Retracts vs. Fixed?

[danloc78]

Hey all,

I've just become a member at a local club and passed my solo test. I hope to get my first prop warbird in the late summer/fall. Of course I have my eye on about 20 different models. :)

My instructor at the club gave me some sage advice to stick with fixed gear for now until I really master landings. The logic being that retracts break much more easily and when that's the case you're grounded until you fix.

Looks like a lot of the retracts on the new planes are pretty robust, and we take off and land on grass at our club. I was just looking for some more opinions on whether I should definitely steer clear of retracts for now or if I should go for it.

I really like the Eflite 1.2m T-28. I flew my instructors T-28 with fixed gear and it was a joy to fly, easy to take off and land. Looks like the bigger brother might be even easier to take off and land with the flaps deployed. Those slower landings might be a lot easier on the landing gear and keep those retracts intact.

Thoughts from all of you with much, much more experience?

Thanks!
Dan

[F106DeltaDart]

First of all, congratulations on the solo! I would personally say that you could go straight to retracts, but only on a few planes. As long as you have landings down well: smooth, slow, and no bouncing, the transition to an introductory warbird with retracts should be doable. One of my students went straight from the Apprentice to the Durafly T-28 with problem. However, I will give some warnings on selecting the right plane. Do Not get anything with rotating retracts (i.e. Corsair or P-40). They are much more prone to problems then normal retracts, particularly from grass. Second, avoid Dynam retracts. They are plastic, and will not last off a grass field even with great landings. Avoid Spitfires, the narrow landing gear makes them easy to ground loop and hard to land. Once you master an introductory warbird, you can look at all that stuff. I would say the best planes to start with retracts are P-51s and T-28s. I have flown the eflite P-51 1100m and it is a real sweet plane to fly and could be a good first plane with retracts. Same with the 1.2m T-28. There are some trade offs between the two though. Nose gear planes like the T-28 are easier to takeoff and land, but the nose gear tends to take a lot of force, and can fail more often then main gear. Just check it after every flight and make sure the mount is secure and the strut isn't bent. Tail draggers like the P-51 are more prone to nose-overs on grass, but the mains are less likely to fail. They are also harder to takeoff, because the prop toque is more pronounced. This just means you will have to feed in right rudder to keep it straight on takeoff, and hold up elevator during taxi to keep it from nosing over. If you do decide to go with retracts, the larger 1.2m and up models will do much better than their 1100mm counterparts on grass.

[benjack71]

The T-28 is a good choice. But, you have to learn to land on the mains and not the nose. It will not tolerate a little bit low on the nose landings. Practice getting the flare down so the planes nose is at a slight up angle every time you land.

[danloc78]

Thanks guys! I think with the flaps on the 1.2m T-28 I'd be able to come in nice and slow and touch down softly on a consistent basis. On the more windy days maybe I'll just stick with the Sport Cub S2 until I have more experience landing in those conditions.

Solid tips for the grass runway Delta. Thank you very much!

[doctormike]

I have an E-Flite P51 Mustang. I have had no problem with the retracts and it is a sweet plane to fly. If you want to learn retracts and flaps, this is the plane for you! Doc

[KitBuilder]

Will this be plane you fly prior to a trainer high wing type?
Fixed gear are robustly installed if your building a kit.. in an ARF... not very much, especially if its foam based.

[xviper]

Retracts are a nice feature and really lends to the form and function of any scale warbird. They just look neat when they retract after take off and drop down when coming in for a landing. However, until you get close to "greasing" your landings, retracts can and almost always be a headache. A good, hard thump on landing can cause a lot of damage to one or more of the retracts. Even repeated rough landings will break something eventually. Add to this, grass and you've got a formula for more breakage.
There are so many areas on a retract (in a foamie) that can be the source of numerous problems. The struts can bend severely and unlike a fixed gear, bending it back involves applying undue force on the retract. The retract itself can strip. The retract body can crack. The retract can pull out of its mount. The mount itself can pull out of the foam. There are "tough" retracts and there are not so tough retracts. There are no such thing as indestructible retracts. Smack them hard enough and any of them can break. I fly off grass, very rough grass and my planes' retracts get a beating not only from landing but also from just taking off. My last plane (LX A-10 Warthog) broke it's front retract on the take off roll. All the previous bouncing on the ground from take offs and landings took its toll on that one. Oh, and I consider myself a "not bad" lander, but you can't do much about very rough ground. Even plush grass can create severe strain on retracts.
On the last topic of flaps, don't let that give you a false sense of "easier" landings. Take offs might be shortened a bit but the increased lift can fool you into thinking the plane is going faster than it really is and a wing over can happen in a blink. Landings can also be deceptive as the stall speed can be lowered but this changes the flight characteristics of the plane to the point where it can suddenly fall out of the air and even if this happens 3 feet off the deck, the sudden impact can be just as hard. I've seen lots of pilots new to flaps slam the plane into the dirt from a couple feet up and do some severe damage. Flaps are great but you need to know how to use them. Generally, some power must be maintained to prevent an untimely and premature stall.

[danloc78]

I have an E-Flite P51 Mustang. I have had no problem with the retracts and it is a sweet plane to fly. If you want to learn retracts and flaps, this is the plane for you! Doc

Thanks Doctormike, which specific Mustang is it? I was kinda looking forward to a non-taildragger but I do love mustangs...

Will this be plane you fly prior to a trainer high wing type?
Fixed gear are robustly installed if your building a kit.. in an ARF... not very much, especially if its foam based.

Hi KitBuilder...No...I've flown a Champ for the past 3 years and this past February I got a parkzone sport cub s2. I really like it and the guys at the field keep asking about it...might be seeing a few more of them around before the summer is out.

[danloc78]

xviper2...thanks for the input! The last thing I want to be doing is spending more time fixing than flying...so this will be a tough decision for sure.

As for your comments about flaps, I have experienced exactly what you described...the sudden drop from 3 feet or so, which I am positive was due to me cutting the power too soon. I've since learned throttle management on landings is very important. So while I do come in slow, I am now trying to always give a little throttle to avoid that stall and fall problem. Luckily both times it happened the plane was unharmed.

[F106DeltaDart]

I don't think you are going to spend more time fixing then flying. The eflite retracts are pretty robust, but Xviper is right. Eventually you will need to fix or replace one. One of the most important things to do before flight is cycle the retracts as part of your pre-flight. That way you can catch it if one is giving you problems. And the nice thing about that grass field is that even if a gear doesn't come down, you can probably belly land it with little or no damage. It is also a good idea to know how an electric retract works in case you have to troubleshoot one. I'll try to find a cutaway and post it here.

[xviper]

Thanks Doctormike, which specific Mustang is it? I was kinda looking forward to a non-taildragger but I do love mustangs...

Horizon Hobby markets 2 models of P-51 by Eflite. (The others are Hanger 9 or FMS.) One fellow at my field has one of the Eflites and another guy has the Eflite "Red Bull" Corsair that is made by FMS. On both planes, flown off our lumpy, bumpy grass field, you guessed it ................... retracts were the weak links. Both these fellas have since repaired the retracts (more than once) and now can "grease" every landing. The retracts seem to be holding up now but every once in a while, one still comes loose or bends enough that the tire won't fit into its recess. Additionally, both planes can display terrible "weather vaning" in the slightest cross wind, making take offs a real challenge. We can't always take off directly into the wind at our field. Nose overs can also be a problem, but yes, they are great flying planes.

[F106DeltaDart]

Here is a picture that has the parts of a retract labeled and a quick explanation of how it works. The motor rotates the jackscrew which pulls the threaded driver along it. This then forces the trunnion to rotate, retracting or extending the gear. When the driver has reached the end of its travel limit, it locks the trunnion in place, and hits one of the microswitches. These tell the motor to stop running the jackscrew. The retract here is shown in the extended position. One thing to note is that for a plane with fore/aft deploying gear (like a nose wheel), is that the torque on the strut from taxi and takeoff loads puts entirely on the jackscrew and driver. So try to limit taxiing on grass and make sure the mains hit first on landing. The jackscrew and the plastic housing itself are the most common points of damage. Sometimes, a bit of debris can also cause the retract to become intermittent. In this case, just open it up and remove the debris and you are good to go again. Ive done that at the field before and it only takes around 10 min.