It would be great to see Motion RC carry planes that have some wood, wether they be sport, warbirds or gliders? Who agrees?
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You might be able to fly it, but can you land it? -
RE: Balsa ARF
I love wood ARF's! Until I recently learned of MotionRC I hated Foam ARF's. I'm thinking Depron and EPS when I say I hated foam.
Unfortunately foam has improved by leaps and bounds in the last 5 years that Wood ARF's are all but dead. I don't think there are any Wood ARF manufactures in China (maybe one or two left). Most are now found in lower labor markets like Vietnam.
I'm sorry to see the wood kit go by the way of the dinosaur. Kits will still be found by cottage industry, low volume (laser cut) kits. Laser kits are actually better than the old die crushed kits as the wood can be much lighter than that selected for die cutting. (If the wood is too light it just crushes under the dies rather than being cut).
I fondly remember all the wood ARFs from Eastern Europe in the late 90's.
This should be a cautionary tail, if you see something you like buy it. There a good chance it will be lost to the sands of time soon enough!
All the best,
Konrad -
RE: Balsa ARF
Wood ARFs may be fading away as time passes, but there is still great enough demand for wood ARFs that Motion RC should at least consider stocking at least a few products of this nature.Originally posted by Konrad
Wood ARFs are still extremely popular in RC clubs, at least in the Chicagoland area. All successful retailers of RC products sell a diverse pool of products, for example, Horizon Hobby is getting along great, because it sells products that appeal to a diverse group of customers. MRC is still my go to, since it has great customer service, and a warehouse that is in my general area, but I wish they could expand into wood ARFs as well.
I have an E-flite Rhapsody that was discontinued, hence the profile pic, and it is an absolute dream to fly. It isn't touched by the wind and can perform a manner of aerobatics. Motion RC sells great products, but why not develop some more products (or just stock up on) that will appeal to people that just love wood ARFs.
Regards,
MartinYou might be able to fly it, but can you land it?Comment
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RE: Balsa ARF
I'm sorry to say that Horizon has been steadily shrinking their exposer to wood ARF,s. I still have in my que these from E-Flite.Originally posted by martmichals
We won't see these again as the Freewing is so much better and cheaper once ready to fly
The Dynam killed the PKZ and is probably suppressing (addressing) demand for another Albatross
The FMS Pitts looks to have this market tied up
And the new FMS P-40B killed any market hope of seeing this again.
E-flite saw there was no profit in this wood kit.
And came out with this in foam.
These are wood ARF that have died mainly as a result of there being a better value product in foam.
As a former manufacture of wood and glass kits it pains me to say this. But wood kits and ARF's are dead as a mass-market commodity even if a few manufactures don't know that the coffin lid is being nailed on as we watch.
It is better for MotionRC to spend their resources on new viable products looking towards the future rather than backwards to the models and kits of our youth. I like what I've seen in the way of the P-38 , 80mm and 90mm jets, and lets not forget the 70mm F-104. All really just day dreams for the sport pilot in the old days of glow. Now it is just check book modeling!
All the best,
KonradComment
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I hope this balsa ARF gloom and doom isn't totally true. Tower Hobbies ARF's seem to be going strong. MRC and TH are the only place I buy from, anymore. DocComment
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I too wish that the wood kit and ARFs were viable as mass market product. They are just too expensive when measured against foam models. Yes, there will always be wood kits and ARFs but from cottage industries like these
Now I have to admit I don't shop Hobbico, Great Planes (AKA Tower Hobbies). Lets hope they can buck the trend!
All the best,
KonradComment
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In my limited experience with "foamies", I continue to be amazed at the abuse they can take, and their ease of repair . Years ago I loved building, but my old fingers are not as adept as they once were, so I really appreciate the ability to fly a PNP model that has great flying ability, and ease of repair.Comment
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I have actually just started to get into balsa and so far I really like them. I have several E-Flite, and Great Planes models now. Actually as far as cost, it's pretty much a wash if you buy a $200.00 foamie. I just finished building the now discontinued E-Flite Mini Pulse and it is sweet. I may get a second one before they run out for a spare.
I still have and love my foamies, but I'm not sure balsa will ever go away totally.Addicted to planes!Comment
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More arguments in support of my position that the wood ARF is dead.
These prices are the street price from their respective web sites, Not sale or close out prices.
The wood 52 inch wing span Pulse 25 goes for $200 and that’s just the airframe. To compare Apples to Apples we need to out fit it with the OEM recommended equipment.
From the list below it will cost an additional $274 to complete the wood ARF to the same level of completeness as the comparable model sold as a BNF ARF. for a total cost of $474!
(Add the RX 656 for $100 and the cost climbs to $574)
Now lets assume that the E-Flite branding of components results in a mark up of 100%. We can then comfortably assume that we can find comparable components for 1/2 the cost.
So to outfit the wood ARF Pulse it would cost $137 That brings the BNF wood ARF cost down to $337
E-Flite has recently released the slightly bigger 55” Pulse 15e in foam for $240
Going by the number the smaller wood ARF won’t fly in the market place with the added $100 premium on the cost.
You and I might buy the wood ARF looking at other factors other than cost. But as a company MotionRC would be better off spending their limited resources elsewhere. After all business is all about the numbers.
P.S.
I see I failed to add the price of the RX $100 to the wood ARF to make it a BNF, so the premium for the wood ARF is $200 in real terms. Or $574 vs $200 in Horizon Hobbies dollars.
P.P.S.
I'll need to clean this up as I confused BNF with PNP, but the magnitude of the differences in price is still the same.
Wood ARF's are just too expensive
An E-flight 52” Pulse wood ARF $200
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/De...ProdID=EFL4100
JR NM48 $25, 4@$100
http://www.espritmodel.com/jr-sport-...ini-servo.aspx
ESC $75
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/De...odID=EFLA1040B
Motor 25 $75
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/De...odID=EFLM4025A
Spinner $24
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/De...rodID=EFLSP225
Pulse 15e $240
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/De...D=EFL4350#home
http://www.motionrc.com/e-flite-puls...-wingspan-pnp/Comment
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I wouldn't say balsa ARTF models are dead at all. The following companies all make balsa models.
Tower Hobbies.
Top Flite.
Phoenix Models.
Great Planes.
Sig.
AeroWorks.
Flite Model.
Flite Work.
Kyosho
Hangar 9.
I would say there are two different markets though. Some people prefer wood and some prefer foam, and some like me will fly both.
Martin.Comment
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Make or market?
I think most of us prefer wood. But their premium cost makes foam so much more viable in the sport market. True wood and glass are still king when looking at the level of Top Gun models or even local scale contests.
As you have the numbers, how sensitive is the market to sale price variation? $370 seem a bit too wide a price spread to my way of thinking.Comment
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I have nothing personally against balsa ARTFs, but for me the foamies trump balsa because of the very convenient way you can buy replacement parts that go together as neatly as the demolished original parts. In many cases the foamies can be easily repaired after crashes that would require an almost complete rebuild of a balsa a/c. I do, of course, realize that the object is to not crash in the first place.Comment
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I've been able to replace the subassemblies on wood ARFs just as easily as on foam models.
Look under "Parts and Accessories"
http://www.horizonhobby.com/storefro...0e-arf-efl9000
With wood and glass models most of my repairs result in a finish that is just as good or better. In my opinion this is still a weakness of foam EPO ARF as their repairs still are easy to see.
Sorry not sure I see (understand) your perspective on convenient. It is just as convenient to bring out my check book to buy a wood subassembly as a foam subassembly. ;)
All the best,
KonradComment
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Balsa models are more complex that Foam, and they do require patience and skill to repair. It is much easier to piece a foam model back together than it is to make effective repairs to balsa and ply. In the early days of ARTF models there was no such thing as get the cheque book out and buy replacement parts, they simply were not available. One either repaired it or bought another model.
I love balsa models, I also love foam models and they each have advantages and disadvantages.
Martin.Comment
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Not sure how far back in time your are looking. Are you referencing Lanier's foam and plastic parts, then I have to ask why would you want their parts!Originally posted by Martin.MotionRC View Post
For ARF I could get parts for any of the wood ARF that Kyosho marketed in the 80's, I could even get patterns to make most parts as many of these ARF's were built on the wood kits they sold.
Model Tech kits also had part support in the 80's I was also able to get parts for many of the German ARFs; Graupner, Robbe, Simpro and Multiplex in the 80's and 90's.
Going back further into the 70's I got replacement parts for these foam Midwest ARF Chipmunks.
Part support can be an issue today. That is why it is important to deal with a reputable firm like MotionRC when taking the longer view past the initial purchase.
Piecing back foam into a flying model with epoxy and strapping tape then yes, that is easy. But to repair a foam model so that it performs and looks like new, no that was very difficult back then and still is difficult today.
My point isn't that some of use love wood ARFs, it is that they aren't viable (well not for long) in today's market.Comment
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In the late 1980s and early 1990s the only way to get replacement parts for Pilot EZ models was a special order which took forever, most of the time one got fed up waiting and gave up. This was certainly the case in the UK. It was also the case for all the Graupner, Robbe, Simprop, Model Tech, and Multiplex models.
Martin.Comment
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Never did the EZ stuff much as I never learned how to repair that laminated foam board over wood structure.
Sounds like a problem with the UK suppliers. Maybe the VAT drove sales volumes down as to make it uncompetitive to sell parts in the UK as apposed to having parts available in the USA. I can't think of any high end ARFs I may have had (wood or foam) in the USA that end up as hanger queens.
Now I need to let folks know that I usually buy two of any one model. This is as a competitive flier, I don't want to learn a "new" models quirk in the middle of the competition season. This is a habit I carry on with today. These old kits in my attic are all still viable as they have all their parts. I may have robbed them during the flying season but I tried to replaced the parts before the OEM deemed that these models were obsolete.
Now I do have more than a few Heli's that are worthless parts queens as some small major part is no longer available!Comment
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Every time I have put a crashed foamy back together, it performed much better because of mods and upgrades. Great Planes seems to be going strong. As far as woodies vs. foamies... I love them both! DocComment
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So true. I just took out 2.5 oz of weight from my wood ARF E-flite 20-300 Ultimate by moving the second bulk head aft. The bulkhead is the battery mount. So by moving the bulkhead aft so goes the battery allowing me to remove 2 oz of weight from the tail. This and a change in the ESC resulted in a loss of 2.5 oz making for much better 3D flight.
Sorry, I don't see how post crash upgrades are unique to foam models. We do them to all construction types. Can you guys honestly tell me that you have developed repair process for foam model that result in the repair looking as good as the pre-damaged condition. If so I'd like to ask you to make a thread detailing your processes.
All the best,
Konrad
P.S.
I know of one process; buy replacement parts!:rolleyes:Comment
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Weeeeell... no, but they fly better!Comment
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