FMS reflex gyro

[slumi]

Hi folks,

do you have any experience with the FMS reflex gyro?
Is it a reliable stabilizer system?

I am most interested in the “Optimized” mode.

[xviper]

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fms+reflex+gyro+review

At this time, it can only be programmed for specific FMS planes that are on the Reflex "list".

[slumi]

Hi Xviper,

I saw the manual and watched Rich Baker’s short review.
In fact the manual is only one page and Banggood.com sells the reflex gyro for $14.60.
Therefor I am sceptical, if it’s any good. I am sure that Rich Baker flies in “gyro off” mode.

Do you have any experience with the “Optimized” mode ?

[xviper]

Sorry, but the Reflex gyro is still fairly new to those in N. America. I have looked at the Reflex very closely and it seems to me that it's a very simple gyro, not unlike the HobbyEagle unit, Freewing gyro or Lemon units all of which work very well. Now that FMS has a V2 of the Reflex, you must still read the part that tell you which planes it is applicable to. It's NOT directly useable to any other plane. Since you are in Europe, any plane you buy from FMS that has the Reflex unit installed, will already be programmed and I believe that it will work as advertised. You must realize that if you buy a "blank" Reflex from Banggood or RC Castle or anyone else, you must still go to the FMS site and download the program for a specific plane. If you use it in any other plane, keep in mind that the Reflex programming will do things like wing type mixing, any servo reversing that may be necessary for a given plane, gains that are tuned for a given plane, etc. Putting it in a non-listed plane may create problems with respect to wing type, servo reversing and improper gain.
Optimized mode would appear to be like Spektrum's SAFE or Spektrum compatible devices that have "recovery". In this regard, I'm very fond of SAFE, while "recovery" mode in those other devices can be inconsistent and sometimes unreliable. However, I believe the Optimized mode with the Reflex will work very well since it's been programmed for a given plane. Personally, I likely won't buy the Reflex. (Might try one in the soon to arrive Rafale just for kicks. I favor the HobbyEagle for a similar price or the Lemon stabilized RX with recovery.

[slumi]

Hi Xviper,

I always used the Eagletree Guardian. This one was in comparison to others a 100% reliable on recovery (auto level).
This helps a lot, if you loose orientation or you flew into the sun.
Eagletree systems went bankrupt this summer and therefor I look for a replacement. I am already impressed by Spektrum’s AR637T AS3X-SAFE receiver.
Now FMS puts into new planes the Reflex gyro, which is considerable cheaper.

I also flew with Lemon’s Stabilizer Plus and had sometimes failure on recovery (auto level).

[xviper]

I did not know that Eagletree went bankrupt, yet I am not shocked by this. I think they overpriced themselves for their devices. When you play in a marketplace where "cheap" competitors can do what most end user want and need, your high priced product is more susceptible to extinction.
I'm also about to "play" with an AR637T but here again, it's a lot of money compared to all the 20 buck HobbyEagles I've got in many, many of my planes. Bells and whistles are nice, IF you really need them and want to pay for them, but when all you want and need is a basic unit, it's ludicrous to have to pay for more.

[slumi]

HobbyEagle I don’t know. How good are they in 3D mode and recovery ?

I loved Eagletree Guardian, because they had a perfect 3D mode and a 100% reliable recovery.

Even Spektrum’s SAFE failed for me once.

The best of Eagletree Guardian was it’s super speed to recover in a milli second.

[xviper]

HobbyEagle I don’t know. How good are they in 3D mode and recovery ?

I've had no luck with those but I don't fly 3D and I don't really need recovery (or SAFE) anymore.

[dahawk]

Bought one from RC-Castle specifically for the FMS Rafale. I don't think HH will include in the Rafale. Watched Rich Baker's unboxing and build video. He has his setup for Spektrum. In looking at the Reflex, it comes setup for Futaba where throttle is on Chan 3. The cables coming out of the Reflex to the RX are list as CH1, Ch2, CH3,CH4 and SBUS PPM. The ports going into the Reflex from the mixing board are listed as Ail. Ele, Throttle, Rud. Apparently , there's a baked-in mix that uses throttle.

My question is about Spektrum setup. I have a DX9. Does the Chan 3 wire on the Reflex plug in to Chan 1 on the DSMx RX?

[xviper]

Bought one from RC-Castle specifically for the FMS Rafale. I don't think HH will include in the Rafale. Watched Rich Baker's unboxing and build video. He has his setup for Spektrum. In looking at the Reflex, it comes setup for Futaba where throttle is on Chan 3. The cables coming out of the Refle to the RX are list as CH1, Ch2, CH3,CH4 and SBUS PPM. The ports going into the Reflex from the mixing board are listed as Ail. Ele, Throttle, Rud. Apparently , there's a baked-in mix that uses throttle.

My question is about Spektrum setup. I have a DX9. Does the Chan 3 wire on the Reflex plug in to Chan 1 on the DSMx RX?

I wouldn't concern myself with how FMS has the channels labeled. It shouldn't matter. If FMS calls channel 3 the throttle, so be it. You know which port is for throttle on your Spektrum RX. You plug it into there. Throttle is throttle no matter what you label it as. They can call it "green" and Spektrum could call it "red". Throttle still goes into throttle. So yes, FMS's throttle lead (channel 3) goes into the throttle port of the Spektrum RX (channel 1). If you plug FMS's channel 3 into Spektrum's channel 3, then you are plugging throttle into ELE. It's not that difficult to see that this would NOT make sense. Don't get too concerned about what things are labeled as. What matters is what they really are.

[slumi]

The question still open is , what does the throttle channel do in the reflex gyro ?

Other gyros only stabilize aileron, elevator and rudder.

[dahawk]

Thanks xvipe, you're correct. I'm not gonna sweat the small stuff. As far as what the throttle does with the Reflex? Dunno. In fact, Rich didn't know either. I would run the throttle directly from the esc to the RX but he mentioned there was some kind of mix.

[slumi]

I don’t think, that you can bypass the throttle channel directly to the receiver. The reflex gyro reads and uses this channel.
The reflex gyro manual is very short and in fact only one page (which shows the limited value of this gyro).

I think for a beginner plane this stabilizer will work well.
But what about the new FMS Rafale 80mm jet ?!?
Can I use auto level mode at full throttle ?!?

[xviper]

If I had to make a "guess", I would say that the gyro uses the throttle in circumstances where control surface compensation was inadequate due to less than ideal airspeed for the control surface to act properly. In such cases, I suspect the throttle gets increased so as to increase airspeed and hence, make a given control surface more effective (ie, bring that control surface further away from getting stalled).

[slumi]

I hope that Rich Baker will bring pretty soon a flight video of the FMS Rafale 80 mm jet and tests and explains this reflex gyro for all possible situations.

[mshagg]

The throttle channel is most likely for wiring simplification as FMS planes have their own version of a blue box. Reflex accepts SBUS and so in that configuration it is reading throttle from the SBUS data and outputting the throttle signal to the control board/ESC.

A gyro that intervened on throttle input would be a unique offering in the market and, without thinking about it too much, probably a bad idea.

I ended up pulling the reflex that came in the FMS A10 and running my own stabilised Rx. Reflex gyro mode made the plane feel kind of dull and mushy, my suspicion is that it has an unsophisticated approach to (in AS3X parlance) stick priority. i.e. the gyro is active at full stick deflection, whereas most of the competition dials down gyro gains the further the stick deflection is. The angle mode (safe) worked well and could have use as a panic button for guys who like that setup.

It's an impressively inexpensive system and a nice feature on a PNP plane out of the box. But if you're looking at it as an aftermarket product a bit more money gets you into the hobbyeagle stuff, which is significantly more tunable.

I have the A10 reflex kicking around somewhere so could run some bench tests if anyone wants to test a theory about what it's doing with the throttle channel.

[slumi]

Hi mshagg,

so your assumption is that the reflex gyro is more for beginner planes.
That’s exactly why I put here this topic. It seems to me that we have here a beginner gyro in an 80 mm powerful jet.

If I understand you right , you see the HobbyEagle gyro as more advanced and more suitable for this jet.
Which version of HobbyEagle gyro do you use ?

[mshagg]

I dont know if I'd say it was for beginner planes, just that it's a very simple system. I assume the guys buying and flying the rafaele are probably a little more discerning when it comes to setting up their gyro (personal preference/feel), or not using one. I just didnt like the way it was tuned in the A10, and there's no way to adjust anything, so ended up flying with the gyro turned off.

My go-to gyro is the Frksy S8R rx. In the hobbyeagle range I like the A3 Pro. Has pretty much all the adjustments you need, accepts SBUS input (so with an X8R receiver you have 11 channels to play with) dont need a PC to adjust it at the field, and pretty reasonable price.

[xviper]

I see the Freewing "blue box" as a "circuit collector" and circuit distribution device. It also does things like voltage regulation (and sequencing) for lights and it has the ability to sequence gear doors and retracts. The FMS Reflex device does all of this PLUS, it is a gyro. "More advanced"? Maybe only very slightly. It's "different". We have the very basic $22.00 Freewing gyro (simple ON/OFF, manual gain), the $14.00 Reflex, the $22.00 HobbyEagle (base A3L). I wouldn't even put the $22.00 Freewing blue box (MCB-E) in this list as it's not a gyro. The Reflex trumps the FW gyro for it's added functionality, but I wouldn't say it's not as good as the HobbyEagle. They do different things - one is a better gyro/control box, the other is just a better gyro.

I have the A10 reflex kicking around somewhere so could run some bench tests if anyone wants to test a theory about what it's doing with the throttle channel.

If you have the know-how and the ability to do it, that would be quite interesting.

[mshagg]

Yeah sorry I could have been clearer, they have their own circuit collector thingy in addition to the reflex system. Tucked away in completely inaccessible parts of the plane in the two I've used (A10 V2 and 70mm Avanti V3). Similar in function to an mcbe, allowing them to use single connectors for the wing wiring and running the light show (I'd guess the Rafael might have some mixing handled by a circuit board, although I'm not really interested in it so haven't watched any content focused on it).

So the planes come pre-wired with the reflex and the circuit collector - the owner just needs to plug their Rx into the reflex, including the throttle (if you're not using SBUS).

Incidentally the reflex that came in the Avanti was faulty out of the box causing a twitching rudder servo. Not confidence inspiring lol.