FW P-51 Old Crow

[ICM]

I'm trying to decide between the Freewing 1410mm and FMS 1450mm P-51d's. The deciding factor is grass handling. I fly on a grass club field, typically 1" - 1.25" and generally pretty smooth as its rolled periodically throughout the season. As to thickness, on a scale between lush and sparse, its around midpoint. As a reference point, my E-Flite AT-6 1450mm handles the grass ok. I've had a well respected pilot who's flown both Mustangs (as well as nearly every other Freewing/Flightline/FMS offering) recommend the FMS, even though he prefers the Freewing P-51 in most respects, as he always had nose over issues on grass with the Freewing despite the fact that the wheels are 1/2" larger. Since most posters here have experience with both planes, I'd very much appreciate your opinions on which of the Mustangs would be better suited for my grass field. Thanks for your help.

[OV10]

Have NEVER had issues with either one nosing over. Maybe your "respected" pilot does not possess the skills for turf.:Thinking:
Both are very well suited for turf operations and I don't mean just golf course fairway stuff. ;)Your club field is rather atypical of most grass operations and either one will do well.

[ICM]

Trust me OV, he has more than the necessary skills, but opinions differ. That's why I'm asking here. Thanks for yours.

[Boots Whirlygig]

The FW P-51 doesn’t require a motor upgrade, as it’s 580kv motor is a beast compared to the little FMS 540 and 580. Its also supplied with an 80 amp ESC.
I wish that they had made replacement plastic parts to replace the two speaker grill parts on the fuse, but I think I can hide that. Another thing is the opening canopy, the workings of it are not helping the scale look of the office.

[GDSpence]

... On the tailwheel binding/limited rudder issue when retracted: since I only have a DX6, I wish I could do the TX mix to eliminate TW steering when gear is retracted, but that isn’t an option, so if the retract assy R&R doesn't work (it has for at least 1 poster on another forum), then I guess I'll have to fabricate my own slighty longer 90 degree tiller bar and raise the TW steering servo up with washers. I understand the trouble others have had with making their own and to be honest, I'm not looking forward to it. With all the quality I see on this model, I can’t believe FW would keep cranking 'em out with this engineering defect.

Hello Deadbug,
I have the same issue with the tail wheel servo binding when retracted on the Old Crow I purchased about a month ago.. I have taken care of this by mixing with my DX9 transmitter. I would have preferred not to have to use an additional channel on the receiver to correct their problem. I am wondering if you ever heard back from anyone on this issue as how they fixed it. How did you take care of the problem?

[deadbug]

Hello Deadbug,
I have the same issue with the tail wheel servo binding when retracted on the Old Crow I purchased about a month ago.. I have taken care of this by mixing with my DX9 transmitter. I would have preferred not to have to use an additional channel on the receiver to correct their problem. I am wondering if you ever heard back from anyone on this issue as how they fixed it. How did you take care of the problem?

Hi GDSpence,
Well, other than a few folks who fabricated their own longer tiller rod, nothing. I tried that and was not successful—I couldn't get a threaded rod to anchor properly in the steering tiller and hold securely. I gave up, decided that since it was only an issue when the gear was up, and only with rudder applied in one direction, it was probably not worth obsessing over. I've been flying it alot since and to be honest, I forgot about it until you posted here ????.
So I’m flying it as-is without any noticeable issue. Now that I use an iX12, maybe I should work a mix, but too lazy to mess with it now...lol.
No, I never heard back from Motion with a fix; they did try to address my concern as I think I've mentioned here in the past by sending new TW assys, but I'm sure the production in the factory remains unchanged.

DB

[deadbug]

Well, I had a moment yesterday...I had been flying my EDFs (70mms Viper and F-16) for the last 4-6 weeks and saw Old Crow begging to go fly. I took her and my Viper out to the field early and enjoyed a spectacular flight o my Viper, followed by an equally enjoyable FIRST 3 or so MINUTES of Old Crow flying. Beautiful takeoff (I did remember the right rudder, lol) So "dialed in", perfectly in trim, many low passes and vertical pullups and aileron rolls into the blue early morning still air... a smooth inverted low altitude 360 overhead, finishing up right in front of me but out about 1/4 mi or so towards, but not into the sun. Time to roll right-side up and pull up for a wiffordill. EXCEPT I ROLLED PASSED LEVEL FLIGHT and didn't notice or see I was now almost, but not quite inverted again. Did I mention I was going to now begin a smart pullup? Yup, I pulled sharply back on the stick but it went DOWN right into the muddy farm field at high speed before I could process what just happened!!! Beyond repair.

:Sweating::Crying:

Okay--now to my question: I bought a NIB scratch and dent sale Old Crow from MRC last November to have as either a spare or for parts. SO, I decided to take this opportunity to add the AR9030T RX that I got with my iX12 purchase for Christmas and use it in the "new" Old Crow so that I could finally do a separate channel for the Tailwheel steering as many have done and recommended.
But now, when I am just looking at the fuse interior and the size (and more importantly the orientation/location of the servo plug locations on the RX) of the AR9030T--I'm wondering where the best location is for it to be placed. My much smaller AR6600T with side plugs instead of bottom--worked great just behind the battery tray and up as far as I could get it on the right interior wall of the fuse oriented vertically with antennas at the top. Another consideration, is that I had the Spektrum Total Energy Sensor (telemetry module for the flight pack battery) on the opposite wall situated similarly. It has to be connected with the RX.

Anybody using an AR9030T in Old Crow? If so, where did you put it? Any ideas?

Thanks,
DB

[deadbug]

UPDATE: <sounds of crickets chirping> :) Didn't hear any ideas from forum contributors, so I just plugged ahead, measured, tried temporary mounting using masking tape--considered every option (mounting receiver in forward speaker bay, under the battery tray, opposite wall--logistically ruling out all these) and finally decided to do pretty much what I was leaning toward in the first place. This post will hopefully help somebody else in my situation down the road.

I mounted the very large AR9030T where I had the AR6600T, but the much larger dimensions of the RX, plus the fact that its 9 channel port plugs are at the bottom of the RX pointing downward made the side-by-side wing mounting of the LED and Gear sequencers impossible. Instead, I stacked them on top of each other on the wing forward of the gear outer door actuators with all the plugs facing aft. There wouldn't be clearance between the bottom of the RX (with plugs) and the LED controller box. When mounting this RX which comes with 2 remote receivers, I had to order a 12" extension for one of the remotes so that I could place the aft one in the empty aft speaker bay on the left sidewall oriented vertically. The other is located under the battery tray with the antennas perpendicular to the internal RX antennas. So the RX internal antennas shoot out parallel to the longitudinal axis and just below the battery hatch forward--and along and below the cockpit canopy rail going aft. Got all the antennas optimized.

Also, I did put the rudder and the TW steering servo on separate channels with the mix described by Mr. Cub Crazy--and it works phenomenally well. Prior to cleaning up the wiring, I assembled everything and did a power-on test...all works perfectly. So she's in the garage (paint shop) getting her 3 coats of Varathane Gloss water-soluble exterior clear Polyurethane.

DB

[Grossman56]

Ever wonder where Anderson got the name for his plane?
According to his book, this is where he got it...



Note the Font is about the same?!
Remember, this is before laser printers so the guys did a good reproduction.


Grossman56

[curlyculp]

I had the FMS P-51 "Petie" and had upgraded to the 650KV motor and 85A ESC. Using 4S 5000ma, 60C battery. After several dozen flights, the motor overheated so badly the heat from the mounting screws melted the plastic mounting plate and the motor et al flew off in flight. Unfixable as I can't get the old mount out to replace it without cutting the fuse apart.

Point being, I now bought the Old Crow. My batteries are all EC5, and I was going to replace the plug on the ESC when I recalled I have the 85A ESC from Petie. Which happens to be the upgrade ESC offered by MRC for this model.

Is that ESC too hot for the 580KV stock motor? Is the 60C battery an issue?

[OV10]

I had the FMS P-51 "Petie" and had upgraded to the 650KV motor and 85A ESC. Using 4S 5000ma, 60C battery. After several dozen flights, the motor overheated so badly the heat from the mounting screws melted the plastic mounting plate and the motor et al flew off in flight. Unfixable as I can't get the old mount out to replace it without cutting the fuse apart.

Point being, I now bought the Old Crow. My batteries are all EC5, and I was going to replace the plug on the ESC when I recalled I have the 85A ESC from Petie. Which happens to be the upgrade ESC offered by MRC for this model.

Is that ESC too hot for the 580KV stock motor? Is the 60C battery an issue?

Curly............what do you mean by "too hot"
If what you are meaning to ask is the ESC an overkill or way more than needed for the stock motor then the answer is yes because all you are doing is pouring more cost into the power system that isn't required.
But since you already have the 85A, no sense in shelving it..........I'd rather use a higher rated amperage ESC than one that is underated.
The same answer goes with the 60C.................that rating is more needed for EDF's whereas most prop systems get by with 30-40C rated batteries.

[xviper]

I had the FMS P-51 "Petie" and had upgraded to the 650KV motor and 85A ESC. Using 4S 5000ma, 60C battery. After several dozen flights, the motor overheated so badly the heat from the mounting screws melted the plastic mounting plate and the motor et al flew off in flight. Unfixable as I can't get the old mount out to replace it without cutting the fuse apart.

Point being, I now bought the Old Crow. My batteries are all EC5, and I was going to replace the plug on the ESC when I recalled I have the 85A ESC from Petie. Which happens to be the upgrade ESC offered by MRC for this model.

Is that ESC too hot for the 580KV stock motor? Is the 60C battery an issue?

That's how you change the motor mounts on these things. You cut it apart at the seam till you can pull the mount out.
I doubt it's the ESC "being too hot" for the motor. If anything, it could be not enough. ESCs can be many times the amps than what is called for and the motor simply draws what it needs. In your case, it's possible that it drew more than what the ESC was rated for. Did you by chance also have the "zip tie" mod on the blades? That "could" tax the motor and draw more amps than what your ESC can handle. Same goes for the 60C of the battery. The system takes what it needs. If it's not enough, the battery can get warm, but if you've got a battery that's very high C, above and beyond what the motor, ESC needs, nothing bad will happen. You're under the impression that ESCs "push" amps into the motor and that the battery "pushes" juice into the system. I don't think you can look at it in quite that way.
Something else is going on with your setup. Look at the prop assembly. Zip tie mod? Is the whole prop balanced? Are there any bare spots in any of the wiring from the ESC to the motor? How's the ventilation for the ESC for cooling? Remember, the 650 motor was meant for a plane of a similar size of prop but having one less blade. Up that to 4-blades and throw in a zip tie (if that's what you've got), and it's going to pull a lot of amps. Add to that, running at high throttle for the bulk of the flight only adds more strain.

[curlyculp]

Petie's prop was the stock 4-blade. No mods.

I cut the fuselage at the joints and tried to pry the halves apart at the nose to the point where I could move loosen the motor mount and it wouldn't budge. It's glued in super tight.

Anyway, I'll go with the 85a ESC and give her a whirl. I'll try the two blade prop first, then try the 4 blade. I like the scale look.

Thanks all.

[xviper]

Anyway, I'll go with the 85a ESC and give her a whirl. I'll try the two blade prop first, then try the 4 blade. I like the scale look.

Thanks all.

Each setup is going to pull a different amp. My BBD P-51 is running the 6s motor from the "Jug". However, I went a bit overkill and put in a 125A ESC. Running the stock 4-blade prop, it's never been an issue. It likely would be fine with a 100A ESC, so your 85A should be OK but yes, start with a 2-blade and then see how hot the motor and ESC gets. If it's not stressed at all, then try the 4-blade, keeping in mind that if you run the motor at near max throttle for most of the flight, this would be the most strain on the system. If it comes down only warm, it's likely fine. I found when my plane was on 4s, no matter what the mod, I was flying it near max throttle the whole time just to get the performance that was acceptable to me. Motor and ESC was always warm/hot.

[curlyculp]

With the stock motor on Petie it needed full throttle most the time. With the 650 it was way better. Don't know why it melted the mount though. Never found the motor. Off in the woods somewhere. I guess I'll have to take spinner and prop off to check the motor temp after a flight.

[OV10]

Petie's prop was the stock 4-blade. No mods.

I cut the fuselage at the joints and tried to pry the halves apart at the nose to the point where I could move loosen the motor mount and it wouldn't budge. It's glued in super tight.

Anyway, I'll go with the 85a ESC and give her a whirl. I'll try the two blade prop first, then try the 4 blade. I like the scale look.

Thanks all.

Trying using the old and very seldom heard modding disassembly trick of using Zippo Lighter Fluid ( no matches required plz ) to soften the factory glue holding that motor mount in the crash victim

[OV10]

Each setup is going to pull a different amp. My BBD P-51 is running the 6s motor from the "Jug". However, I went a bit overkill and put in a 125A ESC. Running the stock 4-blade prop, it's never been an issue. It likely would be fine with a 100A ESC, so your 85A should be OK but yes, start with a 2-blade and then see how hot the motor and ESC gets. If it's not stressed at all, then try the 4-blade, keeping in mind that if you run the motor at near max throttle for most of the flight, this would be the most strain on the system. If it comes down only warm, it's likely fine. I found when my plane was on 4s, no matter what the mod, I was flying it near max throttle the whole time just to get the performance that was acceptable to me. Motor and ESC was always warm/hot.

XV.............incase you're unaware the stock FMS 1400 P-51 and the 1500 P-47 both used 14x8x4 blades. The Jugs 4258-KV460 motor had a 70A 1400W rating and it came stock with a 70A ESC.
There was never an issue with that stock setup on the Jug so even an 85A on your BBD(with the Jug power plant) is a bit of an overkill.

[OV10]

With the stock motor on Petie it needed full throttle most the time. With the 650 it was way better. Don't know why it melted the mount though. Never found the motor. Off in the woods somewhere. I guess I'll have to take spinner and prop off to check the motor temp after a flight.

The 650 motor was full bore rated for a 3 blade setup. My Marie has the 650 but will only tolerate full bore for intermediate bursts of 5-10 secs then back to happy cruising of 3/4 throttle otherwise the motor will get very heated up which for prolonged and repeated times it takes a toll on that plastic motor mount.

[xviper]

XV.............incase you're unaware the stock FMS 1400 P-51 and the 1500 P-47 both used 14x8x4 blades. The Jugs 4258-KV460 motor had a 70A 1400W rating and it came stock with a 70A ESC.
There was never an issue with that stock setup on the Jug so even an 85A on your BBD(with the Jug power plant) is a bit of an overkill.

I had forgotten till you just mentioned it. I started with the zip tie mod, then went to the higher kv motor, then to yet a higher kv motor. Along the way, I kept burning up motors and kept increasing ESC sizes. By the time I finally went to the Jug motor and 6s, the 125A ESC was already in there, so I just left it there. None of the mods till the Jug motor gave me the performance that I was satisfied with. It's held up for some years now the way it is.

[AirHead]

With the stock motor on Petie it needed full throttle most the time. With the 650 it was way better. Don't know why it melted the mount though. Never found the motor. Off in the woods somewhere. I guess I'll have to take spinner and prop off to check the motor temp after a flight.

That's bizarre that you have a melted motor mount. For some, it's tricky to get the right setup. Factory planes never seem powerful or fast enough, so we tinker and put Cobra 427's in the engine bay. You do lots of experiments to get the 4 components to streamline until they work together. I put a Castle Talon 90 and a Tacon Bigfoot 32-770kv in my FMS Zero with a 13x8, 3 blade and that combo pulls the plane around and makes it do what you want! The battery was always warm. Although I use 60C and 70C batts. You might use a Dremel to extract the motor mount. If it's impossible, then say goodbye to Petie; because it's discontinued anyway and buy the Freewing Old Crow....