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Another Westland Lizzie build.

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  • Another Westland Lizzie build.

    I've had a 40cc twin sitting around my basement for a better part of a year. I planned on getting a 3D machine to stick it in. Instead I picked a handful of acceptable models that would happily accept the engine, and I thought I would have fun with. Gave it to my wife, and let her pick.

    The winner was the BH Westland Lysander. That actually came as a surprise since she always makes fun of things in camo.

    Here is my start (I'll add pictures later)

    Didn't take long to get the box delivered to the porch. What a big box it is! The distributor opened the box and packed in some other goodies I ordered. The box has quite a bit of empty space, but any item that could move was firmly attached to a wall or other item that could not move. Initial impression was I didn't need to worry about finding damage to any major components. A fact that was proven as I removed each piece. The ONLY damage I found was a pinhole sized poke/tear in the covering on the bottom of the left wing.

    I was fairly impressed with my initial review of the craftsmanship. It is by no means perfect, but easily acceptable to me. A few extra drops of glue in a place or two that just looked suspicious to me.
    The fiberglass and paint work on the cowling is good. Except there is a fairly large indented line that I guess is the paint line. Not sure why you have to mold a line for paint masking. At least not so deep and wide.....

    The covering is och. It has a matte PVC feel to it if that makes any sense. There are lots of little bits stuck under the covering. Not bad in the realm of bubbles and wrinkles. The overall looks of the panel lines and rivets and such is pretty comic-al-ly well done. Almost cartoonish when you are holding the parts and working on them at the table and otherwise scrutinizing the details. Once you step back and look from across the room, it starts to change to an acceptable representation. Clearly not scale, but adds a nice bit of detail.

    The big wheel pants done in plastic have me worried. Wheel pants are not know to be lightly abused items on models. These are sandwiched between the 2 nuts at the axle and then attach to the air frame with 2 screws. The landing gear is a 2 piece set that runs up the middle of the wheel pants. I'm 1/2 tempted to pour in some expanding foam to give them extra support along the full length. As is I don't have much faith they will last. with the 3 little attachment points.

    I didn't quite follow the order of assembly in the instructions. First thing I had to do was slip it all together to see how big it really was.It is big! I can use my GP Ultimate and Seagull Tiger Moth as parasite fighters.

    Once I got done playing, I got to business. I left the wing tip lights out for now. I think this is begging for real lights, so I'm thinking about that. First actual step was the hinges. It is nice they are pre-drilled, but some of them felt a bit over sized. Maybe it is so you have a little play in aligning the control surfaces? Using 30 min epoxy they went in and I don't think they are coming out, but I would have drilled smaller holes.

    Next I attached the landing gear and tail wheel to the frame. As mentioned before I'm concerned about the wheel pants. The tail wheel is pretty nice. A working articulating oleo strut. It mounts to the tail under a small hatch in the rear bottom of the fuse. Clever little get up. Once in there I started looking, and with a little bit of work, one could make the tail feathers removable. You have access to the inside of each elevator 1/2 and the bottom of the rudder. A little plywood, a blind nut, and a small bolt, all done.

    I didn't go that route.I glued it all in place. Everything was well aligned with not work required of me. Remove some extra covering from the joints, a good helping of epoxy, and judicious use of painter tape supports and let it sit.

    After the glue dried I decided to attache the engine. My hope was it would fit neatly inside the cowling. The reality is each cylinder is about 1/4" to long. The spark plug caps will need clearance holes cut. I'm fine with that, and will probably make up a fake exhaust stack to cover. I know not scale, but I'm not too worried about winning the best almost scale weekend flier award.

    Radio gear installation is always about as much fun as gluing hinges in. I don't like doing either. After opening up the wing panels and staring into the voids I figured I was going to have to do it eventually. The directions are a little vague where. They show you very well what components you need, except I realized my ball links consisted of the link, and the ball that had to be assembled. The instructions called for 2 each 2.6x80mm and 2.6x75mm pushrods that were supplied with the kit. I had 2 each of 2.6 75mm and 2.6 x 74mm pushrods. Later it gives you a overall length with the ball links attached of 114mm for the flaps and 96mm for the ailerons. I couldn't get that with the flap pushrod and have acceptable engagement of the ball link on the rod. So I cheated the flap servo assembly towards the flap a little and it came out ok.

    With the flaps when the instructions say to build the same way, they mean it. If you put the servo in one wing facing outboard, the other servo should face the same outboard. Otherwise you end up with one flap going up, one going down. I know this, but I still did this.
    The instructions for installing the ailerons say the same thing. Left and right are built the same way. After the flap fiasco I looked harder at the ailerons. You can't build them the same way as there is a pre installed slanted mounting block facing in opposite directions! I started to wonder about how that was going to work ,when it dawned on me, I want the ailerons going the opposite way..... Here is where I have to confess that I have not built any planes, even ARFS, in 10 years or so. I just started flying again last year. Finished installing the radio in my GP Ultimate that took 10 years to build, and bought my other planes ready to fly.

    Installing the linkages for the flaps and ailerons was pretty straight forward. Once I figured out the servo mounting that is. I even took the time to figure out, with my trusty old Futaba T8FG Super, how to slow the servo speed for the flaps. You have to set a virtual channel as a motor. In that setting mode you can control the speed and end point of the flap movement. Then you have to program a mix with the master as "motor" and the slave as "flap" set.. I guess you can also control travel and end points from the flap channel end point, but I didn't try.



    Attached Files

  • #2
    Glued in the rudder and elevator control horns. A big head scratcher on why they have different control arms for. the rudder and elevator compared to the ailerons.
    Hooked up the tailwheel to the rudder servo. Had to pop out the rear cockpit floor to get my hands into adjust and crimp the servo side pull pull.

    Cut the rear canopy for the wing saddle.

    The wing servo covers do not have support around all sides so they kind of sag in the middle chord wise.

    This pilot matches the cartoonish feel I get looking closely at the "scale details"

    Doesn't feel like I accomplished much tonight...


    It might feel like I'm being negative about the plane, but really it is a pretty decent plane so far. Most of the build is going well with just some little things that feel last minute or plain overlooked.

    I'm just hoping it flies well.
    Attached Files

    Comment


    • #3
      CHassan Welcome to Hobby Squawk!

      Comment


      • #4
        Welcome to the Squawk CHassan! Your being a little hard on yourself you are doing a great job. As far as the sagging servo covers see if you can glue in a small strip on thin ply to support cover where it sags.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks guys.

          Working on the pushrod tonight. The elevator pushrod are just barely long enough. The rudder is a solid 1.5" to long. I think can cut off enough to make it work though.

          ☆☆☆EDIT☆☆☆
          I'm a big idiot. Switched th pushrod and guess what! they fit!
          Attached Files

          Comment


          • #6
            So now that I have the controls all hooked up, are the control throws in the manual accurate?
            AIL 12/18 mm
            ELE 10/14 mm
            RUD 28/35

            They seem VERY small! Abyone comment on what they used?

            Comment


            • #7
              I can't speak for the Lizzie, but the manuals for the two BH models on my bench (Glmore & Do-335), had pretty low throws listed as well. Mine are set-up with throws that are simular to other planes I fly that are near the same size and weight.

              Comment


              • #8
                Try looking in the other tread,

                https://www.hobbysquawk.com/forum/rc...cussion-thread

                Might give u so hints..

                apparently u need a lot more throw on the elevator ..

                Comment


                • #9
                  So now that I have the controls all hooked up, are the control throws in the manual accurate?
                  AIL 12/18 mm
                  ELE 10/14 mm
                  RUD 28/35

                  They seem VERY small! Abyone comment on what they used?
                  I helped my father set up his Lysander and flew the maiden -- those throws weren't even close to enough -- it took extreme movements of the stick to bank, and not nearly enough elevator on landing. The flaps can be set to the mechanical limits of the linkage. I say this as a pilot how normally sets up models with less throw than suggested and fly at low rates 95% of the time.

                  Once enough throw was added, it was very easy to take off and fly but I found landing a challenge. You want to make sure your wheels are completely free and not binding in any way -- if they catch, the model will nose over. I eventually found that it lands nicely if "3-point" which also helped with nose-overs. On one grass landing, it flipped over -- not all that violently -- and I was very surprised to find the front canopy shattered -- very brittle material.

                  Only other comment is that with this very high aspect ratio wing, it's a good idea to keep in mind that in a tight turn, the inboard wing isn't going as far/fast as the outboard. I'd be very careful turning too tightly at lower speeds/throttle. Other than that, it's a beautiful "hands-off" flyer most of the time with a very distinctive presence in the air.

                  And yes, the furnished pilot is a joke. I don't even know why they bother, unless they are demonstrating they have a sense of humor!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks Mr. Smoothie. I had read you and your father's build, flight, and sadly demise of your Lysander.
                    I was impressed with your printed and painted pilots. They looked nice.

                    I figure I'll go with 2x the throws to start. With a little in reserve on dual rate.

                    Work slowed a little the last few days. Had to complete some Happy Wife Challenges to earn more basement time. 😂

                    My lights from Dave's RC Electronics came in. They are a pretty nice set of lights. 8mm LEDs with ample wire length to reach everything but the wing tips. If I were to order more I would ask that Dave install connectors on each wire run. Stock it runs unbroken from the LED to circuit board, but he does include a set of uninstalled connectors for the wings. I cut each wire and soldered in a standard servo connector between the 2 ends. I had to for the wings, it makes it easier to install the rest, and it just makes sense to have them pluggable.

                    For the landing gear light, Dave sells reflectors that are a good fit. For the lenses I used the bottom of a little plastic epoxy cup. The positional lights are pretty bright, but they are covered with tape while the canopy glue dries on the covers.


                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Looks great!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So if you build one of these, Refrain from screwing the wheel pants to the fuse (pg 13) until you install the wing struts (pg 35). The best fit between the wheel pants and the fuse is not the same fit you get when installing the wing strut bracket.

                        When installing the 2 piece landing gear I questioned if the left and right halves were the same. Once I installed the first one and added the wheel pants I could tell they were not . So I installed them the direction I felt was right.

                        Once I cut open the holes and slot for the wing struts the mounting holes in the landing gear were WAY off. So I thought I put the LG on backwards. I swapped left and right, but they still didn't line up very well.

                        Took a complete redo to get it lines up. Now I have a couple extra holes where the wheel pants were initially screwed into the fuse.

                        As far as the location on the wing for the struts. They give you measurements, but they ended up being off. At the measured location I got nothing but soft wood to screw into. Had to go farther aft and inboard. The wing end of the struts are suppose to spread to 200mm, but you really have to pull them to get it.

                        I also fell for the whole "assemble the left and right side the same way" crap again. One side has bolts on the top of the struts, the other the bolts are on the bottom. OK part of that is me working past past the point of patients! The first thing I did was cut the cowling out. Then cut out the fake radial. Then found out I couldn't fit the cowl and fake engine over the real engine. The prop hub hits the dummy engine and I will either need to cut bigger muffler holes, cut the center hub of the dummy engine out, or fin another means of attaching the dummy engine after installing the cowling.

                        I'm also debating if the engine will need baffling or not. That is an awful big space to allow air to bypass the engine.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          She is just waiting on pilots and good weather.
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Your photo shows just how nice of an "ARF" finish this model comes with. The colors are right, the markings are right, and for the most part looks like a good modeler painted it. I contrast this with what Black Horse did on the Dornier Do335. The original scheme (until recently) was a "straight" representation of the initial green/dark green splinter and accurately done. The new version (as imported by MRC) darkened the colors considerably and then did this weird effect where it looks like the paint had been overbuffed to aluminum as well as other "pre-weathered" effects. I'm sure some guys will like it, but it did nothing for me, and I repainted mine. However, other than to change the scheme entirely, you'd have to be nuts to mess with the Lysander's finish. That's a really gorgeous airplane and I hope you have great luck with it.

                            One other note -- on the first takeoff where the model flipped over, the front cockpit basically shattered -- it didn't look like it was much of an accident and I was surprised. I designed a canopy brace (sort of an inverted "U") to go at the frame between the windscreen and sliding portion, to be 3D printed, and installed that before replacing the canopy. I'm happy to share the STL file if anybody is interested.

                            I also "passed' on the goofy instrument panel, and found a very good photo of an actual Lysander panel that was out of the plane during restoration. After correcting for distortion and some photoshopping, this was printed out on a couple of layers and I thought was a big improvement. Again, that file is available.

                            Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_4831.JPG Views:	0 Size:	152.7 KB ID:	254327Click image for larger version  Name:	ETTF3677.JPG Views:	0 Size:	38.9 KB ID:	254324Click image for larger version  Name:	LHQM3772.JPG Views:	0 Size:	177.7 KB ID:	254326Click image for larger version  Name:	NJKD2898.JPG Views:	0 Size:	91.0 KB ID:	254325

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think I have an old version of the instructions.

                              Where the CG is located, per my written instructions, and the picture in the instructions, are 2 different places. One point is near the flap hinge line, the other is in front of the wing at the fuselage. I think it even says to balance upside down.

                              The instructions online are still a little vague, but coincide much closer to where I would expect the CG to be. (picture attached)
                              Attached Files

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I was able to get out for a couple flights yesterday. Was a little breezy, but not too bad.
                                The Valley View 40cc twin started up and ran beautifully from the start. I had to adjust my linkage as I could not get the idle to drop all the way down. Not sure how I messed that one up, but, oh well. I still need to do a little work, but I was able to get it close.

                                Made a couple taxi passes. I felt like everything was solid, so I lined up, dropped some flaps, and as you can see in the video, had a decent first take off. No a very scale roll, but I wanted to make sure I had plenty of throttle. Boy did I! I don't need much throttle at all to fly scale. Point it up, hit full throttle, and she will continue to climb. Again not very scale, but by over powering I can keep the motor at a lower RPM and have it sounds more scale than screaming along at full throttle. Oh, the weight of the twin was perfect and required no additional mass to balance, so there is another plus. (OK, that may just be some BS I tell myself, but it does kind of make sense.)

                                Not sure if it was the wind, or the fact my controls had 3-4x the throw rates, but the plane was kind of all over in trim. I went lots, then little, then lots of trim the other way. It just didn't want to react the same, like my servos were not centering very well.

                                I made a few trim passes and a few picture passes, and decided to land. The throttle still was not coming down as far as I would have liked, but with some planning and a stiff 45 degree cross wind, I was able to get it low, flair and bounce down. As expected the flex of the aluminum gear and the two screws holding the wheel pants on don't work well together. The plastic pants cracked where the screw were. I think I may actually go with my idea of adding a little expanding foam on the ID to keep the pants aligned on the landing gear. Then use a little silicone around the pants to fuse joint to give it a some finish and flexibility.
                                The wheels are hard, and the landing gear is stiff, so the plane does like to pogo on the runway if you don't grease it in or full flair it. Crosswinds and nerves don't help.


                                I made some throw adjustments, tweaked some expo, and sorted a few odds and ends, and made a couple more flights last night. It got easier to trim, and exploring the flight envelope was pretty satisfying. I didn't pull any hard maneuvers, but it rolls what I feel the real one would roll like, slow steady and not at all axial. With the power of the twin I can come by at a scale speed, start to pull up and add power and climb up over the top in a big beautiful loop. The down line is braked very nicely by the 21" prop. It doesn't over speed and comes out the bottom at a well mannered pace. Immelmanns, Split S, and Cuban 8s look great with the big wingspan slowly rotating through the roll. Its presentation in the air is pretty dramatic when it goes by. If you are not on in the show box, the camouflage does it job and make orientation a little difficult. Surprising given the plane's overall size. I thought I was going to paint this in the black scheme this winter, but I may end up going with the yellow and black scheme so I can see it to enjoy it.


                                I made a handful of landings, and some touch and goes. No tendency to nose over as some have reported. (Extra elevator, and double checked the wheels are free to spin probably helped.) While I never did get it to stick on the first touch, I did get some decent landings. Comparably, I don't think I have seen a video of a full scale Lysander touch down only once per landing. Looks like they try to keep all 3 wheels on or off the ground at the same time and it usually doesn't work so well.

                                All in all I'm pretty happy with the plane. There are a few design decisions I'm not keen on or sure of, but that always happens. the 40cc twin (43 oz) is really too much power, but as mentioned it did balance perfect and it ALMOST fits completely inside the cowling. (You can see the covers I made to hide the holes I cut for the spark plug caps to stick out of. They are part of the wheel pants from my 40 size GP Ultimate.) The plane flies nice and smooth and mimics the real planes lumbering flight, but when the old guys aren't looking it is capable of unscale aerobatics, i just wouldn't push it with the light build of the wing and minimal root rib size. That does kind of scare me.

                                Attached Files

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Congrats on the maiden! Well done on the flight report.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Need to re-title this to "Another Lizzie down!"
                                    Made a low speed pass, Banked right and made about 120 degrees around and it became unresponsive. No throttle, or any control surface responded. Just a brief period of time. Just enough for me to panic, I think it regained connection as the throttle increased to the half stick I had, and it snapped round and round until it hit the dirt.

                                    She was a great flier, and I enjoyed her. She left me way to early!
                                    Attached Files

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      That’s a shame. Nice looking plane. I have looked different brand versions over but they all seem to have tip stall issues.

                                      When I saw your crash report I thought you were going to talk about a tip stall not a signal failure. What a shame. As I New flier I have had that with a Lemon of a Lemon. Irritating when you did your part and the equipment leaves you in the lurch.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        was a vn bird, my question is would you be interested in making one of those instrument panels for someone else?

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