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Official Freewing 90mm F-4 Phantom II Thread

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  • Originally posted by Evan D View Post
    I’m between 195 and 200mm.
    I put checked the balance tonight and with the batteries in position of my last flight I’m in that same 195 & 200 area. It handles really well at this location and lands nicely. I’m also using the 5200mah batteries you recommended to me back in December.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tonybons View Post

      Thanks John. That's helpful. I watched an RC Informer maiden video where he stated that 190mm was too far back and was suggesting 170mm and I haven't seen anything else where he changed that view. Since that video, everyone that has commented on this thread and others has stated the opposite. I have set my CG at the 190mm and as you say once I start adjusting to get the right feel, I never go back to check. I also made the elevator mod last night using he suggested Hitec 5245 with 4-40 turnbuckles and 4-40 hardware that I use on my turbines. Is your F4 the 8S version. If so, are you getting the 8 beeps when you power up. Just curious.
      Hi Tony, sounds like you’re ready to go. I’m not sure why RC Informer has such a different opinion on the CG. Maybe just personal preference, and I have no idea what set up he was using. Ironically, he grew up in the same area of Maryland I did, and flew at the same field I started at almost 45 years ago.

      I don’t have a Stock Freewing esc in mine, so I can’t help you with the start up beeps.

      I can’t wait to hear your first flight report!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tonybons View Post
        Thanks Hugh. I have 1 more pre maiden question for the group - are you flying with aileron, elevator and flap throws included in the manual. I initially set up my throws to what I felt were the right deflections and they are lower than what the manual shows. Just curious what you all are using Thanks.


        tony
        Tonybons Yes I am pretty much using the mm deflections from the manual but use 3 rates. The low and mid rates for me are virtually the same as the manual suggests for low and high. My 3rd rate, the high rate is actually just a bit more than the manual high rates. I know the book deflections "look" a little extreme, but it seems to work nicely. I do tend to use a lot more expo than most people, 40% for me, which I believe most people are around 15%-20%. So in effect, even if I am in high rates, with that much expo the first 40-50% of stick movement is like being in low to mid rates, but if I need more deflection, it's just moving the sticks a little further to get into high rates. For me, this works great on landing where the elevator isn't overly sensitive at the beginning, but when I need to get it into high alpha for touchdown, I've got the elevator authority to do it. I got so used to using a lot of expo (70% or more) on my Extreme Flight 3D planes (with rates in the 60 degree or better range) that I have now gotten used to flying that way. Others who fly my planes/jets are caught off guard at first when they feel the plane isn't responsive enough with slight stick movement but then get's very responsive with further stick travel, but to each his own.

        One last thing, I do seem to remember that the neutral elevator position was still not far enough up. As far as elevator compensation, I ended up at -12% (up) for take-off and -19% landing. Additionally (and here I'm going to sound like a broken record cause I'm always "pushing" this), if you haven't done so yet, I suggest you set up the 3 Flight Modes tied to your flap switch and put the Trim Setup to FM for elevator and aileron so you can individually trim those surfaces with each flap position while in flight on the maiden. The F-4 seems a little more attitude sensitive with flaps than some jets and it really helps to get it locked in at each flap setting on the first flight, not matter what elevator compensation you started with in the Flap System settings.

        Looking forward to hearing (pictures or preferably a video please) about your very successful maiden!
        Hugh "Wildman" Wiedman
        Hangar: FL/FW: Mig 29 "Cobra", A-10 Arctic, F18 Canadian & Tiger Meet, F16 Wild Weasel, F4 Phantom & Blue Angel, 1600 Corsair & Spitfire, Olive B-24, Stinger 90, Red Avanti. Extreme Flight-FW-190 Red Tulip, Slick 60, 60" Extra 300 V2, 62" MXS Heavy Metal, MXS Green, & Demonstrator. FMS-1700mm P-51, Red Bull Corsair. E-Flite-70mm twin SU-30, Beast Bi-Plane 60", P2 Bi-Plane, P-51.

        Comment


        • Thanks everyone for the input. I fly futaba and do use separate conditions (FM) for fly, take off and land allowing for separate trim setting in each condition. I’ll post maiden results after I fly which I am looking forward to.

          Tony

          Comment


          • Tonybons good stuff, FM's with separate trim capability is the only way to go with birds having flaps!!!
            Hugh "Wildman" Wiedman
            Hangar: FL/FW: Mig 29 "Cobra", A-10 Arctic, F18 Canadian & Tiger Meet, F16 Wild Weasel, F4 Phantom & Blue Angel, 1600 Corsair & Spitfire, Olive B-24, Stinger 90, Red Avanti. Extreme Flight-FW-190 Red Tulip, Slick 60, 60" Extra 300 V2, 62" MXS Heavy Metal, MXS Green, & Demonstrator. FMS-1700mm P-51, Red Bull Corsair. E-Flite-70mm twin SU-30, Beast Bi-Plane 60", P2 Bi-Plane, P-51.

            Comment


            • Click image for larger version

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              Hi. I’m hoping to maiden my phantom tomorrow weather permitting without graphics. I’ve followed the input picked up here and my CG is just around 195mm and I’m using surface throws per the manual. I was a little surprised with the battery location to achieve the 195 CG. Does this look right to you. Thank you for your input.

              Tony

              Comment


              • Tonybons that looks about right. I have the stock 6S outrunner fan and stock ESC and fly at 195-198 CG with a RT 6250 mah that weighs about 798 g and the added twin afterburners giving it a little more tail weight along with 4 coats of spar urethane. You have the 8S setup so I image you have a little more weight in the tail (or maybe not since I have the AB's) and are using 2 4S batteries which probably weigh more than my 6S. I have my battery about 10mm further forward of were yours is, so with the differences, that should be OK. I balanced mine upside down with the gear extended using the Great Planes CG balance machine, so I'm pretty sure I'm at the CG I stated.

                I've learned not to guess where the battery get's placed compared to others because it seems each one is a little different depending on what you have modified. Of course the only way you'll know for sure is to fly it, which I'm sure you will have no trouble with. Carry On.
                Hugh "Wildman" Wiedman
                Hangar: FL/FW: Mig 29 "Cobra", A-10 Arctic, F18 Canadian & Tiger Meet, F16 Wild Weasel, F4 Phantom & Blue Angel, 1600 Corsair & Spitfire, Olive B-24, Stinger 90, Red Avanti. Extreme Flight-FW-190 Red Tulip, Slick 60, 60" Extra 300 V2, 62" MXS Heavy Metal, MXS Green, & Demonstrator. FMS-1700mm P-51, Red Bull Corsair. E-Flite-70mm twin SU-30, Beast Bi-Plane 60", P2 Bi-Plane, P-51.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hugh Wiedman View Post
                  Tonybons that looks about right. I have the stock 6S outrunner fan and stock ESC and fly at 195-198 CG with a RT 6250 mah that weighs about 798 g and the added twin afterburners giving it a little more tail weight along with 4 coats of spar urethane. You have the 8S setup so I image you have a little more weight in the tail (or maybe not since I have the AB's) and are using 2 4S batteries which probably weigh more than my 6S. I have my battery about 10mm further forward of were yours is, so with the differences, that should be OK. I balanced mine upside down with the gear extended using the Great Planes CG balance machine, so I'm pretty sure I'm at the CG I stated.

                  I've learned not to guess where the battery get's placed compared to others because it seems each one is a little different depending on what you have modified. Of course the only way you'll know for sure is to fly it, which I'm sure you will have no trouble with. Carry On.
                  Thank you Hugh. I know my CG is right around 195mm but was surprised where the batteries ended up. Your info very helpful. Your profile says you are in Miami. I am in Windermere near Orlando but I’m in my Miami from time to time and I’m a member of AMPS. where do you fly.

                  Tony

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tonybons View Post
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                    Hi. I’m hoping to maiden my phantom tomorrow weather permitting without graphics. I’ve followed the input picked up here and my CG is just around 195mm and I’m using surface throws per the manual. I was a little surprised with the battery location to achieve the 195 CG. Does this look right to you. Thank you for your input.

                    Tony
                    Good luck Tony!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tonybons View Post

                      Thank you Hugh. I know my CG is right around 195mm but was surprised where the batteries ended up. Your info very helpful. Your profile says you are in Miami. I am in Windermere near Orlando but I’m in my Miami from time to time and I’m a member of AMPS. where do you fly.

                      Tony
                      Small world Tony. My sister used to live in Windermere and just recently moved back to Miami. I am also a member at AMPS, my preferred field for grass ops (and hassle free flying). Pretty much fly there exclusively now. I am also a member of Markham Park Pilots Association and I like their asphalt runway, but there are some out of control pilots there and usually a lot more people. I only fly there now for special events. Generally fly at AMPS weekdays only when I usually have the field to myself (except for Marvin cutting the grass) or at the most a couple others early in the morning. We have more than 450 members at AMPS, but usually during the week there are only a handful out there. Even on weekends, Saturdays are the busiest, but there usually are less than 10-15 guys. We do have a lot of out-of-town and foreign members. You probably know that the majority of our members fly large turbine or large scale gas and very few fly electric. I'm one of only a handful that do, so most of the other guys get a kick out of my prop warbirds all with the sound system in them or my EDF's that all have afterburners. If you look back in this thread about 10-15 posts, that picture is at AMPS. Let me know when you're in the area and we can get a chance to fly together.
                      Hugh "Wildman" Wiedman
                      Hangar: FL/FW: Mig 29 "Cobra", A-10 Arctic, F18 Canadian & Tiger Meet, F16 Wild Weasel, F4 Phantom & Blue Angel, 1600 Corsair & Spitfire, Olive B-24, Stinger 90, Red Avanti. Extreme Flight-FW-190 Red Tulip, Slick 60, 60" Extra 300 V2, 62" MXS Heavy Metal, MXS Green, & Demonstrator. FMS-1700mm P-51, Red Bull Corsair. E-Flite-70mm twin SU-30, Beast Bi-Plane 60", P2 Bi-Plane, P-51.

                      Comment


                      • I know many of the members there as i flew IMAC with JC, Ramon DeZubria, Alfaro, etc. Miguel Alvarez built a couple of jets for me. I fly my 1/3 scale red BAE hawk there that Miguel and Marvin built. You may have seen me fly it. I thought I recognized the pavers where you had your jets on display. I’m a non local AMPS member and I’ll let you know next time I go to Miami. I’ve also been to a Markham. Talk soon.

                        tony

                        Comment


                        • Just wanted to thank everyone that provided info to me re my F4 - those posting their experience in earlier posts as well as those that replied to my questions - thank you. Very helpful.

                          I maidened my Phantom today. I am in Central FL and the weather Gods provided a rain free few hours during the middle of the day. I am not new to the hobby as I fly large scale aerobatic planes as well as turbines, however, the Phantom was my first electric jet so I was very diligent in following suggested mods and throws and the CG which I settled in on a CG of 195mm which I left there for the 3 flights I had today. The CG felt very comfortable and performed well doing a 45 upline, going inverted and let the plane do its think hands off and it showed a nice gradual down arc at the top. My elevators were as even as I could get them as were my ailerons and flaps. I have 3 rates for each control surface - I used the recommended manual rates in my mid and high switch positions for aileron and elevator and I used my own slightly lower rate in the low rate position. The rates in round numbers in inches for both the aileron and elevator were (3/4" my rate) and 1" and 1 1/4" per the manual. I added the 8mm up elevator adjustment before I flew and I set my flap elevator mix of 3.5mm take off flap and 5mm landing flap. I did not use takeoff flaps on any of my 3 flights but I did land with the landing flaps. All 3 flights went extremely well. I loved the way the plane flew but I did find the elevator a little sensitive in some situations. I will resolve that with throw adjustments and possibly a little more elevator expo as I flew with very little. I did land 1 flight with my lower rate which worked out fine but the Phantom didn't like that low rate on takeoff. That could change when I use the takeoff flaps next time out.

                          I did not experience any roll tendencies as some pilots mentioned in earlier posts. I did have to add 7clicks of up elevator trim for straight and level flying and only added a 1 click of right aileron. I don't recall what changes I made to my elevator/flap mix. I didn't use take off flaps so I didn't change my elevator/mix of 3.5mm and Ill check my radio tomorrow to see what changes I made to the recommended 5mm mix. I used expo of 35%, 45% and 55% for my 3 aileron rates. I liked the feel on the lower 2 and I didn't fly at all on the high rate. I use a 5% expo on my elevator at my 2 lower rates and didn't fly the high rate elevator. The 3 minute flight times went by very quickly and felt like 3 seconds. I decided pre takeoff to obviously first trim for straight and level flight which I did fairly quickly and then went right to trimming for landing with wheels down and flaps down, I am more then happy with how all the flights went and look forward to getting this beauty fully dialed in and dressed up with my custom Callie graphics when received.

                          I think there will be a few more Phantoms at my field in the near future.

                          Tony

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                          • Way to go Tony!

                            Comment


                            • Tonybons Outstanding Tony, considering your advanced experience, I was sure this would be a *****cat for you. Welcome to the world of electric EDF's. One last suggestion, just a thought really. The 3 minute flight time does take time to get used to and you hit the nail on the head when you said it seems like 3 seconds. I continue to be surprised by my transmitter timer shouting 1 minute remaining, cause I always scream back at it with "what the hell do you mean, I just got it up'? I'm now flying with the Roaring Top 6250 mah 35 C battery and now I'm getting 4 1/2 to 5 minutes (still seems like 4 seconds), but at least it seems like I have enough time to do a few nice maneuvers and climbs to get at least some satisfaction. I use the same in my F-18 and get well over 5 minutes flight time. The 35C battery doesn't have quite the thrust on take-off as the RT 70C I use in the F-16 and SU-30, but it's plenty enough for take-off, verticals and a few high speed passes.

                              But sorry, I forgot, didn't you end up converting yours to an 8S setup? If so, forget everything I said.
                              Hugh "Wildman" Wiedman
                              Hangar: FL/FW: Mig 29 "Cobra", A-10 Arctic, F18 Canadian & Tiger Meet, F16 Wild Weasel, F4 Phantom & Blue Angel, 1600 Corsair & Spitfire, Olive B-24, Stinger 90, Red Avanti. Extreme Flight-FW-190 Red Tulip, Slick 60, 60" Extra 300 V2, 62" MXS Heavy Metal, MXS Green, & Demonstrator. FMS-1700mm P-51, Red Bull Corsair. E-Flite-70mm twin SU-30, Beast Bi-Plane 60", P2 Bi-Plane, P-51.

                              Comment


                              • The *****cat in my last post was not me swearing. I guess there are some words that just get blanked out no matter what context they are used in. Took me a second to figure out why, but I suppose you can guess the word which starts with a p and ends with an y and a couple ss in the middle. Didn't mean to offend anyone, but most of the time my mouths runs before my brain even starts to crawl.
                                Hugh "Wildman" Wiedman
                                Hangar: FL/FW: Mig 29 "Cobra", A-10 Arctic, F18 Canadian & Tiger Meet, F16 Wild Weasel, F4 Phantom & Blue Angel, 1600 Corsair & Spitfire, Olive B-24, Stinger 90, Red Avanti. Extreme Flight-FW-190 Red Tulip, Slick 60, 60" Extra 300 V2, 62" MXS Heavy Metal, MXS Green, & Demonstrator. FMS-1700mm P-51, Red Bull Corsair. E-Flite-70mm twin SU-30, Beast Bi-Plane 60", P2 Bi-Plane, P-51.

                                Comment


                                • The post was longer then I planned - sorry but wanted to share some info to all the questions I had as I was preparing to fly.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Tonybons View Post
                                    Just wanted to thank everyone that provided info to me re my F4 - thank you. Very helpful. I maidened my Phantom today.
                                    I think there will be a few more Phantoms at my field in the near future. Tony
                                    TB, Congrats and thank you for the detailed debrief. Looking forward to more pics when your graphics hit. Best, LB
                                    I solemnly swear to "over-celebrate" the smallest of victories.
                                    ~Lucky B*st*rd~

                                    You'll never be good at something unless you're willing to suck at it first.
                                    ~Anonymous~

                                    AMA#116446

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Tonybons View Post
                                      The post was longer then I planned - sorry but wanted to share some info to all the questions I had as I was preparing to fly.
                                      Where do you fly Tony? Looking for somewhere to maiden my F4.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Crucianpilot View Post

                                        Where do you fly Tony? Looking for somewhere to maiden my F4.
                                        I fly primarily at RCACF in Apopka. Also a member of Ocala and fly in Miami less frequently. Where do you live.

                                        Comment


                                        • Hello,gestern bei uns auf dem Platz ist mir beim zusammenbauen aufgefallen, das 10mm Kohlerohr ist 90mm zu kurz.Habt ihr das bei euch auch so und auch schon einmal nachgemessen?

                                          Gruß Roland

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