Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

[dbbyleo]

Hey folks... I'm a first year flyer. I've had the Apprentice S since March 2014. I've logged about 7 hours in the air. I've "graduated" to flying without SAFE assistance, including landing and take off. I've got my orientation down pretty well... I always spent a few minutes doing figure-8's every time I'm one the field. I've have had no crashes to date... some close calls, but zero crashes requiring any repairs.

There's a part of me that's a getting a bit bored. Some of the things I'm working on now is flying inverted. I got the idea recently to make that as next goal and objective - do figure-8's inverted.

I'm not sure if it's just me, but I feel that the stability built into the Apprentice makes it even more difficult to fly inverted. May be that isn't true. But I also wonder if y'all would say... "it doesn't matter - you need to be able to fly it regardless of its flight characteristics."

But I'm really wondering when do you know when you've graduated from the trainer?

Is it when I can do some of the basic acrobatic patterns, like loops, Cuban-8, rolls, 4-point rolls, etc? Do I have to perfect those moves? Can I perfect those moves in a trainer?

Or is it simply when you "feel confident?" Does confident mean I don't have the jitters anymore? Because honestly... I still get a little nervous when I'm up in the air. I have to remind myself to breathe. If I'm going to do a low altitude fly-by, I usual just keep her level... no fancy stuff like presentation, etc.

So is it when you can do all these things and be able to provide the correct input 100% every time. To be honest, as much as I feel I have orientation down pretty well, there's still about 10% of the time I will initially move the stick in the wrong direction.

Lastly, the FMS F4U Corsair 1700mm has peaked my interest. Something like this is really what I'd like to get into after the trainer. Is this too big of a jump? Should I consider something more in the 1400mm range like the T-28? I'd definitely like something in the 6-channel realm. Retracts would simply be cool, but I'd also like to experienced using flaps. In any case, its still about 7 months ahead of me. And by then I suspect I would have doubled or tripled my flight time in the trainer.

Anyway, hoping to get your perspective as a look ahead. Thought and feedbacks are appreciated.

[Loneflier]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Congratulations on the success so far dbbyleo. The Apprentice is a great plane. I also have one, and enjoy flying it for just some relaxing, flying fun. I certainly understand the desire to go to a warbird, and if you can handle the Apprentice with no problems, you probably can go to one for your next plane. Now, a 1700mm Corsair, I would probably advise you to hold off on that for at least one more step, but then again, I haven't flown any of the 1700mm size planes. If you want to fly a Corsair, I would suggest maybe the new Corsair S with the AS3X. That is a fantastic flying plane, and very stable, but reacts much quicker to inputs than your Apprentice, and is not "self righting". It has settings for beginner, intermediate, and experienced so that you can try them out and advance that way. It does not have retracts though. Another alternative that many graduate to for their second plane is the T-28. Again, the Horizon version is an excellent flying plane. The FMS 1400mm version is also a favorite of many on this forum, but does have a very different feel from your Apprentice. If you have lots of simulator time practicing these other planes, you could probably move up to this one. There are many great flying planes out there for a second plane, and I am sure you will get a lot of suggestions for others on this forum. Good luck with your choice!!

[OV10]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Hello dbbyleo,
Welcome to the forum. First let me say that seeking advice on the forum is not a bad thing but remember it is your decision on what/how/when/where you do with the sought after advice. I am one of three instructors at the club I am with as well as newly elected VP. Based upon everything you have commented on regarding hurdles to overcome about progressing on to the next aircraft, I would have to say that you hit the number one impediment and have reined it in - Confidence. Personally I would like to see you get the opinion or advice of someone local to you regarding your real skill level in order to make a realistic next step.
War birds do fly different than trainers but they are not something to be afraid of, you just have to work your way up in airframe characteristics. So with that being said, your question concerning a 1700 F4U Corsair - I think you would be setting yourself up for a HUGE disappointment using this as your next bird. It is just too much too soon. With regard to the 1400 T-28, now that is a much better approach to jumping up in size and into a war bird. There are so many things right about that airframe for training, that's why it was a trainer!! I still love punching holes in the clouds with mine.
Lastly, I always like to advise my students to invest in a simulator. You just can't beat knocking the rust off your skills during the winter months of crappy weather or venturing into a new pattern you'd like to do without jeopardizing an airframe.
Good luck on your decisions and continued success that you've experienced so far with no crashes.

[dbbyleo]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Thanks guys for that perspective. I will look for opportunities for conversation with the "pro's" in my local airfield and get some opinions there too. I do have a simulator (Phoenix RC) which I did spent some time on before taking the Apprentice on its maiden. Thanks for the reminder to take advantage of that.

The T-28 (or simliar) does seem like the logical next bird, but man the 1700mm Corsair is just so dang impression looking - and MRC's demo of it makes it look "easy". I suspect one thing I will also loose in this next jump is the AS3X - which I believe in car terms is like VSC - Vehicle Stability Control. There's no way of turning that off and I'm probably taking for granted what that is affording in the trainer now. I'd probably be very surprise the increase in difficulty when I do have it anymore. Thanks for bringing up the AS3X factor - I had forgotten that is included in SAFE regardless of flight mode.

[Hippie 64]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Gotta say I was even more eager than you . My first plane was a Flyzone Mini Switch . Start in high wing then switch it to low when I felt ready . The problem I had was the size . It's a small plane and very twitchy . 
I barely had it out of the box and had a Freewing Texan 55" plane ordered . Lucky for me the Switch gave me such a hard time that I never tried to fly it . I chose to go up to a larger trainer and ordered a Pandora . It has four different setups and all make a difference . Size helped me with stable flying and built confidence in myself . 
The Corsair is a beautiful plane but it's a tail dragger . When taking off this setup has Torque roll or pull . It comes from the prop . Tricycle set like the T-28 doesn't have that . These are big jumps when your advancing your skill levels . Size helps some with more stable flights when there is a little wind . 
Just keep these things in mind when your ready to step up . 
Btw the Texan sit ready to go for six months before I took it outside . It's pictured here in my avatar . 
Welcome and best of luck to you ! We all want to hear success when flying and anyone here will help all they can . 




Bryan 

[dbbyleo]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Hey Bryan...

"When taking off this setup has Torque roll or pull . It comes from the prop..."

What do you mean by this? I'm thinking you are referring to what my full scale pilot friend mentioned to me a while back - it's the prop's torque effect on the frame. The Apprentice's prop is slightly angled to the right and I think it's there to compensate for this effect if I'm not mistaken. I guess this is another "stability" factor to a trainer. I've taken off in cross winds, so I'm somewhat accustom now to giving rudder input at take off. But if I'm following what you're saying, this next plane, P-factor may be a real factor that I may have to learn to give aileron input as well during take off.

I'm shifting gears and doing some more recon on the T-28, but about Corsair... what exactly do you mean by "tail dragger?" I'm not yet up to speed on all the piloting lingo, so please explain.

Anyway... thanks for the input.

[FLY BOY]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Greetings fellow flier, Now that u feel ready to move up, The first question I asked myself when I was at this point is, What kind of flying am I mainly going to do? If you wanna just sport fly mostly, then a war bird like the T-28 or the A6 Tex would be great second planes. Some what aerobatic and a little bit zippy to. There much more responsive to inputs and will keep u on your toes for a while. 1200 - 1400 mm planes would be wise at this point. War birds require you to fly them all the way down on landings to. High wing trainers float down like an umbrella, very easy to land. Low wing birds u gotta stay on the sticks all the way down. Your torque roll comes from the motor turning the prop right and rolling the plane left. To much throttle all at ounce on take offs, and the plane turns and rolls left all by itself from the torque of the motor turning the prop. A little right rudder will cure this when it happens, Not alierons. So ease into the throttle on take offs, this will help to. Your tail draggers are planes with rear landing wheels. Like the Corsair, A6 Tex, P51 Mustangs. all have steerable tail wheels. Much harder to take off and land VS a T-28. If u decide on a tail dragger for your next plane, may I make a recommendation? The Dynam SU-26M would be an excellent choice. Its sleek, Zippy in the sky, Light weight, easy to take off and land. It will do tricks in the sky that war birds only dream about. And there cheap, easy to repair and easy to up grade. Then ounce you have mastered the ART OF LANDING a tail dragger, then maybe move into a war bird. Food for thought anyway.  Best of luck to ya, and dont worry about crashing, it happens when u least expect it. And it will happen. PS buddy boxing with some body at the field whos been there done that would be huge in advancing no matter what your flying. I also recommend using a HOBBY EAGLE AL-3 Gyro. Really increases stability in air, and will help with take offs and landings. Makes learning a lot less stressful, and when your ready, just simply turn it off. Myself, I prefer to have mine on all the time. Its just easier that way. Airplanes cost money, and if a Gyro will save me money, and it has, I'm all in! Have a great day! :D

[Hippie 64]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

dbbyleo I don't use  any ailerons on take off unless I half to . Rudder control on a tail dragger or rear wheel plane is what's required during your take off . The two different wheel setups control different on llanding,taxi , and takeoff . 
The angled motor is for aid while flying to help compensate that effect from the motor torque . I'm not sure if I know of a Prop plane that doesn't have that angle . But the transition between taking off and landing is controlled by you more . I've never used a gyro or the safe system so I can't say what plus they have . I prefer not flying with them . 
Let us know what you decide on .




Bryan 

[doctormike]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Hey Bryan...

"When taking off this setup has Torque roll or pull . It comes from the prop..."

What do you mean by this?  I'm thinking you are referring to what my full scale pilot friend mentioned to me a while back - it's the prop's torque effect on the frame.  The Apprentice's prop is slightly angled to the right and I think it's there to compensate for this effect if I'm not mistaken.  I guess this is another "stability" factor to a trainer.  I've taken off in cross winds, so I'm somewhat accustom now to giving rudder input at take off.  But if I'm following what you're saying, this next plane, P-factor may be a real factor that I may have to learn to give aileron input as well during take off.

I'm shifting gears and doing some more recon on the T-28, but about Corsair... what exactly do you mean by "tail dragger?"  I'm not yet up to speed on all the piloting lingo, so please explain.

Anyway... thanks for the input.

[hr]

Hey Bryan...

"When taking off this setup has Torque roll or pull . It comes from the prop..."

What do you mean by this?  I'm thinking you are referring to what my full scale pilot friend mentioned to me a while back - it's the prop's torque effect on the frame.  The Apprentice's prop is slightly angled to the right and I think it's there to compensate for this effect if I'm not mistaken.  I guess this is another "stability" factor to a trainer.  I've taken off in cross winds, so I'm somewhat accustom now to giving rudder input at take off.  But if I'm following what you're saying, this next plane, P-factor may be a real factor that I may have to learn to give aileron input as well during take off.

I'm shifting gears and doing some more recon on the T-28, but about Corsair... what exactly do you mean by "tail dragger?"  I'm not yet up to speed on all the piloting lingo, so please explain.

Anyway... thanks for the input.

[hr]
Hi, dbbyleo. I soloed in a taildrager( J3-cub) A taildragger has a tail wheel whereas a trigear has a nose wheel. It's good to hear you want to learn (at least) the basics. So many RC'rs don't know a vertical stab from an aileron! As far as prop torque goes, it's many facited. Prop torque is to be considered on takeoff and aerobatics, It makes the plane tend to turn left on takeoff. It can be used to you're advantage in aerobatics by always rotating to the left. However, the prop wash vortex is also to be considered. The vortex (turning clockwise) hits the left side of the rudder, making the plane turn left on take off. Once flying speed is attained, this effect is minimal. Keep learning. We all want to help you. We need more newbees, there are so few of them. Don't be afraid of asking questions! Have fun!!! The Doctor

[Grossman56]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

I think we all know the pull of the WWII aircraft.  They're almost hypnotic!  But just think what she'll look like if she lawn darts into the ground because you weren't familiar with all the variables.  Remember, they're a lot faster as well.  You don't want your first major crash to be in your new Expensive Corsair.

Grossman56

[Tootall505]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Hi dbbyleo and welcome to the forum and to flying. I totally understand the allure of warbirds. I love them also and have 3 FMS 1450's , 2 P-51's and a T-28 in my collection. As everyone has stated a warbird is a big jump from a trainer. A 1700mm corsair is a huge jump that you may not be ready for yet but it will come. A big bird like that requires a large vehicle to haul it in unless you plan to break it down every time you go flying. A 1700mm warbird requires a 6 cell battery and they are not cheep and spare parts are a must to keep you in the air. Trainer planes serve a purpose, I understand they can be boring at times especially when you see people ripping up the sky with a warbird.
Warbirds fly just like their full size counterparts and they will keep you on your toe's the entire flight. I've only been flying planes for 3 years and was able to step up rather quickly but only because of my 8-10 years of flying Helicopters before planes.

IF you want to go to a low wing warbird, I advise trying a Parkzone T-28. I flew one during my transition and simply loved it. It's inexpensive, it's a warbird and it was designed by the military for training pilots. It has tri gear which makes take off's and landing easier and its inexpensive to repair if needed. It will do all the aerobatics you need to learn and it pretty zippy in the air as well.

Invest in the best radio you can afford it will be worth it when you get into the larger planes. Keep the Big warbird on your wish list for now, fly as much as you can and work up to it. Putting a $500 plane into the ground can be very discouraging BELIEVE ME, I'VE BEEN THERE. We've all been there!!!

Happy flying and safe landings!!!
 

[dbbyleo]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Thanks guys. Yeah, I think I've definitely come down from the allure of the 1700mm Corsair. You gotta admit - that flight review by MRC is enticing!

I was encouraged by today's airtime at the field flying the trainer. I came down from my usual 3-mistake high altitude and just started working on figure-8s at lower level. It definitely made me pucker up. Its the first time I flew at low level apart from just level flying.

And I realized a couple things that I can work and add to just doing figure-8s: how fast I can do it and how tight I can make it. Flying the plane much closer to the ground and to me also made it much more interesting - there's just something about seeing and hearing the swoosh of the plane flying by that just kinda awesome.

After today, I think I realize really I need to work on confidence at low altitude. I realized today you have be on the stick the whole time and I really had to focus hard to make sure I didn't loose orientation.

I think I just found what will keep me busy for a while. And I really do think being able to fly low and be able to see and hear the plane more ... even my trainer ... added some excitement again.

Anyway... I do think the T-28 will be my next step. It won't be for another 7 months at least, but again, I appreciate the inputs you've provided.

I do have some questions about a radio - I do want my next one to last me through the next plane and the plane after that. I'll do some research and if needed, I'll solicit some feedback in new thread.

[FLY BOY]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Thanks guys.  Yeah, I think I've definitely come down from the allure of the 1700mm Corsair.  You gotta admit - that flight review by MRC is enticing!  

I was encouraged by today's airtime at the field flying the trainer.  I came down from my usual 3-mistake high altitude and just started working on figure-8s at lower level.  It definitely made me pucker up.  Its the first time I flew at low level apart from just level flying.

And I realized a couple things that I can work and add to just doing figure-8s: how fast I can do it and how tight I can make it.  Flying the plane much closer to the ground and to me also made it much more interesting - there's just something about seeing and hearing the swoosh of the plane flying by that just kinda awesome.

After today, I think I realize really I need to work on confidence at low altitude.  I realized today you have be on the stick the whole time and I really had to focus hard to make sure I didn't loose orientation.

I think I just found what will keep me busy for a while.  And I really do think being able to fly low and be able to see and hear the plane more ...  even my trainer ...  added some excitement again.

Anyway... I do think the T-28 will be my next step.  It won't be for another 7 months at least, but again, I appreciate the inputs you've provided.

I do have some questions about a radio - I do want my next one to last me through the next plane and the plane after that.  I'll do some research and if needed, I'll solicit some feedback in new thread.

BRAVO!!!!!!!. My second radio was a Spectrum DX6I. Great radio for the price, and its a 10 channel programmable. I can run 10 different planes 1 radio. Just change the channel on the radio to the plane u wanna fly that day. Durable and has never malfunctioned. I still use it to this day and its 3 years old now. Futaba and spectrum are the best out there. Trust me, U want QUALITY!!, Step up and pay the extra bucks. Dont let ur money fly away because u skimped. Happy flying.

[Hippie 64]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

I'm really glad to read your backing away , for now only , on the Cosair . It's beautiful plane and would hate to see you invest then not get to enjoy it . That's worse than anything else and can discourage you from the hobby . Take your time increase your skills .
Bringing your Flying down closer brought back the thrill of flying for you . Now you see and get a feel for what your plane is doing . Enjoy ,

Bryan 

[Grossman56]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Just to put my two cents in on a radio.  I have a Spectrum Dx6i as well and it is a great choice.  However, I'm looking at the Dx8 now and wishing I'd gone that way.  The Dx6i doesn't have a three position switch which I'm learning to my chagrin, you need to use an Eagle A3L Gyro, or any gyro I guess, short of the 635 receiver.  I would think about these things before making the purchase.  Both radios are great, depends on where you want to go


Grossman56 

[dbbyleo]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

My initially thought is I need at least need 6 channels - 4 main controls, plus flaps and retracts. But someone at the airfield told me that I would need an extra channel if I run a BEC. I haven't verified it yet, but is this true? If it is, then it would seem like I would need at least a 7channel setup. Or do I just need a 7channel Rx and still use a 6ch Tx? Anyway... I've heard of these gyros but still need to do recons on what exactly they do.

[Hippie 64]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Think about your future plane and different types . There are a few planes that need more than seven channels. Ex. If you have flaps and retracts your at six , you Could be flying a plane that has options for a bomb bay door . Some of the bigger Jets need more than six .
Your BEC is your throttle coming from ESC . That powers all your servos also . This is on most stock setups . Some people choose to add their own BEC which will then go into the Battery pins on your receiver . If you are able to its best to plan for future and probably go with a 8 or even 10 channel radio .


Bryan 

[FLY BOY]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Just to put my two cents in on a radio.  I have a Spectrum Dx6i as well and it is a great choice.  However, I'm looking at the Dx8 now and wishing I'd gone that way.  The Dx6i doesn't have a three position switch which I'm learning to my chagrin, you need to use an Eagle A3L Gyro, or any gyro I guess, short of the 635 receiver.  I would think about these things before making the purchase.  Both radios are great, depends on where you want to go


Grossman56 

More food for thought, When I first got my Hobby Eagle AL-3, I said oh crap, my DX6-I dont have a 3 position switch.
Then I discovered 2 ways to remedy this issue. The first way is just simply install a 3 position flap switch. Its only $6.oo for the switch and a 1/2 hr to install, or have it installed on the gear switch. My SU-26 has no flaps and fixed gear. So it leaves both options open. The pitfall is installing a gyro on a plane with retracts and flaps. Then I would need the DX8 to get a gyro switch. The option I'm currently using is as follows. With the DX6-I you can use flap mixing to get a 3 position switch. Flap off, half flap deployment, full flap deployment. Its a combo of 2 switches with mixing, but it works.  I suggested the DX6-I for its price, and easy to program. Great second radio for it will teach you how to run the radio, programming ext.  Plus it will be a while before a beginner will need more channels. Happy flying, just want all the options out there so a guy can make his best educated decision. 

[dbbyleo]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

Thanks for the radio inputs guys - I really appreciate them. Good to know there's some options to expanding a DX6i.

Looking forward, I'm interested in scale flying mainly. I love some of these warbirds from FMS because of their scale replicas. For me, one main aspect of that is having flaps and retracts - having sequenced gear doors... even better - that's why I'm pretty bummed FMS took out the sequencer on the T-28 (which will likely be my next plane). Anyway... with that, that brings me up to 6 channels. If things go well in the next couple of years - EDF jet planes would also interest me. I know little about those planes, but I suspect with flaps and retracts plus who knows what else that comes with EDF, I'll likely need for more than 6ch. Browsing the EDF section of 90mm already indicates 7-9 channels.

At any rate, what I'd like to think is in a couple of years I can flying some large scale models in the neighborhood of that 1700mm Corsair. And may be a couple years after that get into something like that new F-16 from Freewing. The preview pics from MRC looks awesome - I can't wait to see the demo on that thing. And if that thing's retracts, sequenced doors, etc, are as scale I would expect*, it'll yet be another plane I'll drool (along side the Corsair) while I wait and work my way up to that level of flight.

*I don't know what it is about sequenced retracts that just turns me on (pardon the language) - I hope its not something similar to a "foot-fetish." I just thing they are the coolest thing when paired up to a very scale model.

So as far as as thinking ahead of what sort of flying I intend to do - I hope that describes it. Right now, I mostly would like to fly to scale, including aerobatics you can expect from the model, and looking forward to being able to fly large scale models. Dropping bombs seems neat, but may be more tinkering than I can afford right now. I do expect to allot for time tinkering in a hobby like this, but my tinker-time (time away from the family) is pricey - so I expect I'll have just be enough to keep in the model in proper working order and maintenance... and of course, in the air.

Lastly, I'm really encourage how great some of these EPO, electric planes are. Yesterday I browsed the EDF section and saw the demo for the Yak. Wow! Again, I can't wait to see the F-16 in an MRC demo. Anyway, good to see I need not move to gas or spend the money to fly a serious looking/sounding model.

And with that, I'm interested in at least something like the DX8, which I imagine should suit my needs for a long time (?)

[Lon]

RE: Am I Ready for the Next Plane?

A couple more thoughts....I'm new to flying this year, and wrestled with the same things you are now as far as radio..and more.  Anyway, I decided on the Dx6i to start. I have programed a 3way switch for flaps on it. And I did some shopping online, and come across a add selling 2 AR635's.  I got the 2 of them for $80!! So that took care of the concern of trying a gyro/stabilizer where you need a 3way switch.  I've found the 635 to work very good in my 1100mm mustangs. And with my 1400mm mustang IronAss, it's so steady on landings even in windy conditions, I have no desire for a gyro in it.

Lon