Smart LiPo vs G2

[GuitarGuy1144]

Howdy,
I’ve been out of the hobby for over 10 years and now I’m returning to a hobby I really missed. When I left.. Gas/Nitro was pretty much your only options.. electric was around but it was not very common or well used. Now, I see that has done 180 and it’s all pretty much all electric now. I’m trying to understand the differences of smart LiPo vs G2.. I really don’t understand the differences other than G2 is “newer” technology. From my experience “newer” isn’t always better.. does anyone have insights or experiences with either? And what you gain for one over the other?
thanks in advance for your thoughts or ideas.

[xviper]

G2 just means it's the 2nd generation (and current generation) of these Spektrum "smart" LiPos. You may not even be able to find any 1st gen ones unless a hobby shop has old stock. The new gen will likely have a few updates and improvements over the old. If you like the idea of having all that telemetry and don't mind paying big money for a mediocre product and having to also use a "smart" receiver and a smart ESC, then do it. A smart battery is pointless if you don't have the other components. Real world load tests have shown that Spektrum smart batteries don't put out that they claim. For example, a 100C, 5000mah, 6s smart battery puts out only 20C. That's appalling. Of course, their lower C rated batteries will put out proportionally less. An "average" prop plane fly best on 15C to 20C real world load. An EDF needs and performs the best on at least 35C (real load).
As far as the telemetry goes, you have to learn how to interpret what it tells you and I think most people very quickly realize that all that information is unnecessary and stop paying attention to it. If you feel you can benefit from it and don't mind paying, by all means. However, there are far, far better batteries out there and for much less money.

[GuitarGuy1144]

G2 just means it's the 2nd generation (and current generation) of these Spektrum "smart" LiPos. You may not even be able to find any 1st gen ones unless a hobby shop has old stock. The new gen will likely have a few updates and improvements over the old. If you like the idea of having all that telemetry and don't mind paying big money for a mediocre product and having to also use a "smart" receiver and a smart ESC, then do it. A smart battery is pointless if you don't have the other components. Real world load tests have shown that Spektrum smart batteries don't put out that they claim. For example, a 100C, 5000mah, 6s smart battery puts out only 20C. That's appalling. Of course, their lower C rated batteries will put out proportionally less. An "average" prop plane fly best on 15C to 20C real world load. An EDF needs and performs the best on at least 35C (real load).
As far as the telemetry goes, you have to learn how to interpret what it tells you and I think most people very quickly realize that all that information is unnecessary and stop paying attention to it. If you feel you can benefit from it and don't mind paying, by all means. However, there are far, far better batteries out there and for much less money.

Thanks for the advice and guidance.. I half expected that was the case.. but since I’m new to the world of electric flight.. I was hopeful someone would have some input.

much appreciated sir!

[HangarQueen]

As far as the telemetry goes, you have to learn how to interpret what it tells you and I think most people very quickly realize that all that information is unnecessary and stop paying attention to it.

Telemetry is the next best thing since sliced bread, if you select the right telemetry equipment. I ditched using timers more than a decade ago as soon as I discovered telemetry. Spektrum's "smart" telemetry is smart in the marketing sense, but not very useful, and expensive. They focus a lot on monitoring battery voltage, but people forget that it takes a bit of understanding of how a battery works in order to correctly interpret the voltage values, as it sags a lot when the load on the battery increases. I remember a promo/influencer video of the Eflite F16, where the guy was constantly touting the big advantage of the "smart" telemetry, and ended up crashing the model due to an LVC.
I use current sensors, (have been since 2013 or so), let my radio calculate the corresponding consumption, and call it out to me every 500mAh. I ditched the guesswork of timers, and am better informed about the state of my battery, which gives me longer flights. My timer is still there, merely as a backup in case telemetry fails.
Consumed mAh is the easiest thing ever to interpret, battery voltage isn't.
A good current sensor costs around 30 Euro, a lot cheaper than all this "smart" stuff, and it gives me lots of peace of mind while flying (especially with EDF jets).

[Evan D]

Like many things we all have different opinions about stuff, heck there are still those that refuse to fly anything electric. While I fly just about anything, all tpes of planes, helos, quads, I have gone mostly electric. I have converted most of my glow and all gas. I prefer to not use gyros or other aides in my planes though do have a a few in the more than 100 aircraft I have ready to fly, I think about 6 or so and then the helos and quads have gyros or flight controllers. The flight controllers in my quads come with telemetry but other than that I don't have any and don't care to. I guess I more or less agree with what Xvipers post has. But that's me. A lot of people like to mess with things like telemetry and open source programming...

[HangarQueen]

To each his own, I agree totally, but it's hard for me to understand why you would prefer the guesswork of timers when data is readily available through integrated telemetry.
It's like having a car with a speedometer, but choosing to estimate your speed by rpm and selected gear. The data is there, it is available, inexpensive, hardly any hassle to insert an inexpensive current sensor in series with your ESC.
Whether or not to have a gyro/stabilisation is a different discussion, different arguments. That discussion is about personal preference and taste in way of flying.
But saying that "most people very quickly realize that all that information is unnecessary" can not be further from what I see and hear in the RC world. Most people that move into telemetry are rather amazed at how much this data can improve the experience of getting the most out of your batteries, especially with EDF jets, and in preventing unnecessary stress and LVC incidents. I never had an LVC, thanks to telemetry data. But I've seen LVCs happen with other pilots who rely on timers only. More and more members of my club have been moving towards telemetry, once they have seen the advantages.
Another, the biggest, advantage of telemetry is that I have live, real-time feedback about signal quality from my receiver. What could be against that? Not needed? I agree that one can fly without it, but if it is integrated in all of your receivers, what could be "unnecessary" about that protection? The alternative is having a blinking LED on your receiver in the wreckage after a crash, indicating a loss of signal (as we read too often in crash reports on the forums).
It's not about taste, it is about improvement, in both safety and in comfort, without disadvantages.

[Evan D]

Yes, I am amazed at what is out there available. I don't have integrated telemetry as you say, I don't have "smart" stuff. I'm not going to start buying receivers or ESCs or other stuff to retrofit the 90+ items that I have now that are "dumb" or start buying higher priced smart stuff. Okay you have seen people that have hit LVC, so? You never have had one, so? I've been flying for 50+ years with timers or not even timers, just having a sense when it's time to land. Works for me.

And I do think it's comparable to gyros and flight controllers... I just disagree and your argument won't change that. You do it your way and I'll do it mine.

I fly at a very active club. I'd guess less than a quarter have any kind of telemetry and use it, it's one thing to have it and another to know how to use it and actually use it. Not to say it's not increasing but to be honest I think the only reason it's increasing is newer stuff has it so they then have it. Most that have it don't use it at all.

[xviper]

Spektrum's "smart" telemetry is smart in the marketing sense, but not very useful, and expensive.

Well, wasn't that exactly what I was talking about? He brought up the Spektrum smart batteries. That was what I responded to. Your post even agreed with that, didn't it?

Look, we all know from your previous posts what you think of "telemetry". It works for you and you think it's great. Others DO NOT.
Yesterday, just for the heck of it, I hooked up some telemetry for a jet and for one of my sailplanes. I also always have a timer going. On the jet, the voice told me I was down to 3.5v/cell on my 6s battery. I ignored it and landed when I timer told me to because I knew from past experience what that meant. Sure enough, back at the bench, my battery indicated there was still 30% left. On my sailplane, that variometer bleeping away was SOOOOO annoying, I will never turn it on again.
At last count, I have 47 active aircraft. If you think I'm going to put telemetry on all of them, you have an entirely wrong picture how important this technology is to me. If you love it, good on you. Have at it. For the vast majority of RC pilots, that timer is still the best slice of bread. You may not "understand" why others prefer "guesswork". Well, that's just it, isn't it? You don't understand and others don't consider it "guesswork". I will not debate this point with you in any future threads. You can monologue it on your own.

[HangarQueen]

I didn't mean to strike a nerve, I just reacted to your remark about how "most people find it unnecessary", that's all. Because that's not my experience with people I know. To me, that was just dismissing the added value of telemetry altogether.
Furthermore, I wasn't aware that there are so many receivers out there that don't have telemetry capabilities, apparently.
And we do seem to agree that battery voltage monitoring isn't really useful to judge remaining battery capacity.
We'll just leave it there....peace out.

[Gilatrout]

Knowing how to use and configure telemetry is the challenge. There isn't any good guidance from Spectrum on this. For battery, what most people want is mAh used. Percentages based on voltages will vary under flight loads and require mental gymnastics to be meaningful with respect to the amount of fuel left in the battery.

SImilarly the callouts can be tuned to make them more meaningful. Reducing the frequency of the voice alert can be very helpful.

What I want to see from Spectrum is telemetry parser that will graph collected data over time.

[Evan D]

Interesting, have you talked to Andy about doing it?

[HangarQueen]

Have a look at what Jeti and Frsky have been doing on that matter, that might be an inspiration:


Frsky is still developing this graph feature, to allow zoom-in, zoom-out and navigating left to right. With Jeti, look for "data analyser", that is what they call it.
Personally, I don't use those graphs (I have this as a LUA script) a lot, mainly because such detailed graphics are hard to read in direct sunlight.
I program logical switches that are triggered at specific values, which in turn triggers voice callouts with the value of interest, or I assign a button on my stick to activate data callout.

[xviper]

For battery, what most people want is mAh used. Percentages based on voltages will vary under flight loads and require mental gymnastics to be meaningful with respect to the amount of fuel left in the battery.

I used to listen to the mah used on my Flex Innovations FV-31 Cypher. The first few times, I continued to go by the voltage and mostly by the time set on the TX. I consistently came down when the telemetry told me I've used up 5000mah of battery. Funny thing ....................... the battery I was using was only 4000mah. I've disabled the mah alerts now and even the voltage alerts, even though I still listen to it, I go by time mainly. When I hear it call out the voltage, I say to myself ................. "YOU LIAR!" and continue flying.
I won't debate this one either. It just leads to ruffled feathers. Besides, the gist of the topic in this thread was and is ........................ Spektrum smart batteries vs G2. The telemetry thing was a tangential take off of what else is needed to make that battery's features work and "value for the dollar".

[AirHead]

Wow! It's Me!....I have to agree that the "Spektrum Smart Campaign" is a slick approach to modern electronic metrics and operations supposedly "look after" your on-board feedback needs; but I have learned that the best way to fly is with a timer running regardless and to use "clairvoyance" to feel the timing of the battery. Works for me. Every time I land, the English woman's voice on my DX9 says..."Time Expired"...Even if there's a bit of battery juice left, at least I was close to the "conservative" point where I'm not relying on electronics. My Dentist is a pilot and he said that planes were once designed to be simple and reliable. He claimed that pilots were skeptical when they began to introduce EFI on airplane engines because of electronic control. Lots of computer controlled and monitored planes still crash...I'm surprised all you pro RC pilots haven't developed a feel for the time yet. Then again, I'm a drummer, so I'm a "timekeeper"...

[HangarQueen]

Yes, if you try to judge the added value of using telemetry by what Spektrum did, I would tend to agree that it isn't much, really. They are really extremely late to the party, started with the least interesting battery voltage monitoring, and they made it one of their vendor lock-in marketing schemes, where you need their batteries and chargers to make it work. You can't judge a feature by how one company implemented it.
The examples given above only prove what I'm trying to say
- "I followed the battery voltage and landed too early, ha! " Of course. Battery voltage sags significantly when drawing lots of current, so if you follow the low voltage warning and land, you will notice that the voltage is higher when the battery isn't under that sort of load anymore. Does that prove that telemetry is useless? Nope.
- The mAh reading wasn't accurate. Of course it isn't. The fuel gauge in cars and even state of the art airplanes isn't either. For my F22 model,I know that at the 2500mAh call I need to prepare for entering the circuit, leaving enough juice for at least 2 go-arounds. How do I know? I compare the telemetry value of consumption with my cell tester and my charger, and have my reference points. And another thing, some brands of sensor are way worse than the others. I have used a sensor that had an error of 30%. I ditched it, and bought a better one.
I know pilots too, having been one myself. And again, automated flight causing pilot complacency is one thing, sensor inaccuracy is another. Even with the older generation of planes, even analog instrumentation had errors. Good pilot training will teach you how to cope with it. In my younger days, instruments were being masked to simulate instrument failure, pilots were being blindfolded in the flight sims to train on finding switches and knobs without looking. Today, pilots are being taught procedures, inciting over-confidence in the automatic systems. Heck, they don't even learn basic aerobatics anymore (spin training!) in lots of pilot training schools. The systems are good, very good, but it takes training to use them properly.
The 737 MAX story proves that point. Boeing was hiding this new system from the world, just because it would lead to some extra pilot training (30 minutes or so). But as their whole marketing campaign was about "no training required for existing established 737 crews", they hid it from view. The result was that when the system actually did kick in, the pilots had no clue about what was happening. And the system was implemented very badly too (too little redundancy), which was the initial cause of the incidents.
I'm sorry if it looks like I'm bashing anyone here, that is honestly and completely not the intention. Actually, we do even agree on a lot of points here. And when I said that I was amazed about people using timers, that wasn't in any way meant as demeaning, but an honest observation. As a colleague once said about me "you have an inquisitive mind", meaning, I tend to question what I see, and I don't mean any harm with that.

[Evan D]

I think we all have an inquisitive mind and then we each decide if the new tech or whatever is worth our time to acquire, implement or learn.