F4 to get all my trims right on. He's flown many of my planes before and in no matter what weather conditions, he's always spot on. 1st flight was good, but he thought the elevator was a bit "twitchy" and sensitive, so we added another 10% expo to that and slightly reduced the take-off and landing flaps. Put in a new battery, checked all the surface throws and linkages again, and he set out for a final trim flight. Got to full speed on the runway and the elevator was non-responsive (first flight lifted off in less than 100 feet). Well, you just know there was a spectacular crash at the end of the runway. Anyone else, including me, I would have said pilot error, not this guy. I even saw he had up elevator on the transmitter, but she stayed "glued" to the runway-as if no elevator or even down elevator. Franco DeMarco, our resident big jet expert with House of Power, was also there and saw this, and none of us could believe what we witnessed.

After the crash, we broke everything down to check servo's, receiver, battery, transmitter, everything, but couldn't find the answer. The elevator servo wire was cut if half (so we stripped it and reconnected it to the receiver to make sure it was working correctly-which it was), but not sure how it got cut, except it was a violent crash. The rudder servo wire and light connection stayed in-tacked though. Thought maybe the EDF managed to cut it on take-off, but ruled that out after taking everything apart.

I already ordered a replacement and filled out a ticket at Motion's suggestion, but doubt we'll ever determine the cause. The servo did work after we re-connected it, but we still think the problem must lie there. The elevator seemed a little too sensitive on the first flight, but on the ground before the 2nd, it seemed to work perfect, up until the jet reached full speed on the runway on the 2nd flight of course.

[RCjetdude]

Sorry to hear. I have seen servos stall and quit working (they go limp) until re-powered and then they seem to work fine. Just happened to a flap servo on my new red Avanti. Full flap landing was fine. Brought the flaps back up after taxi back and one did not respond. I could freely move it but not stripped. Unplugged the battery, plugged it back in and performed at least 10 full cycles of the flaps without a hitch. Your elevator servo may be bad.

[Elbee]

OK, After the crash.

Hugh, She was a beauty. Sorry. Best, LB

[Woodcock]

OK, here's something new. Took out the F4 yesterday along with my Spitfire, Stinger and new extreme flight MXS 64" Heavy Metal. One of the guys at our field is known as the EDF jet guy, flying over 1000 flights with his F-14, F-16, A-10, Yak 130 and others so I had him try out the F4 to get all my trims right on. He's flown many of my planes before and in no matter what weather conditions, he's always spot on. 1st flight was good, but he thought the elevator was a bit "twitchy" and sensitive, so we added another 10% expo to that and slightly reduced the take-off and landing flaps. Put in a new battery, checked all the surface throws and linkages again, and he set out for a final trim flight. Got to full speed on the runway and the elevator was non-responsive (first flight lifted off in less than 100 feet). Well, you just know there was a spectacular crash at the end of the runway. Anyone else, including me, I would have said pilot error, not this guy. I even saw he had up elevator on the transmitter, but she stayed "glued" to the runway-as if no elevator or even down elevator. Franco DeMarco, our resident big jet expert with House of Power, was also there and saw this, and none of us could believe what we witnessed.

After the crash, we broke everything down to check servo's, receiver, battery, transmitter, everything, but couldn't find the answer. The elevator servo wire was cut if half (so we stripped it and reconnected it to the receiver to make sure it was working correctly-which it was), but not sure how it got cut, except it was a violent crash. The rudder servo wire and light connection stayed in-tacked though. Thought maybe the EDF managed to cut it on take-off, but ruled that out after taking everything apart.

I already ordered a replacement and filled out a ticket at Motion's suggestion, but doubt we'll ever determine the cause. The servo did work after we re-connected it, but we still think the problem must lie there. The elevator seemed a little too sensitive on the first flight, but on the ground before the 2nd, it seemed to work perfect, up until the jet reached full speed on the runway on the 2nd flight of course.

That's a real bummer mate. Sorry to hear ya lost it.

Woody

[e4dragongunner]

Sux brother! I lost one too.... Lost orientation. makes me sick to think about!

[e4dragongunner]

Any news on the Ghost Gray Phantom? I've got my graphics from Callie and I need the airplane! :)

Yes.... would love to know.... Also would love to see this as an ARF as well.

[RCjetdude]

You got that fancy new airbrush, just make your own.... One I am doing for TiredIronGRB.

[Woodcock]

Yes.... would love to know.... Also would love to see this as an ARF as well.

How about a kit version, air frame only, for guys that loose the plane but have a lot of surviving hardware?

Woody

[e4dragongunner]

You got that fancy new airbrush, just make your own.... One I am doing for TireIronGRB.

No.... you are Right Steve! :-) I have an arf.F4 .. waiting in the wings..... but need to finish my FMS-109 and FW A-10....

[themudduck]

Put in a new battery, checked all the surface throws and linkages again, and he set out for a final trim flight. Got to full speed on the runway and the elevator was non-responsive (first flight lifted off in less than 100 feet). Well, you just know there was a spectacular crash at the end of the runway....

Hugh, sorry to hear this story. MUCH earlier in this thread there were a few reports of elevator failures, and one of them was mine. The way this plane comes, the elevator servo is connected to the elevator with a pushrod that has an L-bend and plastic keeper. We have found that under heavy load, the plastic keeper can bend and release the L-bend, thus disconnecting the servo from the elevator. Mine happened during straight and level flight, when I noticed that I no longer had any elevator control. My plane was flying perfectly and gaining altitude by itself. Then when I cut power it flopped like a falling leaf into the bushes - fortunately in my case it didn't damage the plane too bady (right before it hit it was mostly horizontal) and I just had some cosmetic repairs to do, replace the nose cone, etc.

I replaced the original pushrod with a heavier one, along with a ball link and metal clevis. Mine is still going strong (there's nothing wrong with the servo). Some people on this forum have also reinforced the servo mount (since it is only glued in the foam, and some people noticed that the servo wasn't glued in very well in some cases). Mine was installed very tightly so I didn't do anything with that.

If your pushrod disconnected, most likely the plane would have taken off by itself under full power even with the elevator disconnected. That is my guess as to what happened.
Here is a picture of what mine looked like right after the crash.

[Monty500]

Hugh, sorry to hear this story. MUCH earlier in this thread there were a few reports of elevator failures, and one of them was mine. The way this plane comes, the elevator servo is connected to the elevator with a pushrod that has an L-bend and plastic keeper. We have found that under heavy load, the plastic keeper can bend and release the L-bend, thus disconnecting the servo from the elevator. Mine happened during straight and level flight, when I noticed that I no longer had any elevator control. My plane was flying perfectly and gaining altitude by itself. Then when I cut power it flopped like a falling leaf into the bushes - fortunately in my case it didn't damage the plane too bady (right before it hit it was mostly horizontal) and I just had some cosmetic repairs to do, replace the nose cone, etc.

I replaced the original pushrod with a heavier one, along with a ball link and metal clevis. Mine is still going strong (there's nothing wrong with the servo). Some people on this forum have also reinforced the servo mount (since it is only glued in the foam, and some people noticed that the servo wasn't glued in very well in some cases). Mine was installed very tightly so I didn't do anything with that.

If your pushrod disconnected, most likely the plane would have taken off by itself under full power even with the elevator disconnected. That is my guess as to what happened.
Here is a picture of what mine looked like right after the crash.

Would a zip tie around the keeper prevent it from opening up under pressure?

[T-CAT]

Would a zip tie around the keeper prevent it from opening up under pressure?

A tight piece of fuel tubing can be worthwhile.

I am a bit surprised to see how the elevator/stabilator servo set-up is. I was expecting a wooden tray or plastic box to mount the servo in, and potentially some dual ball link connectors, one on each end of the pushrod. Better yet, a thicker pushrod, deeper threading, and heavier duty ball links for an area like this would be a good thing to have. Maybe that is a little overdone to do so, but it is better to be on the safe side than not, and I would do the same. It seems like most people are modifying the stock setup for better structural rigidity and reliability.

[icepirate3]

I put a 4-40 push rod, a ball link, and a safety lock kwik link on mine before I ever flew it after reading posts about failures. I too am surprised that FW didn't put a stronger setup for the FF stabs. But as others have said, some will get 100's of problem free flights out of the stock setup, some won't. I don't mind spending a little for added insurance and a bit of peace of mind. On my A6, there are two servos and thin linkages for the FF stab that bent after a couple flights. I plan on putting the same setup in that bird since it's down currently.

[seaviper]

We have found that under heavy load, the plastic keeper can bend and release the L-bend, thus disconnecting the servo from the elevator. Mine happened during straight and level flight, when I noticed that I no longer had any elevator control.

mud...I don't see how straight and level flight puts much if any pressure on that stab. Even takeoff doesn't put that much pressure on the stab. Do you know what that keeper looked like BEFORE the flight? I have been using those kinds of linkages since they came out and have never had one fail. I even flew my L-39 without the keeper on the rudder for several flights with no problem.

I'm thinking the stab got whacked before flight. I know on my F-4 it's easy to hit those elevators when putting it in the car. Did you consider that? It would take quite a force to undo that connection.

Anyway, beefing up the linkage won't hurt. I am not convinced, however, that it is necessary. That being said, I also would like to have seen a box of some kind to screw in the servo.

[themudduck]

mud...I don't see how straight and level flight puts much if any pressure on that stab. Even takeoff doesn't put that much pressure on the stab. Do you know what that keeper looked like BEFORE the flight? I have been using those kinds of linkages since they came out and have never had one fail. I even flew my L-39 without the keeper on the rudder for several flights with no problem.

I'm thinking the stab got whacked before flight. I know on my F-4 it's easy to hit those elevators when putting it in the car. Did you consider that? It would take quite a force to undo that connection.

Anyway, beefing up the linkage won't hurt. I am not convinced, however, that it is necessary. That being said, I also would like to have seen a box of some kind to screw in the servo.

Well, I agree with you that the flying stab shouldn't put a lot of pressure on the linkage. On the flight where I had my incident, I had flow several laps around the field before the accident. Nothing out of the ordinary, I was just flying the pattern. Of course its a pretty heavy bird and it flies fast, so there must be some pressure. But I don't think I would have been able to take off and fly around with a disconnected elevator! Because of the way it flew, I feel like its possible this model could take off by itself and fly for a short time, without the elevator being connected.

I think in my case that the keeper must have popped out while I was pulling elevator through a turn and then it continued flying along level until I noticed it wasn't responding. One of the other squawkers here suggested that I should have installed the L-bend facing downwards (mine was facing upwards). I don't know for sure, its certainly possible that it popped loose as a result of the crash but that wouldn't explain why I lost elevator control in the air.

So it definitely was a bit of a mystery, but I feel a lot more confident with the solid ball-link connector instead of the L-bend. And without a servo mounting box (which would be good) I added a little hot-melt glue to the servo tabs for insurance...

[seaviper]

Yeah it's difficult to figure out exactly what the cause is in these cases. I am glad you got her back with little damage. That's an expensive bird.
I know on mine those elevators get knocked once in a while.