Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

[Bill]

I have received the Freewing Me 262 from MotionRC and I am excited.
I am looking for advice on the EDF before the maiden.
On reading and looking at the videos I have found, there seems to be a weakness in the nose area. Specifically, when the nose gear receives some extra aft pressure on landing, the nose snaps off just forward to the battery hatch. I fly on grass and believe I will have some not so perfect landings.
Anyone have advice on whether to reinforce the nose, and if so, how to do it?
Thanks

[CT]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

I have received the Freewing Me 262 from MotionRC and I am excited.
I am looking for advice on the EDF before the maiden.
On reading and looking at the videos I have found, there seems to be a weakness in the nose area. Specifically, when the nose gear receives some extra aft pressure on landing, the nose snaps off just forward to the battery hatch. I fly on grass and believe I will have some not so perfect landings.
Anyone have advice on whether to reinforce the nose, and if so, how to do it?
Thanks

Bill,
I used cf rods along each side of the bat bay, making sure to bury each end extending past the hatch. You can also install them on the bottom on each side of the retract bay but they will be partially visible. I modded mine after a hard landing on grass, does'nt seem to take much.
Chris

[Bill]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

I have received the Freewing Me 262 from MotionRC and I am excited.
I am looking for advice on the EDF before the maiden.
On reading and looking at the videos I have found, there seems to be a weakness in the nose area. Specifically, when the nose gear receives some extra aft pressure on landing, the nose snaps off just forward to the battery hatch. I fly on grass and believe I will have some not so perfect landings.
Anyone have advice on whether to reinforce the nose, and if so, how to do it?
Thanks

Bill,
I used cf rods along each side of the bat bay, making sure to bury each end extending past the hatch. You can also install them on the bottom on each side of the retract bay but they will be partially visible. I modded mine after a hard landing on grass, does'nt seem to take much.
Chris

Thanks Chris.

[Konrad]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

I love my Me 262, but she does have a few issues.

First is that the cutout in the rudder is too small for the carry through between the elevator halves. Trim this cutout so the carry through makes full contact with the rudder opening when at full deflection. Also the hole in the elevator horn is to large for the clevis pin.  I fill the elevator horn holes with thick CA and then redrill the hole for a 0.05mm clearance with the clevis pin.

Also  find a way to stiffen the coupler between the flaps. As supplied it is too soft and the flaps don't move the same amount on ether side of the engine nacelle.

On the nose I melt two  holes with some 3/32 tubing that are about 3 to 4 mm in diameter and about 0.5 m long from the front so that the holes line up  buried in the battery floor and adjacent to the retract mount. I glue in 4 mm carbon tubes into these holes with thick CA and kicker. I then patch the small holes in the nose with light weight spackle. I find that touch up paint can be gotten from Lowe's in that they have a good color matching service.

I also like to use servo connector blocks between the wings and the fuselage as I like to store and transport my Me 262 as a two piece model.

I also rig my ailerons with a bit (maybe 1mm) reflex.

[Bill]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

I love my Me 262, but she does have a few issues.

First is that the cutout in the rudder is too small for the carry through between the elevator halves. Trim this cutout so the carry through makes full contact with the rudder opening when at full deflection. Also the hole in the elevator horn is to large for the clevis pin.  I fill the elevator horn holes with thick CA and then redrill the hole for a 0.05mm clearance with the clevis pin.

Also  find a way to stiffen the coupler between the flaps. As supplied it is too soft and the flaps don't move the same amount on ether side of the engine nacelle.

On the nose I melt two  holes with some 3/32 tubing that are about 3 to 4 mm in diameter and about 0.5 m long from the front so that the holes line up  buried in the battery floor and adjacent to the retract mount. I glue in 4 mm carbon tubes into these holes with thick CA and kicker. I then patch the small holes in the nose with light weight spackle. I find that touch up paint can be gotten from Lowe's in that they have a good color matching service.

I also like to use servo connector blocks between the wings and the fuselage as I like to store and transport my Me 262 as a two piece model.

I also rig my ailerons with a bit (maybe 1mm) reflex.

[Bill]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

Thanks Chris and Konrad.
Here is what I did to attempt to reinforce the nose of the Me 262:
1. I drilled holes on each side of the battery tray, being sure to make the holes into the continuous foam from the tray into the nose. For a drill, I used a pointed file lying on the floor of the tray, in order to keep the holes just above the floor of the battery tray going into the nose. This was so the carbon fiber rods would lie flush against the floor of the battery tray while in the nose foam.
2. The file would go into the nose a distance of 7 cm without piercing the outer surface of the nose, and the rods would slide in easily. The rods were 3 mm in diameter and 28 cm long. This left a long distance of the rods to secure to the floor of the battery tray aft of the nose, for a stronger lever against the nose moving downward.
3. To fix the rods in place, I plan to epoxy the rods into the nose holes while epoxying the bottom of the rods to the floor of the battery tray. To further fix the rods to the floor of the battery tray, I plan to epoxy a narrow length of fiberglass cloth over the entire length of the rods on each side of the tray.

I am trying to avoid marring the exterior of the nose for now. 

I have not epoxied the rods in place, and would appreciated any other suggestions or criticisms of my plan before I epoxy.

Thanks,
Bill

[Pheonix]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

I have received the Freewing Me 262 from MotionRC and I am excited.
I am looking for advice on the EDF before the maiden.
On reading and looking at the videos I have found, there seems to be a weakness in the nose area. Specifically, when the nose gear receives some extra aft pressure on landing, the nose snaps off just forward to the battery hatch. I fly on grass and believe I will have some not so perfect landings.
Anyone have advice on whether to reinforce the nose, and if so, how to do it?
Thanks

I cannot recall where; however there is a very good article on the web on how to reinforce the nose gear on the ME262.  I will see if I can find and post it.  From what I can remember, the fix was after a crash in which the nose gear sheared off.  I am getting gun shy now after some real condensing comments on earlier posts. 

[Konrad]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

Yes, make a fixture to keep the boring tool parallel. I like hot tubes as it is fast and easy. I like tubes far better than rods as they are stiffer and follow a truer path when being pushed into the foam.

I find that epoxy doesn't have near the bond strength to polypropylene as thick CA. I also like being able to follow up if needed with thin CA for its capillary action.

Going to Lowe's is one of the first things I do when I get a foam model. As the paint for any brand of model does not adhere well. Just popping on and off the hatches wears off the paint. Then there is my style of flying (Crosswind often dragging a tip)!

Pheoinx,
On the web I've learned to post to help the OP (Bill) as best as I can. This often means ignoring other posters. If you think you have something to contribute, please contribute. Yes, there will always be folks that try to undermine you, but if you are sincere your suggestion will come across as helpfull.

All the best,
Konrad

[Bill]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

Yes, make a fixture to keep the boring tool parallel. I like hot tubes as it is fast and easy. I like tubes far better than rods as they are stiffer and follow a truer path when being pushed into the foam.

I find that epoxy doesn't have near the bond strength to polypropylene as thick CA. I also like being able to follow up if needed with thin CA for its capillary action.

Going to Lowe's is one of the first things I do when I get a foam model. As the paint for any brand of model does not adhere well. Just popping on and off the hatches wears off the paint. Then there is my style of flying (Crosswind often dragging a tip)!

Pheoinx,
On the web I've learned to post to help the OP (Bill) as best as I can. This often means ignoring other posters. If you think you have something to contribute, please contribute. Yes, there will always be folks that try to undermine you, but if you are sincere your suggestion will come across as helpfull.

All the best,
Konrad

Thanks to all who have replied. You have been very helpful and I am having fun figuring this out. That is part of the fun of the hobby to me.
I will let you know how she flies (and lands) after the maiden.
Another thing I have been thinking about concerning the nose popping off. If on touchdown, the nose wheel is not pointed straight ahead, extra force will be applied through the nose gear to the nose. So, I will not be using my rudder during landing.
Bill

[Konrad]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

Not sure that is wise. I use all the controls when landing. Do flair, that is land on the mains. The flaps help a lot with this. Also the little added washout really helps with keeping the tips from stalling. So slow her down and bring the nose up on landing. All the nose failures I've seen on Utube are from lack of flair (Nose gear touches down first) or the plane runs off the runway too fast (rudder control can address this).

I have the luxury of having a long runway. I just line up on final bring her down and at about a 1/2 meter altitude slowly bring up the nose and just wait. I fly off of concrete and Astro turf.

Have you seen how Rich lands the Me 262 on the MotionRc sales video? He is flying off grass. He also claims to have been flying the model for a year.

Yes, the nose is the weak point but it isn't all that weak. I flew her for 6 months with no issues from the nose. Do correct the elevator and flap issues. They will pay huge dividends in how she flies.

Here is a video of my Me 262 showing what an approach should look like. It will only cost you about 2.5 minutes of your life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKGhHF7Ow7o

Yes, there should have been a bit more left rudder added a little earlier as he touched down a bit too far to the right of the centerline.

All the best,
Konrad

P.S.
I see that MotionRC no longer links to this great video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhf__kzq0-M

[Bill]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

Not sure that is wise. I use all the controls when landing.  Do flair, that is land on the mains. The flaps help a lot with this. Also the little added washout really helps with keeping the tips from  stalling. So slow her down and bring the nose up on landing. All the nose failures I've seen on Utube are from lack of flair (Nose gear touches down first) or the plane runs off the runway too fast (rudder control can address this).

I have the luxury of having a long runway. I just line up on final  bring her down and at about a 1/2 meter altitude slowly bring up the nose and just wait. I fly off of concrete and Astro turf.

Have you seen how Rich lands the Me 262 on the MotionRc sales video?  He is flying off grass. He also claims to have been flying the model for a year.

Yes, the nose is the weak point but it isn't all that weak. I flew her for 6 months with no issues from the nose.  Do correct the elevator and flap issues. They will pay huge dividends in how she flies.

Here is a video of my Me 262 showing what an approach should look like. It will only cost you about 2.5 minutes of your life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKGhHF7Ow7o

Yes, there should have been a bit more left rudder added a little earlier as he touched down a bit too far to the right of the centerline.

All the best,
Konrad

P.S.
I see that MotionRC no longer links to this great video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhf__kzq0-M

Thanks, Konrad.
1. Did you remove one red wire (power wire) from one esc to the receiver to prevent reverse electrical flow as discussed in the build video?
2. Did you perform a throttle calibration with the esc's and the transmitter?
If so, did you simultaneously calibrate the throttle to both esc's, with both red wires from the esc's attached to the receiver? I have not tried this yet, and it seems that if both esc's do not go through their beeps together, the calibration using the transmitter throttle arm would not work.
Thanks,
Bill

[Konrad]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

I did not use the BEC included in the ESC. I used a separate BEC from Castle Creations. I disconnected both red wires from the ESC
http://www.motionrc.com/castle-creations-10a-bec/


But if I was to use the included BECs on the ESCs I would remove one of the red leads. This is a good question to ask MotionRC directly.

Both ESC will respond if one of the BEC (red leads) is bypassed. The ESCs get their power from the battery not the RX bus.
Have both ESC plugged in when doing the calibration.

[Bill]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

Not sure that is wise. I use all the controls when landing.  Do flair, that is land on the mains. The flaps help a lot with this. Also the little added washout really helps with keeping the tips from  stalling. So slow her down and bring the nose up on landing. All the nose failures I've seen on Utube are from lack of flair (Nose gear touches down first) or the plane runs off the runway too fast (rudder control can address this).

I have the luxury of having a long runway. I just line up on final  bring her down and at about a 1/2 meter altitude slowly bring up the nose and just wait. I fly off of concrete and Astro turf.

Have you seen how Rich lands the Me 262 on the MotionRc sales video?  He is flying off grass. He also claims to have been flying the model for a year.

Yes, the nose is the weak point but it isn't all that weak. I flew her for 6 months with no issues from the nose.  Do correct the elevator and flap issues. They will pay huge dividends in how she flies.

Here is a video of my Me 262 showing what an approach should look like. It will only cost you about 2.5 minutes of your life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKGhHF7Ow7o

Yes, there should have been a bit more left rudder added a little earlier as he touched down a bit too far to the right of the centerline.

All the best,
Konrad

P.S.
I see that MotionRC no longer links to this great video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhf__kzq0-M

Thanks, Konrad.
1. Did you remove one red wire (power wire) from one esc to the receiver to prevent reverse electrical flow as discussed in the build video?
2. Did you perform a throttle calibration with the esc's and the transmitter?
If so, did you simultaneously calibrate the throttle to both esc's, with both red wires from the esc's attached to the receiver? I have not tried this yet, and it seems that if both esc's do not go through their beeps together, the calibration using the transmitter throttle arm would not work.
Thanks,
Bill

Konrad,
Thanks for the help. I am now about almost assembled. The elevator servo was bad, so hopefully MotionRC will send me a new one. I enjoyed your video.
1. What throws do you set the flaps, and how do you use the flaps. Tell me the throws in distance--I am not good at degrees.
2. How much up aileron for washout do you set.
3. What are your throws for the other control surfaces. I have carved out the elevator groove already.
4. I note that the right engine fan spins to the right, just like the screw that holds the fan--a recipe for fan separation. In fact, Richard has a video of the right fan screw coming loose in flight and a great save of the plane. Do you check that screw to tighten often?
Thanks, I am looking to maiden when the weather permits, and I will let you know the results.
Bill

[Konrad]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

I have put most of my models away for the winter. But as I recall the ailerons are rigged 1-2 mm up, about the thickness of the trailing edge, not much. I also moved the servo arm one spline on the servo output shaft so that the arm is slating forward. This is for some mechanical (true) differential. I may have had to change the push rod. I add (mix) about 8% rudder to the ailerons

Flaps are all I can get. I use about 1/4 to 3/8 for take off. And full flaps for landing. I land with about 20-25% (throttle stick) power on. I also have 6% up elevator mix (I'll need to look to be sure on the direction). The drag link between the flaps is weak and should be re done with thicker (stiffer) wire, but this isn't critical.

I found that the control horns have too much slop, holes are too large. I fill the hole with CA and re-drill the hole to the proper size for the clevis pin.

I've had no problem with the fans. I did re-check the screw after a run and re torqued it while the shaft was hot, no problems since. Now I don't have as much time on my bird as Rich has on his.

I think my throws are stock other than the ailerons. Again I think I'm using all I can get and putting 30% expo on the ailerons.

Note; balance at the point in the manual. While she flies better with the CofG further aft. The problem is the under slung engines. If you get into a stall and add power to get out, the engines will push the nose up even more getting you into a deep stall. Fly a bit nose heavy, if you get into a stall add full down and wait for the nose to drop (maybe add 1/3 power, but not full power! ).

She is a fun model but not one for the beginner. The post stall if the main reason this isn't a plane for low time pilots.

I hope this helps,
Konrad

[Bill]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

I have put most of my models away for the winter. But as I recall the ailerons are rigged 1-2 mm up, about the thickness of the trailing edge, not much. I also moved the servo arm one spline on the servo output shaft so that the arm is slating forward. This is for some mechanical (true) differential. I may have had to change the push rod. I add (mix) about 8% rudder to the ailerons

Flaps are all I can get. I use about 1/4 to 3/8 for take off. And full flaps for landing. I land with about 20-25% (throttle stick) power on. I also have 12% down elevator mix (I'll need to look to be sure on the direction). The drag link between the flaps is weak and should be re done with thicker (stiffer) wire, but this isn't critical.

I found that the control horns have too much slop, holes are too large. I fill the hole with CA and re-drill the hole to the proper size for the clevis pin.

I've had no problem with the fans. I did re-check the screw after a run and re torqued it while the shaft was hot, no problems since. Now I don't have as much time on my bird as Rich has on his.

I think my throws are stock other than the ailerons. Again I think I'm using all I can get and putting 30% expo on the ailerons.

Note; balance at the point in the manual. While she flies better with the CofG further aft. The problem is the under slung engines. If you get into a stall and add power to get out, the engines will push the nose up even more getting you into a deep stall. Fly a bit nose heavy, if you get into a stall add full down and wait for the nose to drop (maybe add 1/3 power, but not full power! ).

She is a fun model but not one for the beginner. The post stall if the main reason this isn't a plane for low time pilots.

I hope this helps,
Konrad

Thanks again for your time, Konrad.

[Konrad]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

....CORRECTION....

Bill,
I just fired up my Me 262 to get some readings for you.

I hope it isn't too late, but I was in error when I said I mixed some down elevator with the flap deployment. I need to mix in UP when the flaps are extended. The elevator moves UP about 1.5mm to 2mm (1/16 to 3/32").


Some of the other values are:
Aileron:   Full Rate:  22mm (7/8”) up  19mm (3/4” down) 

Dual Rate:  16mm (5/8”) up  10mm (3/8”) down

Elevator: Full Rate: 13mm (1/2") up and down
Dual Rate: 6mm (1/4”) up and down

Flaps:  19mm (3/4”) Down on outer panel
           6mm (1/4”) Down on inner panel
                 (Horrible flap linkage)


Rudder: All I can get. I hit the elevators.


I also have a bit of rudder mixed in with the ailerons 2mm (3/32")


I hope this helps.


All the best,
Konrad

[Bill]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

Konrad....CORRECTION....

Bill,
I just fired up my Me 262 to get some reading for you.

I hope it isn't too late but I was in error when I said I mixed some down elevator with the flap deployment. I need to mix in UP when the flaps are extended. The elevator moves UP about 1.5mm to 2mm (1/16 to 3/32").


Some of the other values are:
Aileron:   Full Rate:  22mm (7/8”) up  19mm (3/4” down) 

Dual Rate:  16mm (5/8”) up  10mm (3/8”) down

Elevator: Full Rate: 13mm (1/2") up and down
Dual Rate: 6mm (1/4”) up and down

Flaps:  19mm (3/4”) Down on outer panel
           6mm (1/4”) Down on inner panel
                 (Horrible flap linkage)


Rudder: All I can get. I hit the elevators.


I also have a bit of rudder mixed in with the ailerons 2mm (3/32")


I hope this helps.


All the best,
Konrad


Thanks Konrad. It does help. I was worried about using flaps on the maiden, but thought I needed flaps for the landing. I have at most, 300 ft of grass landing available, so I have to bring her down fast.
I will let you know when she flies. My flying buddy is giving me a hard time about me waiting for a perfect day. I told him I might just taxi until springtime.

[Konrad]

RE: Freewing Me 262 nose reinforcement?

Flaps are effective. Don't bring her is fast (as in a dive). a shallow final will result in needing a lot less runway for the roll out. I actually like to maiden in not perfect conditions a bit, of wind down the runway helps with both take offs and landing. I can't say this enough other than the deep stall she is a ***** cat to fly.