Colour conundrum

[Dp123]

fellow forumites,

I am trying to repaint one of my Freewing models in the low contrast NATO colours of grey, grey, and grey.
according to all the paint reference charts that I can find, the correct shades are:
FS36118 Gunship Grey
FS36270 Medium Sea Grey
FS36375 Light Ghost Grey

So, I got some Tamiya paints of the equivalent shades: XF24, XF66, and XF20 to try out.
however, when I sprayed these colours onto a test piece, they all came out a lot darker than I expected.
From this, I concluded that these are not the right colour codes.
Can anyone tell me what codes I should be using instead?

thanks,
dp

[Alpha]

Hi Dp123,
This is a great topic!

To begin, I'd say that "the correct shades are" is a misnomer from the start. FS codes sprayed on a full size airplane versus a model more often than not are noticeably different in either hue, tone, or both. I know because I have held "correct" FS code paint swatches up against the surface of actual aircraft, and sometimes laughed at the differences.

Color accuracy is a hotly debated question among modelers, especially among static plastic/resin scale modelers, and also RC modeling. The short answer is that no single paint company produces a single color code that every modeler will agree is "accurate" in every scale from 1:400 to 1:1. Tamiya, Mig, Testors, Vallejo, Mr.Hobby, Gunze, etc... none agree with each other consistently, even when they're citing the identical FS code. I imagine that the larger paint companies use colorimeters or spectrophotometers to rule out human-error deriving from deuteranopia or similar, but even those results can vary based on the source material being tested, especially the availability of original painted surfaces. The debate rages over Luftwaffe RLM colors, for example, due to the lack of consistent color samples and references from the time period. Accordingly, differences in what is "correct" persist and likely always will.

The primary reasons for these variations are twofold: First, real paint fades and surface finishes deteriorate, so modelers will often take into account percentages of fading (especially on warbirds like a Corsair or other heavily used aircraft like an F-14 Tomcat) to depict an aircraft in service and not factory fresh. Second, and probably most influential in my opinion, is the phenomenon loosely grouped under the term "Scale Effect", which essentially posits that the human eye perceives color and light differently depending on the size of the object being observed. For example, "Insignia White" painted against a "Gloss Black" surface on a tiny 1:400 scale airplane versus a large 1:4 model looks drastically different. Depending on the model's scale, the more stark the contrasts become, which is why modelers often mix in white to lighten/soften those contrasts depending on the relative scale. Your Tamiya colors probably appear darker because they're on a much larger surface than they would be on, say, a Tamiya 1/48 scale model (not even mentioning the influence of opacity). Plastic modelers regularly make adjustments, even in those PlaMo scales, so it's wise to expect to do the same in RC scales. If we want to get really [unnecessarily] technical, we can include atmospheric effects and eye-to-object distance, or we could also talk about sheen, which is another facet of paint finishes that doesn't translate well to models in many cases. If the Freewing Mirage was the same sheen factor as the real Mirage, it would look like an overdone shiny toy. But I digress.

In my opinion, all of this above is secondary to what the modeler perceives as accurate for his/her model. Start with a good color reference, and go from there until you're happy with it. If the color turns out to be a little lighter than the color chart, tell yourself that the aircraft was faded in the sun, or better yet, shade in other colors with an airbrush to mute the transitions between colors and add more depth to the model. Looking at references of real aircraft, even in low contrast NATO schemes as you're targeting, it's easy to spot the many variations in tone, hue, etc depending on lighting conditions, whether you're looking at a picture or computer screen or the actual aircraft in front of you, etc. Assuming you don't have the real aircraft in front of you, the closest you'll probably be able to achieve is to obtain a color swatch and go from there. Or at the very least, color correct an sRGB monitor and verify the photos you're viewing online weren't post processed. Which, as I'm typing this, sounds like a lot of work for a model airplane, and I imagine most RC modelers would agree.

As an aside if any reader is curious, almost all of our projects with Freewing have their paints adjusted for scale effect, after being based on reliable references. Often I'll use references from real aircraft gathered from our customer base, museums, or other verified sources. I try to avoid basing colors off of computer screens, or off of model paint companies' labels, expressly because our models are often in the 1/12 to 1/7 range, which is significantly larger than plastic modelers' 1/72-1/48 scale for which those model paint companies generally adjust their colors. Sometimes, though, we'll try to use readily available paints from hobby stores to make it a little easier for customers to color match instead of going to Home Depot. I do not in instances where the model's original references aren't readily available, such as with the Freewing Lippisch P.15. Ultimately, I think most of our customer base trusts our color accuracy, not just because they don't have the access we do to real aircraft as a frame of reference to counter our color choices, but also because, well, it's a hobby and none of our foam planes are up for Scale Masters competition. Even if they were, which judge could definitively say something is "the correct shade" unless the model is sitting on the wing of the real thing?

My point is, have fun, it's a model airplane. Please post your results! I'm sure we'll enjoy it if you do!

[Elbee]

Alpha, It is a great topic and so many Hobby Squawkers doing repaints it is timely, as well. What would you think if we started to share which color numbers and codes from the major mfr's of the hobby paints and HD Behr UFC codes as pics? Develop an FS colour guide as it were. Is there a way we could do this by posting to a 'single page' in the forum and then simply reference just that page? Just a thought. Best, LB

[Alpha]

Hey Elbee, it's a good idea, but I'm unsure of how best to organize that kind of information. The simplest way would be to document it in the first post of each "Official" thread. The Official product threads are managed by Motion RC staff and Moderators, so it would be easy to put the Behr paint code, for example, as an update to the first post, whenever someone posts that information in the body of the thread itself. We've done similar things with CG, updating the first post to consolidate the important information for customers to check by reading the first post instead of having to browse the entire thread.

[Elbee]

Alpha, So if I have a Behr paint code for the 2 Seafire colours, I should post those in the Official Spitfire Thread? If so, how would I post that to the first page? Ignorance is bliss for me. Best, LB

[Alpha]

Post it in the thread (whatever post number it's on now), then send a PM to James.MotionRC to copy/paste your post to Post #1. Only the thread's author or a moderator can edit Post #1.

[Dp123]

Alpha,

I think everything you said is absolutely correct. Especially the way coulour perception can change with the scale effect, and whether transitted or reflective - the difference between a photograph of paint seen on a monitor, and seeing it in real life.
And this is the point for me. I'm not trying to produce a super scale rendition of an aircraft, but rather just to make something that ' looks about right', which I assume most of us want.
To me, that means two things: first, do the colours on the model look similar to the photographs, and secondly if I park my Grey painted model next to say, a Grey Freewing f15 or an FMS F14, will the colours look similar enough to not be obviously different to the untrained observer. That is all I am trying to achieve.
The reason for my first post was because the colours I first used came out so much darker than the photographs I have of the subject that they were clearly very radically different. I mean, many shades darker. Even allowing for the different effects you described, it still seemed to my eyes that the colours were just 'wrong', and made me doubt the accuracy of my reference charts.
So, taking on board all you have said, I returned to the hobby shop, and came home armed with every shade of Grey that I could find, and a large pot of white. Now I can experiment with different mixes, to try and find one which to my eyes is the closest match. Already I can see that not all Greys are just black and white. Many of them have shades of Blue and / or Green to them that only become apparent when placed side by side. So this could be an interesting project.
As others have since commented, however, this task would be easier if I had an idea of the Freewing factory colours that I could use as a starting point. Hint, hint......

I will let you know how I get on when I find the colours that look 'right'

Thanks,
David.

[Dp123]

So, after many hours messing with different shades of Grey, I finally found the shades I am happy with. I now how so many tester pots of paint, I could probably paint a battleship!
A few evenings with the airbrush and spray gun later, and the colours looked ‘just right’ to me. Then a few more evenings applying the weathering, using powdered artists pastel paint sticks and a damp cloth, and it finally looked just how I wanted it.

The next stage was to apply the clear coat to seal the surface, and that’s when it all went wrong.....

The clear coat caused all the Grays to go one shade Blue -er, and the weathering to go about 4 shades darker.

To my eyes, it now looks overdone, and more like a toy. Hopefully it will look better when the decals are applied (once Callie has done her magic), and when it’s flying no-one will see it any way.

However, it has been a real good learning experience, and the next model can only be better.

Thanks again to everybody who has posted all the painting hints and tips that have helped me get this far

regards,
Dave

[Elbee]

So, after many hours messing with different shades of Grey, The clear coat caused all the Grays to go one shade Blue -er, and the weathering to go about 4 shades darker. regards, Dave

Dave, Your efforts look great. Q: After you apply your graphics by Callie, are you applying another clear coat? If so, will that be 'gloss or matte'? I ask because I have applied gloss and the colors change somewhat and with matte, it seems to pull everything back together. Perhaps due to refraction/reflection or some such nonsense. Just tossing in my $0.02USD.:Cool:Best, LB

[Dp123]

LB,

thanks.

A very good point, and yes, I am planning for a final matte clear coat, so hopefully it will bring the colour back a bit.

regards,
Dave

[Hardway]

LB,

thanks.

A very good point, and yes, I am planning for a final matte clear coat, so hopefully it will bring the colour back a bit.

regards,
Dave

Great job!!!! Glad you are on board here!!!! Jerry

[Beetlemankurt]

Hi Dave, you have done a great job with your repaint, it looks fantastic! Its an interesting experience trying to find what you think are correct colours for sure, I personally get a little OCD until I find what I think will look just right......so don’t worry, you’re in good company!

Ive recently finished a repaint too and found that the final matte clear coat over the decals really helped to tie things in as others have suggested. The decals helped to break up the paintwork a bit and directed the eye more toward the total effect of the plane as a whole, rather than just looking at the paint job in itself (Hope that makes sense). Sometimes even spraying a light dusting of the appropriate base colour over the decals as well can make them look not so new and helps to blend everything together even more.

Again, top job, you should be proud of it, I would be! keep the pics coming!

[wvrailfan]

As a 50 year model railroader, I can say bringing up "correct" colors is a good way to start an argument among a group of model railroaders;-)

What I have learned is that if you paint a model, pretty much regardless of scale, with actual paint intended for the prototype, it will appear way too dark. The reason is, we don't look at the prototype from 6 inches, or a foot. We look at it from several feet, maybe even a hundred or more. When looking at something through that much atmosphere it appears lighter than it actually is. So many model railroaders will slightly lighten paint before painting a model so that when viewed up close, it will look like the prototype viewed from a similar "scale" distance.

The other thing is, and Alpha nailed it, color is a moving target regardless of if it is on a 1:1 prototype or a scale model. Paint will vary from batch to batch even from the same manufacturer. Add to that fade, which may vary greatly depending on how the sun and weather hits a surface. A brand new locomotive, or aircraft keeping on topic, will look slightly different than one just a month old and in service.

So to make my modeling hobby more fun and less stressful, I long ago swore off trying to get a perfect paint match for train, plane and automobile models. If it looks right to me, then, it's right. If anyone asks, I just say, "yup, that's the color it's suppose to be." Everybody's happy.

[Beetlemankurt]

Yep, you nailed it in the last paragraph I reckon WVrailfan! That’s a really good way to look at it. Besides, achieving ‘realism’ to me is a combination of many different subtle factors all coming together and is way more that just colour alone. It’s just one part of the puzzle.

Funnily enough, I was just thinking the other day how I used to paint models when I was a kid and how mortified I would be now to see just how badly I did it back then :) Sometimes I think we need to remind ourselves just how far we’ve come and forgive ourselves for a few perceived scale inconsistencies from time to time as we are all learning every day and each model we complete :).

Dave, keep at it mate, I think your model looks great. I for one am looking forward to seeing the photos of it finished. Keep up the good work.

Beetleman

[Dp123]

Thanks for the words of encouragement guys, and from the discussion it is clear I am not on my own when it comes to trying to decide what colour is right.
It is always subjective, and there is no perfect colour, so I will just go for the ‘looks about right’ effect in future

While I wait for Callie’s Magic Graphics to arrive, I have softened up the weathering a little, as it seemed too high contrast against the background for my taste.
So I went over all the lines with the airbrush again, and just dusted on a coat of thinned down colour. This toned it down enough for me to be happy with it.
Then I gave it another dusting with Matt clear coat. The original appears to have a gloss finish, but again, the scale effect makes it look much too shiny, so dusting it with Matt just softened the finish a little. I might give it one more dusting when the graphics have Been applied, but for now I am happy with the result.
I have included a pic of the original and one of the model, and to me the colours look ‘about right’, which is just what I was after. What does everybody think?

Now, while I wait for the graphics, what can I do next? Somebody mentioned that the new F22 flies like the Flexjet. I have a Flexjet, and I have a lot of Grey paints.....

regards,
Dave

[Elbee]

DP, Callie's graphics will be mostly glossy. Another coat of the Matte will be just the ticket. Looking great thus far. Best, LB

[Beetlemankurt]

Looking real sharp Dave! Agree with Elbee above re: the decals. I like where you’ve ended up with the weathering.

[Hardway]

:Cool::Cool::Cool::Cool: Nice!!!!

[Dp123]

I think it’s nearly done. Another big thank you to Callie’s Magic Graphics.

[Elbee]

DP, Bravo Zulu. Best, LB