looking for aftermarket power systems

[ochoaoctavio89@icloud.com]

I recently sold all my 70-80mm jets and got all the 90mm nice planes they just feel a little under powered specially the F-16 i now own f4,f15,f16,f18,and f22 i want to upgrade the edf units and maybe the speed controller if i have to on my jets but iwanted to start with the f16 can n e one point me the right direction if i should do inrunner or outrunner and witch power system will wake up my f-16 thanks

[James]

Hey ochoaoctavio89@icloud.com, welcome to HobbySquawk! Freewing has been in the process of upgrading all the outrunner motors stock with stock inrunner motors . The F-18 already now has the High-Performance option that includes this inrunner: https://www.motionrc.com/products/fr...inrunner-motor

Unfortunately it is out of stock as a stand-alone at the moment, but they are on their way. That power system should benefit any of the jets you mentioned. Just click the 'notify me when back in stock' button on the page and when they arrive, you will be notified.

[Mizer67]

I went with the 1835kv 4068 12-bld. inrunner for my F-22 on 6S, but still waiting for it to arrive.

Heard good reports it helps in the F-16, but it is really heavy. I like the F-18 high-performance option conceptually, because it's both less expensive and lighter. In addition, with the 9 bld. fan, likely is slightly more efficient.

[Flanker271]

The modern Freewing EDF system is very, very good in the EDF market today, in terms of value and performance. If you really want the next step up from the Freewing system, you'll need to go German. They are not cheap, but these fans are a work of art. They are more efficient than the Freewing system with about the same performance. This means you can go with a higher Kv motor and get higher performance than the stock Freewing system, and still maintain similar flight time. The recommendations are as follows (assuming using 6S):

1. Wemotec Midi Fan Evo 90mm with HET 650-68-2000:
https://shop.wemotec.com/Midi-Fan-ev...onically-tuned

2. Jetfan 90 with HET-700-60-2085:

https://www.turbines-rc.com/en/ejets/406-ducted-fan-edf-jetfan-90-v3-ejets-het-700-68-2100-motor.html

3. The crown jewel of EDF: Schubeler DS-51-AXI with HET-700-68-2100
https://www.turbines-rc.com/en/schub...100-motor.html

All three options are very expensive, but it can "wake up" your 90mm jets. They also have fantastic turbine sounds. The sound is so good, you can hardly hear any motor whine at all. I've only upgraded two of my six 90mm EDF jets because of the cost, but the performance is unrivaled.

[Mizer67]

The modern Freewing EDF system is very, very good in the EDF market today, in terms of value and performance. If you really want the next step up from the Freewing system, you'll need to go German. They are not cheap, but these fans are a work of art. They are more efficient than the Freewing system with about the same performance. This means you can go with a higher Kv motor and get higher performance than the stock Freewing system, and still maintain similar flight time. The recommendations are as follows (assuming using 6S):

1. Wemotec Midi Fan Evo 90mm with HET 650-68-2000:
https://shop.wemotec.com/Midi-Fan-ev...onically-tuned

2. Jetfan 90 with HET-700-60-2085:

https://www.turbines-rc.com/en/ejets/406-ducted-fan-edf-jetfan-90-v3-ejets-het-700-68-2100-motor.html

3. The crown jewel of EDF: Schubeler DS-51-AXI with HET-700-68-2100
https://www.turbines-rc.com/en/schub...100-motor.html

All three options are very expensive, but it can "wake up" your 90mm jets. They also have fantastic turbine sounds. The sound is so good, you can hardly hear any motor whine at all. I've only upgraded two of my six 90mm EDF jets because of the cost, but the performance is unrivaled.

How much of the quoted thrust comes through once installed in a model for the Schubeler fan Flanker? What I see in the stats. isn't impressive if that's rated in a test stand vs. the typically inflated specs. on other fans where that's the testing methodology on a constant voltage power supply.

[Flanker271]

How much of the quoted thrust comes through once installed in a model for the Schubeler fan Flanker? What I see in the stats. isn't impressive if that's rated in a test stand vs. the typically inflated specs. on other fans where that's the testing methodology on a constant voltage power supply.

Never owned a Schubeler (too expensive for me) so not sure. Generally fans will produce 5% - 10% less thrust once installed in the airframe depending on how clean the duct is. I've been very happy with the Wemo 90mm Evo and the Jetfan 90 upgrades.

[T-CAT]

A lot of good info. has been given so far. I'll add some quick thoughts as well.

1. Aftermarket upgrades are interesting because one person may think an upgrade isn't worth it, while others think it is. So, there is some variability in the perceived results and total value. Power systems that are offered in these PNP jets have come a LONG way with their improvements in power, thrust, reliability, balance, price, etc., in recent years. The value is better than it has ever been in my opinion. However, there may be power levels, voltage levels, sound, dynamic thrust, etc. that a provided "stock" power system may not have, and this where aftermarket systems enter the arena. This comes at a cost though, and how much your willing to spend for specific sought after performance is up to you, and what you perceive as worth while.

2. One airframe won't respond the same to "upgrades" as another, and much of that is engineering/aerodynamically related. Many factors including, but not limited to, your intake and outlet diameter, impeller blade angle of the chosen power system, EDF FSA, shape of the airfoil(s), ducting type and shape, etc., all play a role how well an aicraft will perform and it helps to select a power system after taking these factors into account.

3. If you plan to use the same input voltage for the power system and at roughly the same current as the system you replaced, be mindful of of the relatively small change if performance (sometimes better and sometimes worse), but other factors may be altered as well such as efficiency, acceleration, thrust at various rpm/throttle-setting ranges, etc. Moving to higher voltage systems, you can achieve the same power output, yet at lower current, or higher power levels and the same current, but then there are potential tradeoffs such as using multiple LiPo's in series to achieve the desired voltage, a high voltage capable ESC would be required (and HV BEC if needed), etc. It depends what you want, and how you want to achieve it.

4. Static thrust and dynamic thrust need to be considered. Much of the thrust viewed in charts is static, usually measured on a thrust stand, and sometimes with a constant voltage power supply (so there is no voltage drop as you would see when using a LiPo). Once you place that EDF in an airframe and some of the factors from point 2 above come into play, the thrust can be different than seen in testing charts (usually less thrust once installed, and a bit higher current). These give great starting points though, which in turn allows a judgment or reference point can based off of. Dynamic thrust makes a difference when the jet has adequate airspeed. Some systems may not have quite as high of static thrust, but the dynamic thrust is impressive when you actually fly the aircraft and see how it responds.

In summary, expectations for various power systems must be within reason or you'll set yourself up for dissapointment. Do your research and figure out what you want and why, and you're more likely to arrive at the answer and end goal you're looking to achieve. Then, when you purchase the power system, set it up properly to take full advantage of what it has to offer (such as proper outlet diameter, ESC settings, appropriate batteries to handle the load, etc.).

[Evan D]

Awesome post!

[Mizer67]

Never owned a Schubeler (too expensive for me) so not sure. Generally fans will produce 5% - 10% less thrust once installed in the airframe depending on how clean the duct is. I've been very happy with the Wemo 90mm Evo and the Jetfan 90 upgrades.

I've seen much greater differences in static thrust once installed.

A fan claimed to produce 3500 grams of (static) thrust once installed will produce only 70% of that at best, maybe 60% at worst on a scale. Even accounting for some testing inaccuracy it's nothing close to the published numbers. Watts and Amps draw are much closer and I would say are generally reliable +/- 5-10% and are influenced by the battery.

TCAT - great post, unfortunately finding any kind of accurate data is difficult. I'm very interested in improving the performance of my models in many cases, but it's basically a shot in the dark if a purchase will provide any improvements without any factual data that can be relied upon. I don't know any fan that shows dynamic thrust for instance, or efflux velocity.

[Evan D]

Just ask people that have made the change. Your way of buying and doing testing for "factual data" could be expensive and not give you the hoped for results...

[T-CAT]

Awesome post!

Thanks!

[Flanker271]

I've seen much greater differences in static thrust once installed.

A fan claimed to produce 3500 grams of (static) thrust once installed will produce only 70% of that at best, maybe 60% at worst on a scale.

Out of curiosity which airframe and fan combination yielded such large decrease in thrust?

[Mizer67]

Out of curiosity which airframe and fan combination yielded such large decrease in thrust?

I've tested the Freewing E72311 12-bld. 1857kv 80mm fan in both the Mig-21 airframe and Mirage 2000C airframe, for example. The Chinese specs. on AliExpress list 3700 - 3800 grams of static thrust, 92-98A and 2250W. Although unspecified these are all peak numbers.

Installed in each of these aircraft, I've only gotten 2050 grams (+/- 30 grams) of static thrust; the absolute highest numbers I've seen reported (in an F-14 - with two) are in the 2450 gram range. I've run that motor on my watt meter with a fresh battery and gotten 96A and 2259W (at 25.18V) so 2/3rds of the mfg. specs. are accurate.

Obviously I never expected to see anywhere close to 3700 grams static once installed in an airframe, but I did expect to see ~2400. There's a lot of installation loss there if that's the only factor at play.That motor flies the Mirage okay but the Mig is much heavier at ~2850 grams vs. ~2200 grams ready to fly. Even if you get 2400, that's ~35% loss give or take?

I've tested a few FMS 2100kv Pro 80mms and they run ~105-110A at peak and (IIRC) 2400 watts, while producing >2800 grams of static thrust in each airframe. I believe FMS shows on video 3500 grams of thrust in a test stand with constant voltage for comparison, which is still ~20% loss from installation.

I would prefer not to have to test these, but mfg. testing and specs. are "optimistic". I'd rather be able to rely on data that's closer to what we'll see in real world conditions. Now, different OEMs may test differently, so perhaps their 3500 grams of thrust is not the same. This is what I was driving at.

[Evan D]

How do you test thrust and was that >2800g in a Mig or Mirage? Want to be apples to apples...

[Beeg]

...............................
.................................................. ....................
.................................................. ......................

In summary, expectations for various power systems must be within reason or you'll set yourself up for dissapointment. Do your research and figure out what you want and why, and you're more likely to arrive at the answer and end goal you're looking to achieve. Then, when you purchase the power system, set it up properly to take full advantage of what it has to offer (such as proper outlet diameter, ESC settings, appropriate batteries to handle the load, etc.).

You must have eaten a large helping of lasagna before composing that post. All well said!

[T-CAT]

Ha-ha, thanks. Lasagna and Wheaties in different meals.

[Mizer67]

How do you test thrust and was that >2800g in a Mig or Mirage? Want to be apples to apples...

It was not significantly/statistically different results between the Mig and Mirage and both are peak numbers, not settled.

I used both the "push" scale method by setting them nose down on a scale (after removing the nose cone), taring out the weight and then running up to full-power as well as "pull" scale method (i.e. a fish scale) attached to the nose gear, then running up to full power. There are some limitation to both methods, but the best I can do.

I'm not trying to nail down if it's 2800 or 2850 grams static thrust for instance, just if the change made had any impact on (static) thrust vs. the prior EDF option. I also plan to test top speed and maximum altitude achieved through GPS readings, fully understanding even if averaged downwind and upwind there are limitations to the testing methodology. However, still waiting on a piece of testing equipment to arrive from China.

[ochoaoctavio89@icloud.com]

Thank you all for the response I really appreciate it

[ochoaoctavio89@icloud.com]

The modern Freewing EDF system is very, very good in the EDF market today, in terms of value and performance. If you really want the next step up from the Freewing system, you'll need to go German. They are not cheap, but these fans are a work of art. They are more efficient than the Freewing system with about the same performance. This means you can go with a higher Kv motor and get higher performance than the stock Freewing system, and still maintain similar flight time. The recommendations are as follows (assuming using 6S):

1. Wemotec Midi Fan Evo 90mm with HET 650-68-2000:
https://shop.wemotec.com/Midi-Fan-ev...onically-tuned

2. Jetfan 90 with HET-700-60-2085:

https://www.turbines-rc.com/en/ejets/406-ducted-fan-edf-jetfan-90-v3-ejets-het-700-68-2100-motor.html

3. The crown jewel of EDF: Schubeler DS-51-AXI with HET-700-68-2100
https://www.turbines-rc.com/en/schub...100-motor.html

All three options are very expensive, but it can "wake up" your 90mm jets. They also have fantastic turbine sounds. The sound is so good, you can hardly hear any motor whine at all. I've only upgraded two of my six 90mm EDF jets because of the cost, but the performance is unrivaled.

the jetfan the 2nd link you posted would that be an upgrade for all the jets I have? Also would I have to upgrade the speed control from the stock 130 amp to a 150 amp?

[Alphonso]

the jetfan the 2nd link you posted would that be an upgrade for all the jets I have? Also would I have to upgrade the speed control from the stock 130 amp to a 150 amp?

Hi there, the 2nd link would be an upgrade for any stock 6S setup. If not in peak thrust , in amp draw at least, usually both. The stock 130A is sufficient. The 3rd link would be considered a relatively hot setup for that fan as 4.5 kg is near what most high end fans deliver on 10S at sub 100A. I have both fans , albeit on more cells and the Schubeler gives about 200g more thrust for a few amps less using the same motor. I've used both back to back in my F22 and the increase in flight time is very noticeable. Now I'm not suggesting you fit a Schubeler in all those planes you've bought, rather expensive. But as you obviously like upgrading, you'll always have a desire to see what the best can actually do for you. Is it worth the extra over the very good stock power we have nowadays? Only you can decide, but I've never heard someone say "that Jetfan /Schuby was a waste of money".

Also, hello everyone, I've been trying to register for years but it never worked for some reason. Tried again today using my Xbox and it worked.