Advice Choosing 2nd Plane

[danloc78]

Hi,

I'm new to the hobby and the forum. I bought a Champ a little over a year ago. Banged it up pretty good while learning. I've fixed it a few times and have had many successful take-offs/landings since. I can now keep her flying without any trouble.

I had my sights set on the E-flite Apprentice w/SAFE as my 2nd plane. But I'm worried I would get bored with it. I guess my question is, should I go the safe route, or could I handle a 44" P-51 or similar warbird? I am a pretty quick learner, but...if I crash...I won't be doing much learning.

I would love to have retracts/flaps...not just for the appearance...but to help SLOW the plane prior to landing.

On my list of planes I'm considering are:

E-flite P-51D BNF Basic with AS3X (48")
E-flite P-51D BNF Basic with AS3X (44")
E-flite P-47D BNF Basic with AS3X (42.2")
E-flite T-28 BNF (48.2")
E-flite Apprentice S w/SAFE
Hobbyzone Sportsman S+ w/SAFE
Hobbyzone F4U Corsair S w/SAFE

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
Dan

[fhhuber]

RE: Advice Choosing 2nd Plane

Retracts are mainly to let the plane speed up more by getting the wheels out of the way fo the airflow.

Flaps used correctly can help... used wrong they'll cause the crash.

Similarly, AS3X used right can help considerably. Used incorrectly it can become a crutch and prevent making progress with your flying skills.
Any tool used correctly helps and used incorrectly is worse than not having the tool.

T-28 is better than the P-51 or Corsair for beginners. Its a more stable airplane. You wouldn't be as dependent on the AS3X.
I'm not familiar with the Sportsman.

There have been thousands of people who learned with the earlier version (smaller) T-28, without the AS3X or SAFE gyro/autopilot systems. And then the plane is capable of most aerobatics including some introductory 3D style.

Due to the current trend for just about all Parkzone/E-Flite planes to come BNF/RTF with AS3X or SAFE, I think it would be helpful to learn how to use the system. (I haven't got any airplanes with it yet...) I have seen crashes caused by the SAFE system (bad CG) I've seen the system prevent crashes.

[danloc78]

RE: Advice Choosing 2nd Plane

Thanks for the comments. I can understand how using all the *helpful* features incorrectly could get someone into trouble, especially newbies.

My first foray into RC was about 8 years ago. I purchased a parkzone P-51 as my first plane. I had no clue what I was doing, no idea about center of gravity, or hi/lo rates, or any of that. Needless to say, the hobby didn't get off the ground at that time and I ended up selling the plane for parts.

Hence the Champ, which has been a good trainer. But any sort of wind and the plane is grounded for the day. That's why I'd really like something bigger.

[Alpha]

RE: Advice Choosing 2nd Plane

Hey Dan, welcome to the hobby, and to the Forum! I'd echo the comments Fhhuber offered. Stepping up from your Champ, the basic Eflite T-28 BNF is a popular choice, and for good reason. If you're tempted to expand into Horizon's product lineup (Spektrum radios, and Parkzone/Eflite/Hobbyzone planes), then look for an RTF option to start out, if you don't want to invest in a Spektrum radio just yet. The RTF with SAFE bundles are especially helpful because they're configured at the factory so the risks of user setup error are minimized (Just ensure you calibrate properly, set CG, following the manual, as usual).

The Hobbyzone Super Cub S RTF/SAFE bundle is essentially a larger version of your Champ. Easy to fly, and it will teach you rather than fight you. From your list, the Apprentice takes the cake in my book. The Sportsman is nice as well, but the wheel pants can give you problems on grass so be mindful of that. I would recommend avoiding the P-51 or Corsair until you have mastered landing and handling more trainer-oriented aircraft without SAFE assistance.

[WintrSol]

RE: Advice Choosing 2nd Plane

One other thing - the P-51 and Corsair are tail-draggers, which will add still one more thing to deal with. I'd recommend the Pandora in tail-dragger configuration, as it is a gentle, slow flier, and isn't as hard to deal with when learning to get the tail up and down.

[chevstar]

RE: Advice Choosing 2nd Plane

Hey Dan welcome to the hobby, I would highly recommend the Pandora as your second plane it can be flown in four different configurations,ounce your flying the low wing tail dragger then you can move on to the T-28 then the mustang  just sayin

[Konrad]

RE: Advice Choosing 2nd Plane

I have to ask, are you using an instructor? If not and you are trying to teach yourself to fly, then stay with the SAFE models!
As it looks like you are moving from a 3 channel (rudder elevator throttle) to a 4 channel model (with ailerons added) you will be in for a bit of a learning curve. The way ailerons turn an aircraft is a lot different from how a rudder turns the model. So is the elevator interaction.
I don't see the use of AS3X as being a problem as it really just expands the flight envelope. Allows you to fly in more wind. Staying with the SAFE system can become a crutch as SAFE is a a flight stabilization system as opposed to just a gyro system of the AS3X. So if flying with a SAFE model do try to ween yourself off of it as you progress with your flying skills.

As to being bored, bells and whistle have nothing to do with making an aircraft more advance and exciting. Advanced models have more to do with wing loading. I will tell you I flew for 10 years before I used more than 4 channels in the planes I flew. 40 years later I can say that nothing gives me more of a thrill than landing my models in an 18 mph 90° cross on the numbers!

As you are looking for a second model I think you should really be putting your efforts into your next radio. Planes will come and go but radios hang around for a lot longer.
Give this thread a good read

http://www.hobbysquawk.com/forum/electronics-and-rc-accessories/radios-receivers-and-accessories/2011-radio-upgrade

The short of it is this get the Apprentice 15 and more radio than you need. If you get bored with the hobby I'm sure you can sell the radio on Craig's List for more than the upgrade cost moving from those game boy TX that come in most RTF model.

All the best,
Konrad

[martmichals]

RE: Advice Choosing 2nd Plane

I've flown a champ, and to me the next logical step would be a FMS Dragonfly, as it isn't that hard to fly, and you should be able to fly it without trouble. The FMS dragonfly was my first plane, and I would assume that you could avoid the crashes I had with the experience that you already have with the Champ.

The FMS dragonfly, in my opinion, is a great way to get into flying 4 channel aircraft.
Good Luck with whatever you do choose!

[danloc78]

RE: Advice Choosing 2nd Plane

Thanks all for the great suggestions and warm welcome.

Konrad, I will probably try to use an instructor, depending on which plane I get. Ailerons, I understand how they work. I know it's not quite the same, but I've flown all sorts of simulators and understand the concept. But I also know it's going to be challenging navigating with ailerons without a cockpit view. That was my draw to the SAFE technology...I could use the beginner and intermediate modes until I got the plane up in the air and worked on mastering the use of ailerons.

As for the radio, I am really only looking at BNF models right now because I'd like to get a 6-channel radio for using down the line when I get some more advanced models. However, I read through the manual yesterday and there were a lot of things that were over my head. It might be beneficial to go with another RTF since I really don't know anyone else in the hobby locally that could help me set up the radio.

Another model I've had my eye on is the Parkzone Sport Cub (51") BNF. The description says it will work with any 4-channel DSM2/DSMX radio. Does that mean it will work with the radio that came with the champ? If so, I'd have everything I need for $219.
[hr]

Hey Dan welcome to the hobby, I would highly recommend the Pandora as your second plane it can be flown in four different configurations,ounce your flying the low wing tail dragger then you can move on to the T-28 then the mustang  just sayin

Just checked out the Pandora...pretty cool! I'll definitely consider it.

[martmichals]

RE: Advice Choosing 2nd Plane

Thanks all for the great suggestions and warm welcome.

Konrad, I will probably try to use an instructor, depending on which plane I get. Ailerons, I understand how they work. I know it's not quite the same, but I've flown all sorts of simulators and understand the concept. But I also know it's going to be challenging navigating with ailerons without a cockpit view. That was my draw to the SAFE technology...I could use the beginner and intermediate modes until I got the plane up in the air and worked on mastering the use of ailerons.

As for the radio, I am really only looking at BNF models right now because I'd like to get a 6-channel radio for using down the line when I get some more advanced models. However, I read through the manual yesterday and there were a lot of things that were over my head. It might be beneficial to go with another RTF since I really don't know anyone else in the hobby locally that could help me set up the radio.

Another model I've had my eye on is the Parkzone Sport Cub (51") BNF. The description says it will work with any 4-channel DSM2/DSMX radio. Does that mean it will work with the radio that came with the champ? If so, I'd have everything I need for $219.

[hr]

Hey Dan welcome to the hobby, I would highly recommend the Pandora as your second plane it can be flown in four different configurations,ounce your flying the low wing tail dragger then you can move on to the T-28 then the mustang  just sayin

Just checked out the Pandora...pretty cool! I'll definitely consider it.

For a radio, I would recommend the dx6i as it is affordable, and can support functions that you may want in the future. I have one, and the programming is quite intuitive. If you want to get off to a great start learning about transmitters check out the Flite Test Beginner Series. Flite test is a great YouTube channel that has helped many in my rc club get into the hobby.

[ryramZ]

RE: Advice Choosing 2nd Plane

I have to agree with nearly everyone who has chimed in here. I like the Apprentice and the Pandora for this. In this case my vote is for the Apprentice. 3 safe modes easily accessed and AS3X throughout. It's big and lightweight, tricycle gear and it's Spektrum. If you are looking at moving towards other BNF models it makes sense. The DX6 is an excellent radio. I know that reading the manual can be overwhelming, however most of what a radio can do you won't need right away. Instead, look at the manual for the planes your looking at. They tell you very concisely how to set up the plane. Usually in the first couple of pages you can find the setups specific to the radio. The Horizon models really are good at taking out the mystery. You don't have to understand it all because there are only a few things you have to do to set up the plane properly and be able to access the full benefit of what its offering, ie SAFE, flight modes, AS3X and so on.

Apprentice

Ryan

[Pauly]

I agree with Ryan. I have an Apprentice and enjoy flying it. I'm still new to the hobby, but my second choice would be the Pandora which I have also and the Hawksky V2 which I have just maiden it this past weekend and love it. My only input is I know I'm not ready for a P-51 or a Corsair. I know you were saying a 2nd plane. Only if you are ready. If you wanted to try a low wing go with the Pandora in a low wing setting. Good Luck to you

[Grossman56]

Okay, I have to say that I agree with what you guys are saying, but its a hard choice between the Apprentice and the Pandora. I own both and have flown the Apprentice as a confident, experienced pilot and the Pandora from a slightly experienced pilot, having transited from my HobbyZone Supercub, forever known as Ol' Weedwacker, to the Pandora. Personally, I found the Pandora an easier plane to fly, but let me clarify, the Apprentice has the beginner, intermediate and 'experienced' (read 'normal') and I didn't really try it that much , if ever, in 'normal' mode. My wife had never flown before, but we went and got some professional instruction and the we got the Apprentice. As she was still nervous, the Apprentice on beginner mode was perfect for her. Nothing happens quickly in beginner so it gives you a chance to relax and enjoy the hobby. The thing over the Supercub is that you have ailerons right off the bat, which in hindsight is a better way to go, at least to me. Once she flew a few times, I took it up to see what intermediate was like and forgot to switch it back. She took off and flew just fine, brought her around and landed, no trouble, then I told her she was in Intermediate, she couldn't believe it. Proof of mind over matter.
The airplane takes off very easily and will glide forever, so her landings were to turn to final and kill the throttle, line up with the runway and establish a descent. Just as she nears the runway, give her a touch of up elevator to raise the nose just slightly and she lands pretty as you please.
The Pandoras have none of the safety features unless you buy a receiver with them built in, which I suppose you could do. I learned to fly mine, and it took a few wacks at it. I was dealing with tail dragger P factor on a side street, so it was a challenge no to go off the road. Got confident in flying them, and later installed an AL3 Gyro and loved the response so much that all my airplanes have gyros in them now. These planes are so much fun to fly, they're not fast, right out of the box but they are okay.
I flew and flew and flew mine, adding flaps into the mix, until I could fly them with confidence.
So when I stepped up to P51's there wasn't much of a difference, other than speed and retracts. I had my skills down and confidence. Now, I'm not sure if I could have went from Apprentice then into warbirds with the same ease. Taking it all into consideration, you might be best to get an Apprentice and run through the levels, then into a Pandora to build up skill and confidence, then into whatever you dream of.

Grossman56

[Flygirl]

Pretty good reasoning there GMan!

[Grossman56]

It's all about success. No one minds a few challenge/failures along the way as they are learning tools, but like building anything, if your foundation is sound and solid, the confidence to build and progress grows quickly. My case in point. Last Spring I was sill wringing out the Pandoras with varying degrees of success, but definite progress.
By the time the season wrapped up, I had flown all of my three P51's and my Pitts successfully and confidently. Can't wait to get to Spring again and see where I go this year. The point is that if I apply the same method of building my skillset with the Planes I have, including the P40B, then I should be flying every one of them with the same degree of confidence that I fly the Pandoras with. And I was pretty well there last year.

Grossman56

[danloc78]

Thanks for all the input! If I take the plunge it will probably be the Apprentice. Although I have read of people destroying their nose by repeatedly nosing over upon landing on the tricycle gear. I've been looking really closely at the Parkzone Sport Cub and the Freewing Pandora. So many choices.

[Grossman56]

Hey Danloc, I own all three and if you are unsure of flying, go the Apprentice. We have never nosed over our Apprentice, and from what I can see, it would be extremely difficult. The only weakness in the design that I've found was the propeller shaft is a two piece rig. After the prop came off in mid flight, I locktited it back on. You might want to do the same. BTW, the wife was flying it at the time. She pushed the panic button, collected her wits, then proceeded to glide it down for a successful landing. Her first year of flying and she pulled that off. It speaks volumes for the flyablity of the airplane.



If you get one, let me know, heck if you get any of these, let me know and I'll try to help you through the tough spots.

Keep in mind...

Don't hammer the throttle in take off, spend a lot of time flying the pattern and find how slow the airplane will go right off the bat. Memorize your slow flight setting, give yourself a lot of approach to landing, with the apprentice, do your turn to final at 25-30 feet, and chop throttle, this thing loves to fly. Keep her lined up with the run way by using small corrections of aileron, extend your glide if you have to by easing the nose up slightly. Just before touchdown, pull the nose up slightly and let her settle on her mains. It gets to be a game to time that bump just right, its fun!!
These guys who get a plane airborne and are flipping and looping on the first flight , then do what could be kindly called a controlled crash for a landing really make me laugh and they keep MotionR/C in business!! These are the ones who nose over a tricycle geared airplane, and then blame the plane!! LOL

Grossman56

[Iowa54]

I can't speak for the Apprentice but, I learned on the Tail dragger setup on the Pandora. Its an easy plane to fly with enough power to buck some wind. What ever you buy I would suggest buying a couple extra props and read up on the forums for any tips/ problems for what ever model you chose.

[danloc78]

Hey Danloc, I own all three and if you are unsure of flying, go the Apprentice. We have never nosed over our Apprentice, and from what I can see, it would be extremely difficult. The only weakness in the design that I've found was the propeller shaft is a two piece rig. After the prop came off in mid flight, I locktited it back on. You might want to do the same. BTW, the wife was flying it at the time. She pushed the panic button, collected her wits, then proceeded to glide it down for a successful landing. Her first year of flying and she pulled that off. It speaks volumes for the flyablity of the airplane.

Hey there Grossman, I appreciate your advice, thanks for chiming in.

I'm actually pretty comfortable flying. Although yesterday I had another Champ crash. It was a bit too windy for the Champ, but the crash had nothing to do with the wind. I was riding the breeze beautifully until my daughter asked if this plane could do loops and rolls. I said, 'well, it can't do rolls, but it can do loops. Here watch'

After several successful loops I got a little carried away as the kids were cheering me on. I got a little too low and slammed into the ONLY small tree around. Mostly user error but definitely a little bad luck! The main wing snapped in half. Easy fix though so she'll be back up flying in no time.

We all had a good laugh about it. I will be more careful with the Apprentice :)

[Alpha]

I have frequent fights with those kinds of trees, Dan, you're not alone :)