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Should we put Inrunners in all 90mm jets?

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  • Should we put Inrunners in all 90mm jets?

    If we can put a inrunner in every 90mm Freewing PNP 6S jet and get more thrust and more flight time without any weight penalty, what would you guys think? This would include all new and all existing 90mm Freewing jets. Before you answer, there's a catch. If this is possible (need to do more investigation and testing), we think it will increase the cost around $20 to $30 per 90mm 6S PNP jet. I'd like to get some feedback about this from the HS community and the Motion RC customer family. Is an increase in performance and flight time worth this extra price in a 90mm jet? To achieve this price, we'd have to do some volume which means we'd have to completely dump the outrunner for all 90mm jets. I'd like to start a discussion and hear thoughts from the community. The more feedback I have, the better! Thanks everyone!

  • #2
    I guess the next question is how much bang for the bucks? Is the thrust increase noticeable and is the flight time (?) increase more than a few seconds? I know some say “manage your throttle” but to me jets are meant to be flown fast..:Cool:

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    • #3
      ABSOLUTELY! I would love more speed and flight time for such little additional cost!!

      Also, a little off topic, but i would love to see some sort of bind and fly option like e-flite has where the airplane comes with a receiver and pre-programmed gyro. That would be awesome!

      Comment


      • #4
        My opinion is that performance aircraft should have performance power systems. The prices just increased on average $10-40. The F-4 went up $40 and the F-22 went up $30. The P-38 went up $50! And the 1600 Spit went up $46.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Tom.MotionRC View Post
          If we can put a inrunner in every 90mm Freewing PNP 6S jet and get more thrust and more flight time without any weight penalty, what would you guys think? This would include all new and all existing 90mm Freewing jets. Before you answer, there's a catch. If this is possible (need to do more investigation and testing), we think it will increase the cost around $20 to $30 per 90mm 6S PNP jet. I'd like to get some feedback about this from the HS community and the Motion RC customer family. Is an increase in performance and flight time worth this extra price in a 90mm jet? To achieve this price, we'd have to do some volume which means we'd have to completely dump the outrunner for all 90mm jets. I'd like to start a discussion and hear thoughts from the community. The more feedback I have, the better! Thanks everyone!
          In a couple words.... hell to the yeah!!! They work so much better in all aspects! But especially at half throttle where you get more thrust but less amps than an outrunner will. Even if weight is a little bit higher there are more pros than cons!
          Check me out on youtube at https://www.youtube.com/user/gooniac33
          I am an RC addict and innovator that loves to share my knowledge with those that need help. Ask me anything via PM if you need help! Check out my Website here https://www.gooniac33.me/

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          • #6
            Doit:Cool:

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            • #7
              Yes please, I ended up selling most of my stock units anyway and bought all high performance FW units, so why not offer it ready to go, those who don't like the FW high performance fan units will buy the ARF kit anyway to put their own fan choice, I say go for it.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Evan D View Post
                My opinion is that performance aircraft should have performance power systems. The prices just increased on average $10-40. The F-4 went up $40 and the F-22 went up $30. The P-38 went up $50! And the 1600 Spit went up $46.
                I don't think those are the exact numbers but considering we had not had a single price increase in over 6 years (edit: until early this year), I think that is pretty good. We held prices stable as long as we could. We had many price increases from factories and we've been eating them for years. At the same time, our rent went up, our software and IT costs went up, health care went up, ocean freight went up, labor costs went up, and.....I could bore you all day. The bottom like was that we could no longer eat price increases.

                At any rate, please don't forget, many of the Freewing planes went down in price. Where we could negotiate a lower price, we did and we passed it along to you. Also, note the sale going on now. I'm asking this question because it will result in a price increase and I'd like to know if all of you feel it is worth it. The setup we're looking at is from a top of the line motor manufacturer - this is not a generic inrunner that is over-revved to the point where it will last 120 flights. That we could do with very minimal extra cost but I'd rather do it right.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Beeg View Post
                  I guess the next question is how much bang for the bucks? Is the thrust increase noticeable and is the flight time (?) increase more than a few seconds? I know some say “manage your throttle” but to me jets are meant to be flown fast..:Cool:
                  We've done some initial testing in our environment with the same batteries. We're thinking we can get about 10-15% more thrust and 20% to 40% more flight time depending on the exact configuration we use. That is mixed throttle flying. If you fly 100% throttle all the time, you'll still see the extra thrust but you will only see about 5% more flight time. Like gooniac said, the configuration we're looking at shines in a mixed throttle environment. Would you rather stick with the current configuration and keep the price the same or should we put in a new inrunner setup which will cost us about $20-$30 more?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tom.MotionRC View Post

                    We've done some initial testing in our environment with the same batteries. We're thinking we can get about 10-15% more thrust and 20% to 40% more flight time depending on the exact configuration we use. That is mixed throttle flying. If you fly 100% throttle all the time, you'll still see the extra thrust but you will only see about 5% more flight time. Like gooniac said, the configuration we're looking at shines in a mixed throttle environment. Would you rather stick with the current configuration and keep the price the same or should we put in a new inrunner setup which will cost us about $20-$30 more?
                    Those performance numbers are 100% worth a 4-5% price increase, to me at least.

                    I understand the price increases. I hope you guys charge enough money so you can be profitable enough to make a good living and continue bringing us these awesome airplanes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'd say on the 90mm jets .. It's probably a great idea, buyers in that class tend to be experienced modelers looking to move up from what there flying now . The 70mm & 80mm Jets buyers would be more price and value shoppers I'd think . Just my simple option after being in the hobby for just a few years . :-)

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                      • #12
                        Without a doubt. I buy your products because of out of box quality. All though the outrunner aren’t awful, if it can with option even to get the innrunner I would not hesitate and I would make choose that option every time.

                        gravy

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                        • #13
                          Yes, for sure! As mentioned in this post, people end up replacing the stock units for other upgrades anyway. You won't save money, but you'll save some hassle. I went with an Inrunner setup on the F86 and it's what the Doctor ordered...Performance always costs more, but it's there when you want it....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tom.MotionRC View Post

                            We've done some initial testing in our environment with the same batteries. We're thinking we can get about 10-15% more thrust and 20% to 40% more flight time depending on the exact configuration we use. That is mixed throttle flying. If you fly 100% throttle all the time, you'll still see the extra thrust but you will only see about 5% more flight time. Like gooniac said, the configuration we're looking at shines in a mixed throttle environment. Would you rather stick with the current configuration and keep the price the same or should we put in a new inrunner setup which will cost us about $20-$30 more?
                            How about a power system that isn't a turd at 5000'. That would be worth up to $50 at least

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              There is no doubt in my mind that this would be of benefit, for me at least. Here's the thing, I purchase mostly ARF+ models simply because I don't want to have to sell a power system out of a PNP jet, or at least sell the EDF/Motor. I usually put in my own power system consisting of mainly inrunner motors as the heart, and it's usually from HET because the quality for the price I find extremely good (I also love that dynamically balancing a power system with inrunner installed takes quite a bit less time than using a outrunner most often than not, but that has just been my experience. That may be another positive aspect to note when the factory is assembling and balancing the PNP power systems). If Motion RC sold PNP's with inrunner motors and a EDF design I like/agree with, the likelyhood of me purchasing a PNP jet increases. I'm also assuming (I don't know obviously) that you currently sell more PNP jets than ARF+ because it's value is good and it's easier for the customer to have everything installed. I'd say more customers don't modify as often as us on these forums, and prefer to have the whole jet ready to go in as minimal time and fuss. With the slight price increase for the inrunner motor addition out of the box, I'd find the PNP price more appealing than I currently do. The overall value of the PNP product increases for me.

                              I'm totally on board with the change. For some of your customers who may not understand the price increase or question why Motion made this decision, it will be good to market the positive aspects you already listed in your original post.

                              Please allow me to add an additional detail. I'd also like to see non-proprietary EDF's in the stock PNP's. I dislike the keyed system that currently exists when using the Freewing power systems.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                :Cool:+1 What he said:Cool: .. As an example I had the option of buying the L-39 Outrunner or Inrunner at the time of release I opted for the Inrunner even though it was a little more expensive .. The Avanti I run with the new Freewing 1857kv 80mm Inrunner .. The new F-18 will be getting a Wemo Evo/1900kv Inrunner..I hope the Inrunner idea will span not just the 90mm but the 70mm & 80mm range as well..

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                                • #17
                                  you haven't changed it yet????

                                  might be considering the same for the 80 mm range,
                                  when they outlaw R/C, only outlaws will have R/C

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                                  • #18
                                    I would yes, especially for high power twins like the F-14. Any boost in efficiency to a twin is a huge benefit in multi-engines.

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                                    • #19
                                      Increasing flight time would be more important than performance.

                                      Speed is proportional to power cubed... Double power is appx 1.2 times speed.
                                      Just how much effective thrust increase would we get?

                                      But getting more efficient power output could easily move a plane from 4 min flights to 5 min flights while maintaining the same thrust. (I compare at wide open the whole flight to LVC cutoff)

                                      You can get a higher efficiency by changing ESC settings (sometimes) or going to a better ESC (more often than just changing settings) unfortunately moving from the original equip ESC in a Freewing to a Castle Creations ESC is expensive, but it does give slightly higher watts and better efficiency if you have the most current firmware.
                                      Without changing the motors as tested in the Freewing F-14, giving virtually no speed increase, but longer flight times.

                                      If an inrunner giving the same useful thrust is more efficient, I'm all for it.

                                      Batteries getting lighter for the same capacity means we can slowly increase the battery capacity, staying at the same weight for more duration. This has been the trend every time I have bought new LiPos.

                                      We can't really see the difference between 120 mph and 130 mph. We can see the difference between 4 min and 5 min per flight.
                                      FF gliders and rubber power since 1966, CL 1970-1990, RC since 1975.

                                      current planes from 1/2 oz to 22 lbs

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Actually they are the exact numbers Tom. Or was when you had the price increase a few months ago. I keep records. I also know how many THOUSANDS of dollars I've spent with you EACH year from 2014 to 2018.

                                        The F-4 went from 389 to 429, the F-22 went from 479 to 509, the 1.6 Spit from 359 to 399 and the P-38 from 349 to 399.

                                        And to say you have not had a price increase in over 6 years is flat BS.

                                        Yes you have reduced some prices or put them on sale. Interesting that the gray F-16 was increased in price and then put on sale for the old price (not the only plane that this was done to). :)

                                        Bottom line is I do understand that price adjustments are necessary in business. But don't say they never happened, we all posted a lot, on many threads, when you (Motion) did this.



                                        Now back to the inrunner question. Now you are saying that the possible inrunner will not be a normal FreeWing inrunner but another, higher end, supplier? This does change the equation. Have we used these motors before> Are they a known manufacturer to us?

                                        Many of the Free Wing EDFs I buy (and I've bought most and bought multiples of most) get upgraded power system like XRP's in the 70mm and Jet Fan/ HETs in 80 and 90mm, most on 8S. So obviously I want the better system. But I really think there should be no additional cost. If you can tell us what motor you are planning on using in say a 70mm, 80 or 90 so we have an idea of the performance or quality increase then maybe I could justify it.




                                        Originally posted by Tom.MotionRC View Post

                                        I don't think those are the exact numbers but considering we have not had a single price increase in over 6 years, I think that is pretty good. We held prices stable as long as we could. We had many price increases from factories and we've been eating them for years. At the same time, our rent went up, our software and IT costs went up, health care went up, ocean freight went up, labor costs went up, and.....I could bore you all day. The bottom like was that we could no longer eat price increases.

                                        At any rate, please don't forget, many of the Freewing planes went down in price. Where we could negotiate a lower price, we did and we passed it along to you. Also, note the sale going on now. I'm asking this question because it will result in a price increase and I'd like to know if all of you feel it is worth it. The setup we're looking at is from a top of the line motor manufacturer - this is not a generic inrunner that is over-revved to the point where it will last 120 flights. That we could do with very minimal extra cost but I'd rather do it right.

                                        Comment

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