Radio Upgrade

[Joe S.]

Hello everyone; I'm fairly new to the hobby as far as flying airplanes.  I purchased a E-flite Apprentice S15 for my first airplane. As you may know it comes with a Spektrum DX 5e radio. I'm looking at wanting to get other airplane models later on, and would like to get a new radio that I can bind models to. I've been looking at the Spektrum DX 6 as my upgrade. However I'm not sure if this would be to much radio for a beginner?  I would appreciate your input before putting down some hard earned cash.

[Konrad]

RE: Radio Upgrade

It is not enough radio!

When it comes to radios I like to see folks buy more than they think they need. This is because I still use my 20 year old radios and still have my 40+ year old radios. With modern radios having memory for 30 or more models it will take a while to fill up all those slots.

I strongly recommend 7 channels or more. This is because intermediate level gliders need often use 7 channels (crow mixing with motor).
Also get a radio with interchangeable RF modules.

Now here is a bit of controversy, it is the programing power that really separates the radios. Take a close look at the way the radios use their programing power for mixing. You can look this up on U-Tube.
I don't like the programing (mixing) based on the master/slave concept. Most Japanese radios are of this concept.
I like the object based programing first made popular in RC sets by Multiplex. You can get a similar program with the Fr-Sky Taranis Plus.
https://alofthobbies.com/radio-gear/frsky-transmitters.html

If you are committed to the DSM2/DSMX protocols you can add this module to the Fr-Sky. ( there will the loss of model match).
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__46634__OrangeRX_DSMX_DSM2_Compatible_2_4Ghz_Tran smitter_Module_JR_Turnigy_compatible_.html

So the short of it is get a 7+ channel, computer radio with modular RF deck.
The Taranis is hard to beat and at less than $250 dollars is a great value.

All the best,
Konrad

[OV10]

RE: Radio Upgrade

Hello Joe,
Welcome to the Squawk forum, a lot of good knowledgeable folks here that are really generous with helping others.  
My first 2.4 radio was the DX6i which I sold to a new member in the club just getting started when I upgraded to the DX8. I have added the DX9 to my arsenal because of the audibles it has and have never had and issue with any Tx or Rx. I have 25 warbirds in the 1/8 to 1/10 scale range and trust my Spektrums. The DX6 is basically a 6 channel version of the DX9 primarily because of the voice alerts which I wish that I had when I was first beginning. I doubt that you will ever run out of model memory availability with the DX6 and most 6 channels serve a lot of fliers for along time.
Now everyone has opinions and there are fans of Futaba, Hitec and Tactic but the bottom line is do your research on what is going to serve you well for the next couple years. If you belong to a club, what are the majority of them using so as to be able to provide help if needed. Reason I say that is because a couple guys in my club have Futaba and have asked for some assistance and I was basically of no help due to being unfamiliar with them and didn't want/need to read their manual. Felt sort of bad that they came to the VP for assistance and I couldn't except to point them to another member.
Good luck on your choice and as I tell every new flier I engage, enjoy the thrill of the modeling youngster that is emerging from you again.
Best regards,  

[Joe S.]

RE: Radio Upgrade

I would like to thank Konrad and Warbird Charlie for their response to my post. All very good points and things to consider. I ill be doing more homework on this subject. I hate spending money on things twice. Thank you again!

[Dewey H Lee]

RE: Radio Upgrade

Hello Joe.
Konrad and Warbird Charlie are right on with the information they gave you. I just got back to flying and bought the dx6. After buying more models I found that while the dx6 handled a lot of applications. The only thing is I hadn't figured on wanting to add a gyro to a plane that had retracts and flaps. In order to be able to use all the functions of the gyro I would have to sacrifice my flaps for the needed channel for the gyro. So don't do what I did and buy before you really investigate options that you might want later. If I had it to do over I would have started with the dx8. Instead after needing more channels I bought the tactics 8 channel because on financial restrictions. Have fun flying. Hope I helped a little. These other gentlemen are the real experts with the most experience.

[Joe S.]

RE: Radio Upgrade

Hello Dewey,

Thank your for your input. These are things I have not thought about. The only RC sport I have done is off road trucks and buggies in 1/10th. and 1/8th scale. I have always had an interest in airplanes and have finally taken the plunge into it. I still have many, many thing to learn. Thank you for your help.

Joe

[Konrad]

RE: Radio Upgrade

Joe,
I'd like to thank you for acknowledging the efforts of those that have responded.

It is something that most folks fail to do. It takes time (well me a lot of time) to post a quality reply to a legitimate question. Again thank you for recognizing the effort.

I also like to see folks come back and close the loop when asking for help trouble shooting issues. Tell us what worked or didn't work. This will help the next guy as it helps us learn what to ask of the next guy that might have similar problems. Remote trouble shooting is a skill that takes time to develop.

All the best,
Konrad

[yorkiepap]

RE: Radio Upgrade

Hey Joe,
While doing some homework, you may find some interesting aspects many don't consider such as output power. I retreaded back into RC in '90 after a 20yr hiatus & used my JR PCM9 Tx's until the time came to upgrade to a computer radio that really expanded my flight parameters. After much homework & some real in-depth conversations with fellow club members, I ended up with a JR10X 10ch touchscreen Tx that had all the needed flight attribute programming I would ever need for my flying style. I use both my 10X's on 72Mhz(SelScan Module) & Spektrum 2.4Ghz(DM-9 Module) with no issues. The one thing many don't realize is that the older radios, such as my 10X, has an RF output of 200mw that many of the newer imported radios don't have since they are only 100mw. The other aspects to consider are the build quality, the feel in your hands, & ease of use. Unless you are a pilot that needs exotic flight parameters, you don't need the "computer geek" "Open Tx" programming such as the Taranus & others have that can be quite difficult to grasp. You are being smart doing your homework. Good luck...

Denny

[Konrad]

RE: Radio Upgrade

"Computer Geek" nobody would ever accuse me of being one of those. What object based programing is about is flexibility in setting up a radio/model. Basically you get to define what inputs you want to go into a mixer, how to mixes those inputs and what the mixer output is. I find this much easier than trying to keep track of who or what is the master and slave and staying within the rigid confines of some other's idea of what I need to accomplish.

What are the benefit of over powering the RF output? Using more power than need causes interference with others and kills battery life. True 200mw is not going to be much of an issue with long range interference. Even less so with the line of sight 2.4ghz band. Per the FCC any station transmitting 1 watt or more of power must transmit an identifier. This is why the radio TX are kept under 1 watt RF.

Now talking about old radio's (72mhz pre 20 hz spacing) the imports tended to over drive the modulation by about 15% causing all sorts of side band splatter. That is why I liked the EK logic, Ace and Kraft radios. They had a cleaner output and used the battery power more efficiently.

Build quality is a good point along with ergonomic. As all the radio OEMs use pretty much the same electrical components one is left looking at how thick are the PC boards and copper traces are. How well are the pot wires to the gimbals supported etc. On build quality, are the gimbals smooth, do the pins in the RF module compartment line up with the RF housing, are the switches user replaceable etc.

Ergonomics this is a big one as how the TX feels in your hand will define how the whole flight experience will be. As I have small hands I don't like the neck strap (Asian chrome porcupine) style of TX (they are too thick!). I much prefer the thinner tray style radios, even if holding in one's hand. I loved the Multiplex Evo for being so thin for a neck strap radio.

Balance on the strap is also a concern as many TX cases have not been redesigned for proper balance with the shorter antenna of the 2.4 ghz band nor has the weight of the new LIxx batteries been adequately adjusted for. You can get neck strap balancers for just about all hand held radios to address these issues.

I have both a Spektrum DX9 and Taranis Plus in front of me now. Both have the gimbals placed 10.5 cm apart both have adjustable height sticks. Both have voice commands (I hate the bitching Betty, I don't need the distraction while flying).

The DX9 has silicone hand grips on the back. I like these but suspect they will harden when exposed to the sun and oil (skin and engine oils). It has two sliders on the back (a new configuration for me). I like the 'R' knob on top. I don't like the roller for scrolling through the menu. I love that the Dx9 has Lipo batteries as a native feature.

The Taranis plus does not have the silicone pads. I love that the sliders are on the side (only because I'm use to them being there from my older JR radios). I love the flexibility of using modular RF decks (The DX9 is sorely lacking this feature). I don't like that the batteries are old school NIMH. For half the price the Taranis Plus is 10 time the radio that the DX9 is. I know I have and use both.

Don't confuse price with quality. I recall all the nay sayers when Futaba and Jr first came on the scene. Many folks said they weren't as good as the Kraft radios at the time. In some respects that was true, but not where it counted.

I too strongly encourage anyone looking at a new radio to find some of the better fliers at the field, hopefully they aren't sponsored pilots, and ask them what they are flying and why. The last point is the important one.

All the best,
Konrad

[OV10]

RE: Radio Upgrade

Hello Konrad,
Awhile ago on another thread here on the Squawk you had made mention of Lemon receivers.
I had asked of you some insight as to your experience regarding them in post #9.
http://www.hobbysquawk.com/Thread-Dynam-Planes--1936?pid=14561#pid14561
You defered to answer directly because of it being a non-vendor product and referenced another site to answering on (which I could never access).
Anyways, am wondering if you have changed your mind because I saw where you were welcoming Shirty to the forum in post #26 of this thread
http://www.hobbysquawk.com/Thread-ALL-FMS-1450mm-P-51-s-V8-others?page=2
and said "Welcome to Hobby Squawk."........."They respect our opinions and encourage honest discourse of products, theirs and others."
I thought it peculiar at the time that you wouldn't answer because I always felt exactly what you espoused to Shirty about the openness here on the Squawk.
So the short of it, would you mind sharing with me and others what your experience is with these Lemon receivers??
Best regards,

[Konrad]

RE: Radio Upgrade

Yes, I recall my reluctance to discuss products that were not offered for sale at MotionRC and might be in direct competition with what they do sell.

Alpha has since come back with clarification as to how he (MotionRC) would like these forums to be used. While he doesn't want Hobby Squawk to be, a be all to everyone sort of forum (non of the LTUP stuff here just to up the Google hits). He does want it to be a forum to discuss all things aviation even competitors products in a fair and honest light.

I think I gave my opinion (it is worth what you paid for it) about the Lemon and Orange aftermarket DSM2/DSMX protocol RX. It was just antidotal as I don't have the spec's, drawing or sketches of the products. I'll see if I can find the post.

Found it; reply #18
http://www.hobbysquawk.com/Thread-New-to-EDFs?page=2
If you want more or you have a specific question it might be best for another thread.

All the best,
Konrad

[OV10]

RE: Radio Upgrade

Konrad,
If you could answer my original question about Lemon Rx in a separate thread that would be great.
So that you don't have to revisit that old thread to figure out what I originally was concerned about, this is the gist of it;
AR9020 at $150 versus the Lemon 10 channel at $25 to control my LX B-25.
Would I be stepping into a mine field with the Lemon??performance,reliability, quality??
Thanx,

[Konrad]

RE: Radio Upgrade

It pains to say this but from a technical perspective there is little correlation with the robustness of an RF link with the cost of the RX.

I will say that I just recently canceled my orders for the Spektrum 9350 as I just didn't see the value. I place the pre-order about 2 years ago because I liked the then new idea of diversity antenna verses the older method of using satellite RXs.
https://www.spektrumrc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=SPMAR9350

Now I fully expect the new user interface to be miles ahead of the flashing lights we had with the other older AS3X RX's. But for $170 I just don't see the value.

Since then Lemon has brought to market their diversity antenna RX. The 10 channel you mention.

As for performance,reliability, quality by any measure you choose to use the Lemon and Orange RX's are as good or better than the Spektrum brand. I need to be clear that I've suffered through a lot of Spektrum RF failure during the early day of 2.4 ghz entering the RC market. To Horizon Hobbies credit they honored all my warranty claims.

I've had no Lemon RF failures in any of my set ups. I've had a few Orange issue with binding and dropping of frames but these happened on the test bench. I've yet to loose a model as a result of a failed Orange RX.

I'm so confident in the RF link with the Lemon that I'm using one in my 3.7 meter FVK Graphite ($1200 model). I'm sorry I don't know what a LX B-25 is. If it has a lot of carbon in the structure there are some precautions that need to be taken when working with 2.4Ghz RF RX.

I have close to a dozen model in flying shape with Lemon RXs in them from the light Guillow rubber band conversions to that 3.7 meter glider.
I've crashed this little 24" Champ as a result of the Spektrum RX, twice. Changing to a Lemon RX and the RF link has been solid.
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=16387.0
On the other side of the coin I've had nothing but a solid RF link with this Spektrum brick in this 17.5" P6-E Hawk.
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=11737.0

I should also say that I have a dozen flyable models with a mix of Spektrum RX using DSM2 and DSMX protocols.

I only have one model with an Orange RX. This isn't aimed as a comment against Orange, it just is what it is.

Now I will say that the last dozen RX I've purchased have been for the Fr Sky protocols. All my JR radios are now converted to Fr-Sky protocols

All the best,
Konrad

[OV10]

RE: Radio Upgrade

Hello Konrad,
Thanx for your time and explanation. The fact that you are confident enough in a Lemon to stuff one in a $1200 bird gives me a stronger conviction about using them in my future fleet expansion. Am surprised that your not aware of what the LX B-25 is. LX is short for Shenzhen Lanxiang Model Aircraft who are renowned for their large scale foamies. The B-25 has a 2000mm(78-3/4 inch) wingspan and goes for $600+. As you have probably noticed that my fleet is rather large and the expense of all those AR610 and AR8000 has been pretty expensive. I've got 5 new models to maiden this spring and if I can minimize some of the pain on Rx costs is the reason behind what prompted my inquiry in the first place. Am going to give the Lemons a try by using them in some of my lesser expensive birds and move the Spektrums over to the newer more pricy airframes. The B-25 is my only one requiring a 10 channel Rx but am just going to bite the bullet and try the $25 Lemon over the $150 Spektrum. Having been a microwave RF engineer back in the days when it was considered "black magic" on a program called Wild Weasel, I know enough about the 2.4 tech that this industry pricing is puzzling the crap out of me. To me the Lemons are where it should be pricing wise.
Again, thanx a lot for your perspective.

[Konrad]

RE: Radio Upgrade

Glad to learn you are an RF Engineer. So I'm sure you too prefer the idea of diversity antennas verses satellite RX to address RF blocking issues. While I carry a few FCC licenses I'm not a "Sparky", well not at the design level. I'll admit that antenna radiation patterns were a black art in my mind.

As an engineer it boggles my mind at how vast the price spread is between unit cost to manufacture and the street sale price. These model RX cost less than $10 a piece to make. True there are other costs like, design, brand creation, sales, and warranty.

You sound a lot like me, I have 2 dozen flyable ship and about twice as many close to 2 hours away from being flyable. Then there is the attic full of toy boxes. My knowledge of todays foam models is pretty well limited to what MotionRC sells. Yes, I have always had a foamy in my fleet. My avatar is an old Robbe BAC 146 on 20 round cells also close to 2 meters.

I believe that a powered glider is the most severe environment for our receivers, distance and and that RF generator in the front! To that end I have a few radio test beds that I use for any RX before I put the RX in a valued model. Right now my test bed is an old Multiplex Sky Cat. This is an early EPO foam model from the days of brushed motors and round cells. I highly recommend that before anybody flies a new valued model with any electrical equipment that they perform a short burn in on the bench and give the Rx a test flight on a beater ship. Most of my electrical components fail within the first 5 minutes or hundreds of hours later, you know that bath tub curve.

All the best,
Konrad

[Joe S.]

RE: Radio Upgrade

Joe,
I'd like to thank you for acknowledging the efforts of those that have responded.

It is something that most folks fail to do. It takes time (well me a lot of time) to post a quality reply to a legitimate question. Again thank you for recognizing the effort.

I also like to see folks come back and close the loop when asking for help trouble shooting issues. Tell us what worked or didn't work. This will help the next guy as it helps us learn what to ask of the next guy that might have similar problems. Remote trouble shooting is a skill that takes time to develop.  

All the best,
Konrad

I totally appreciate all you guys and the time you devote to the forum. I am doing a lot of reading and learning that for sure.