Official Black Horse Heinkel He-111 1750mm ARF Discussion Thread

[3RedPapa]

Do a search on Thingiverse for ‘Snoopdog Ace Pilot,’ if you have a 3D printer.

Oh yea, that’s perfect thanks! Had a snoopy in my scratch built standoff FW-190....kids loved it. Now to find someone with a printer.

[borntoolate]

I am still working on my Heinkel He111. I was determined to not use the struts supplied with the kit as they are not even close to scale. I managed to get some decent retract struts from a friend in Huntington Beach, Ca and get those installed. Thank you so much Gary! ;)

They are installed and are now working. I will be running FMS 3648-770 kv motors, 60 amp ESCs and FMS Ki-61 props. If that power system is not good, I have some other options.

https://youtu.be/I5QcVaQc7Ac

Bob

[WAYNE888]

Think I am going to go with what they recommend...it seems like it will not be overpowered, for sure. The Admiral motors are on B.O...The retracts too. Funny they didn't make sure to have all the bits, when they brought in the planes.
Considered "Rimfires" and Castle Creations ECS....like the Invader.....but figured I'd at least try their setup. It can always be changed

[borntoolate]

I had the FMS 3648-770 kv motors and the HL 60 amp ESCs on hand. That made my decision quite a bit easier. If this set-up is not good, I have some 4238's on hand as well. I have flown planes (Dynam B-26) that were underpowered. On the Heinkel, I will err of the side of a little more power than needed. I am hoping the current set-up is sufficient.

Bob

[WAYNE888]

yeah...it says 400 to 600wt motors, and I think the recommended ones are 450 or something like that. Likely a "scale" setup....we tend to overpower models, but I was looking to be further up the power curve. hahahahaha
We shall see how it works out

[Oxotnik]

I’m running inexpensive HK Aerodrive 4240-760Kv motors, swinging MAS 11x8x3 props, and love this setup. It has power to spare.

[borntoolate]

I want to add gear doors to my Heinkel. I will need to cut the fiberglas nacelle bottoms. Has anyone done this or have advice for cutting the fiberglas?

Bob

[Alpha]

Hi Bob,
For cutting fiberglass, I prefer to cover the entire area with painter's tape (blue or green), then draw the intended cut line with a pencil. Use a single piece of tape that straddles your intended line, to minimize the overlap of tape.

Then, I will score the fiberglass first with a new razor blade. If you want a perfect cut with minimal material loss, continue to score the fiberglass until it is completely cut through.

For a faster method, use a dremel with a cutting wheel. Obviously, the width of the wheel will be removed from the fiberglass.

Tack glue a thin sheet or ply or styrene along the inner wall of the new cutout, to serve as a backstop for your door piece and prevent the door piece from folding into the cutout.

It's important to leave the painter's tape on until after all your cutting is complete. The painter's tape helps to preserve the paint and keeps the fiberglass edges from fraying.

[borntoolate]

Hi Bob,
For cutting fiberglass, I prefer to cover the entire area with painter's tape (blue or green), then draw the intended cut line with a pencil. Use a single piece of tape that straddles your intended line, to minimize the overlap of tape.

Then, I will score the fiberglass first with a new razor blade. If you want a perfect cut with minimal material loss, continue to score the fiberglass until it is completely cut through.

For a faster method, use a dremel with a cutting wheel. Obviously, the width of the wheel will be removed from the fiberglass.

Tack glue a thin sheet or ply or styrene along the inner wall of the new cutout, to serve as a backstop for your door piece and prevent the door piece from folding into the cutout.

It's important to leave the painter's tape on until after all your cutting is complete. The painter's tape helps to preserve the paint and keeps the fiberglass edges from fraying.

Thanks much, Alpha! I appreciate the info. Thanks again for this bomber!!!

Bob

[tengarang]

Hi GUys,

All caught up. First off thank you Oxtink for sharing your post, I have based a lot of my "Decision making" from your notes both in this thread and other related HE111 threads in this forum. I will also touch base on what Bob borntoolate's input as well.

For the aileron Servos I have set aside qty = 2 Turnigy TGY- 390DMN

For the elevator servo, I will use qty = 1 digital HSG 5084MG

For the retracts I will use either the park zone mosquito struts depending on availability with the Hobbyking 1875mm B-17 struts or a combinational hybrid consisting of the B-17 retracts and Durafly BF-110 struts and using a 4mm to 4mm coupler to join 4mm shaft segments to adjust and fit inside real-estate of the nacelle.

As for the brushless motor, thanks to Oxtinks notes from the 4240-740KV being just slightly too long that the webbing on the front of the nacelles between the motor and spinner, I have decided to go with a slightly shorter motor in length with the same diameter from the hobbking NTM prop-drive line, which means the X-mount footprint will be identical to one another. In this case, I have selected and set aside a couple of 4238 750KV motors which is not as Beefy as Ox's set up as they are slightly smaller and higher KV (less torque) but still does the job.

I ran a power setup using the BF-109G three bladed parkzone propellers which are 10.6x7.8x3 and got the following numbers with their respective and fully charged battery pack:


3s 5000mah 55C china hobby line G+(graphene equivalent) || (one motor to prop load)

Settled Watts (after 10 seconds static from full charge @ WOT)
310 Watts 26 amps (continuous with minimal fluctuation) voltage under load = 11.9V (under load nominal voltage 11.1V min) --> setup Pass electrical test

For a dual motor setup, we add the power together (310Watts + 310 Watts) = 620 Watts. Take into account real-world losses when combining two loads this is around 580 Watts to 600 Watt output at best.

4s 4000mah 45C China Hobbyline Standard pack || (one motor to prop load)

Settled Watts (after 10 seconds static from full charge @ WOT)
626 Watts 40 amps (continuous with minimal fluctuation) voltage under load = 15.65V (under load nominal voltage 14.8V min) --> setup Pass electrical test

For a dual motor setup, we add the power together (626 Watts + 626 Watts) = 1252 Watts. Take in to account real-world losses when combining two loads this be around 1000Watt to 1100Watt output at best.


It must first be understood the amount of watt should not be the absolute judge of how powerful setup is but it is a key metric, i always defer to the good old feel the pull method and have a biological feeling of how powerful the setup really is assuming everything is electrically feasible

If we take the golden rule and apply 150 Watt per 1 Lb for unlimited vertical performance, and assuming the aircraft is 8lbs

With the old fashion "Pull Feel" I conclude 3s will make the aircraft fly great, for the obvious 3s setup will be scale and the 4s setup will be close to unlimited vertical.

with the guestimated dual power loading on 3s (600 Watts) and applying the 150 Watt per pound rule, and considering 8lbs All Up Weight (AUW)
up to the first 4 Lbs, we will see the unlimited vertical performance, doubling the weight should give us somewhere close to scale. At 26 amps continuous with 5000mah 3s packs this bomber will fly forever at scale speed.


with the guestimated dual power loading on 3s (1000 Watts)
up to the first 6.6 Lbs, we will see the unlimited vertical performance, adding 1.4lbs at 40 amps continuous with 4000mah 4s packs this bomber will fly like a warbird with a decent setup. Im likely to go with this setup as the Heinkel wasn't necessarily a slow bomber back in its time.

The scheme i have picked out will closely but not exactly resemble the "Artwork-Heinkel-He-111P-4.KG54-(B3+BK)-Red-B-France-1940-0A" attached. Because I do not want to spend any effort on repainting I would like to keep the original decals which are pre-applied to the kit and have asked Callie to only make the sullen bones the rabbit the diving geese with bomb and swastikas. A separate set of swastikas have been ordered for BOrntoolates aircraft as well. Because the scheme I am going with will not be a reflection of the actual scheme, the swastikas will have a black print with a white background.





back to touch on some of OXtinks notes:

For the rudder, I will go with the recommended HS-85BB servos which are out of stock right now but they are available at Amazon at the moment. When i do buy the kit i will pick these up together with the motion shipment if they are back in stock.
For the Receiver, I will be using the trusted DSMX Lemon 7 channel RX with satellite. which is more or less equivalent to motions Admiral rx600 and admiral DXMX satellite. The only difference is the setup I'm going with does not have diversity and is, therefore, a little cheaper as one item sold. I will never fly DSMX without satellite as I do not trust the diversity receivers stand alone, they are fine as long as they have an onboard satellite. I, however, do not have reception issues with my Devo 10 channel receiver, but a separate external eagle tree stabilizer will be required to be incorporated. I have never given Motion RC's eagle A3-L V2 3 axis gyro a try, however, i have heard great things about it and is a lot cheaper solution as well. I mention the Devo 10 channel setup because OXtink has suggested using differential thrust for taxiing, i am also a fan of this idea and could possibly go this route as well. If going with the lemon 7 channel/admiral Rx solution I will not set up the differential thrust. I'm likely to go with the lemon 7 channel solution for simplicity.

I want to give special thanks and also acknowledge OX's notes on the cross control ailerons to rudder idea in bomber like turns. I plan to mix my rudder and ailerons triggered to a three-way switch position 0 is fully manual, position 1 standard rudder to ailerons, position 2 cross control rudder to ailerons.

Additionally, the 4s 5000mah battery of 5 mins and 3.7V to 3.8V per cell loaded by a MAS 11x7x3, gives a good ballpark of the overall setup for CG and flight time in comparison to the setup I intend on using., will fine tune my settings and cater my maiden flight

looking forward to this project

[Oxotnik]

Teng, glad that you found my notes and thoughts useful. They're certainly just one way to skin this cat, but I've been very happy with this setup. If I were starting from scratch, I think that I'd set up the power train the same exact way. The only difference is that I'd now try to go with servoless retracts, instead of my servo-actuated retracts. As far as programming mixes, I'd encourage you NOT to do that until you had a few flights under your belt (I'm actually not much of a fan of control-surface mixes anyway). Just be prepared for the tail to drag on your flights, and certainly, make sure that you're not balanced tail-heavy, or you may be in a world of hurt. In turns, I find myself giving her every bit of rudder and then using the ailerons to control the bank angle, often cross-controlling to force the wings into a shallower bank. If I crank up the power and bank-and-yank her through turns, she reminds me of how my Flightline P-38 handles (including rolls and loops/Immelmanns). Now, that I have my 111 figured out, she's one of my very favorite planes to fly, I just take a few minutes before each flight to remind myself of her flying characteristics. Since I haven't heard others talking about their 111s draggging it's tail through turns, maybe it's a characteristic that's peculiar to my 111.

I'm looking forward to your flight report.

[tengarang]

Teng, glad that you found my notes and thoughts useful. They're certainly just one way to skin this cat, but I've been very happy with this setup. If I were starting from scratch, I think that I'd set up the power train the same exact way. The only difference is that I'd now try to go with servoless retracts, instead of my servo-actuated retracts. As far as programming mixes, I'd encourage you NOT to do that until you had a few flights under your belt (I'm actually not much of a fan of control-surface mixes anyway). Just be prepared for the tail to drag on your flights, and certainly, make sure that you're not balanced tail-heavy, or you may be in a world of hurt. In turns, I find myself giving her every bit of rudder and then using the ailerons to control the bank angle, often cross-controlling to force the wings into a shallower bank. If I crank up the power and bank-and-yank her through turns, she reminds me of how my Flightline P-38 handles (including rolls and loops/Immelmanns). Now, that I have my 111 figured out, she's one of my very favorite planes to fly, I just take a few minutes before each flight to remind myself of her flying characteristics. Since I haven't heard others talking about their 111s draggging it's tail through turns, maybe it's a characteristic that's peculiar to my 111.

I'm looking forward to your flight report.

Hiya Ox! :)

Once again your feedback never fails to provide value, call it a coincidence; however, I find your posts most informative every single time to share info. I will for sure take your suggestions under advisement about giving her a feel and rest assured I will make sure she is not tail heavy as I plan to add a few things to the cockpit area. This is not only my first balsa model but also the first model that will allow me to try a few things which I have always wanted to do (more real estate). I'll share this in the next post on this thread.

I have a few planes to get rid of first, have a kid coming along soi have to be mindful of what I can have in the hangar. Recently I have been assembling baby cribs, and figuring out how car seats work, and organizing clothing sizes for my little princess soon to join my family in the next month ahead.

However, make no mistake I will be acquiring this model as I make space in the hangar.

Best

Teng

[tengarang]

Since the Black Horse Heinkel He-111 1750mm (68.9") Wingspan model will be my first balsa model, I want to make absolutely sure there is plenty of security features in the event of any possibility of battery failure to the ESC and motor load. I will be building a supercapacitor network circuit to charge and if needed in emergency cases, discharge the high capacitance capacitor network in series by utilizing a couple of external components. The key here is to pick optimized resistance values for the charging and discharging circuitry which will be toggled by a high power automotive relay rated at 100Amps with a 12V coil voltage. It's unfortunate that there aren't any relays that accept 5V coil drive, which means I'll need to put in a 5V to 12V DC to DC step-up converter to mitigate this issue. The 5V input will be driven by the hobbyking Dr. Mad thrust UBEC with 2A output load at 5V, I will be sourcing this module with a 2s 2200mah lipo for driving the ubec driver as well as powering the receiver via the ubec itself. I chose the 2200mah 2s pack because of the high torque servos I plan on using for the ailerons and the high accuracy digital elevator servo, as well as the B-17 1875mm, retract setup. and will utilize a 4800uF cap or this one will work (bind port) to decouple the output SBEC 5V to the RX in conjunction with the Dr. Mad thrust regulated 5V out as well, in case any set of BEC's fail there are sure to be more that are going to be active to ensure a brownout will not occur.

Note: there will be two relays and two Dr. Mad thrust UBEC's which will be sourced by the single 2s 2200mah pack, the relays will need to be individually switched for the supercapacitor circuit to proper charge and discharge as I do not want the battery connected during the discharge phase, and also during normal non emergency operation, I want the capacitor to be an open circuit condition after it is fully charged at 16.2V.

Note: in place of the Dr. Mad thrust UBEC module a DR. Mad thrust On-off switch may also be incorporated in place as a substitute but this also means an external BEC such as the Castle Creations BEC 10A will be used as the main BEC module in conjunction with the integrated BECs of the ESC's

The output of the 5V driver from the Dr. mad thrust module will be the input voltage of the 5V to 12V DC to DC step-up converter which will drive an automotive relay mentioned above. I will set the driving circuit to the AUX2 for the main supply relay, and AUX3 will control the supercapacitor relay. Therefore a Lemon 10 Channel RX with Satellite will be incorporated for this operation, with an external eagle tree stabilizer.

For starters, I plan on using a 0.1 Ohm 1% tolerance resistor and a series (Capacitance is the same and voltage gets added, just like a battery) network of six 2.7V 1Farad capacitors to achieve the desired RC time constant in order to quickly charge the capacitor in about ~3.3 seconds before the flight begins. After the capacitor is done the charging, the current across the R1. With a charging characteristic of Seven, RC time constants will essentially have zero voltage drop across it which will terminate its way across R2 into the active load ESC and Brushless motor loads.

Now for the discharging part of the circuit:

If should the discharge circuit ever be needed, in case if a battery happens to be bad or if the runway is too crowded or if its too windy (and therefore multiple attempts to land is needed requiring emergency energy); an act of God determines that the battery is gonna quit and there's nothing left, beyond Low voltage cut off for the ESC's to suck on, then we will simply hit the AUX2 switch to open the battery relay, and immediately close the AUX3 switch to close the capacitor relay which by now is fully charged, via the Dr. Mad thrust unit modules to and energize the relay coil by driving 12V to it via the DC to DC step-up converter. The supercapacitor initially is at 16.2V terminated by R2 (50ohms this value will be calibrated upon experimentation) with a wide tolerance resistor which was chosen to achieve an RC time constant to reach a ~3minute discharge (theoretical at 50Ohms) characteristic. But this being an active load with variable throttle should keep enough to buy enough time to bring the aircraft down safely should a battery network give up.

I will create a debug board and simulate which R1 and R2 values will really be feasible. Because the active load is going to be variable with throttle input, it might be noteworthy to increase the value of R2 to 70ohms (or more) to reach a higher RC time constant and discharge time, but I will stick with these theoretical values to start with to see what might happen until I get a debug session going.

[tengarang]

Ive updated the circuit diagram to have 30 of these super caps at 500Farads to achieve a near equivalent energy density of a 1000mah 4s pack fully charged for emergency purposes

[tengarang]

This will be the equivalent circuit to that of a 4s 1000mah fully charged lipo which has comparable energy density. For an emergency, in the event, the battery will fail or disconnects from the main flight.


FYI for a fully charged 4s 1000mah (C rating wont matter) has an energy density of 16.8 Watt hours

For the equivalent super cap network shown i have calculated 15.2 watt hours.

Plenty of juice to do what needs to be done to bring her back to the runway safely.

[tengarang]

A german plane will require a german supercapacitor

https://www.capcomp.de/fileadmin/Webdata/partner/NESSCAP/Datasheet-cell/NCE_2014_Data_2.7V3000_T.pdf

[WAYNE888]

I just use the "Y" harnesses, and wire both batteries to both ESCs. Drop a cell or whatever, you don't have a "motor out" situation on your hands.....I prefer twins, and consider this a pretty good insurance policy....and only a very few dollars to do.

[tengarang]

I just use the "Y" harnesses, and wire both batteries to both ESCs. Drop a cell or whatever, you don't have a "motor out" situation on your hands.....I prefer twins, and consider this a pretty good insurance policy....and only a very few dollars to do.

I never actually thought of that, simple and practical. I will be implementing this on all of my multi-engines....

However for the purpose of exercising my science project, from a functional point of view and also consider the scenario where the airplane has room for one battery which contradicts what I will do because I do need plenty of real estate to fit all the capacitors.

I am anyways having second thoughts about implementing this on this aircraft as i will not be getting one soon, and over time, the bill of materials required for this circuit is becoming costly (so i have found out after doing some digging) there is something else in the near horizon which has my attention which is not on the market yet.

I have a revised schematic which i was going to share in my next post... stay tuned.

[tengarang]

Since the Black Horse Heinkel He-111 1750mm (68.9") Wingspan model will be my first balsa model, I want to make absolutely sure there is plenty of security features in the event of any possibility of battery failure to the ESC and motor load. I will be building a supercapacitor network circuit to charge and if needed in emergency cases, discharge the high capacitance capacitor network by utilizing a couple of external components. The charging and discharging circuitry will be toggled by a high power automotive relay rated at 100Amps with a 12V coil voltage. It's unfortunate that there aren't any relays that accept 5V coil drive (for the 40Amp job), which means I'll need to put in a 5V to 12V DC to DC step-up converter to mitigate this issue. The 5V input will be driven by the hobbyking Dr. Mad thrust UBEC with 2A output load at 5V, I will be sourcing this module with a 2s 2200mah lipo for driving the ubec driver as well as powering the receiver via the ubec itself. I chose the 2200mah 2s pack because of the high torque servos I plan on using for the ailerons and the high accuracy digital elevator servo, as well as the B-17 1875mm, retract setup. and will utilize a 4800uF cap or this one will work (bind port) to decouple the output SBEC 5V to the RX in conjunction with the Dr. Mad thrust regulated 5V out as well, in case any set of BEC's fail there are sure to be more that are going to be active to ensure a brownout will not occur.

Note: there will be two relays and two Dr. Mad thrust UBEC's which will be sourced by the single 2s 2200mah pack, the relays will need to be individually switched for the supercapacitor circuit to proper charge and discharge as I do not want the battery connected during the discharge phase, and also during normal non emergency operation, I want the capacitor to be an open circuit condition after it is fully charged at 16.2V.

Note: in place of the Dr. Mad thrust UBEC module a DR. Mad thrust On-off switch may also be incorporated in place as a substitute but this also means an external BEC such as the Castle Creations BEC 10A will be used as the main BEC module in conjunction with the integrated BECs of the ESC's

The output of the 5V driver from the Dr. mad thrust module will be the input voltage of the 5V to 12V DC to DC step-up converter which will drive an automotive relay mentioned above. I will set the driving circuit to the AUX2 for the main supply relay, and AUX3 will control the supercapacitor relay. Therefore a Lemon 10 Channel RX with Satellite will be incorporated for this operation, with an external eagle tree stabilizer.

I plan on using a 14AWG gauge wire to the 500F capacitor network. After the capacitor is done the charging, I will disconnect it from the circuit during normal operation of the bomber.

As soon as the battery fails due to the will of God the discharging circuit will be engaged and the battery will be removed from the loop.

Now for the discharging part of the circuit:

If should the discharge circuit ever be needed, in case if a battery happens to be bad or if the runway is too crowded or if its too windy (and therefore multiple attempts to land is needed requiring emergency energy); an act of God determines that the battery is gonna quit and there's nothing left, beyond Low voltage cut off for the ESC's to suck on, then we will simply hit the AUX2 switch to open the battery relay, and immediately close the AUX3 switch to close the capacitor relay which by now is fully charged, via the Dr. Mad thrust unit modules to and energize the relay coil by driving 12V to it via the DC to DC step-up converter. The supercapacitor initially is at 16.2V terminated by the esc and motor load. But this being an active load with variable throttle should keep enough to buy enough time to bring the aircraft down safely should a battery network give up.








i would be using a fully charged 6s pack as an external power supply to charge the 36 cap network in order to get a ~4.3 min charge time. In this case i wont have to tax the main 4s flight packs at all, and if needed use the cap as needed in emergency.

[borntoolate]

I have been working diligently on this He-111. I wanted to put some decent gear doors on this one as I did not use the stock struts. There was lots of trial and error, and lots of scrap balsa and plywood but I finally got a working prototype today. It still needs some tweaks on the linkages and well as some adjusting of the hinges to close the gaps - but that is for tomorrow!

Sorry, no charts or graphs! ;)

Bob

https://youtu.be/BnFWjA1Q3Rw

https://youtu.be/_Y3Tx4JLtwU