Manuals Rant! :)

[seaviper]

In particular, the Freewing manuals.

How about a section in the manual on FLYING the machine. It should be written by someone who has actually flown the pants off that particular model.
It could cover upgrades, different batteries, CG issues, maintenance issues, etc.

[doctormike]

I wish they could find an english speaking American who speaks Chinese well and knows RC completely to translate and write the manuals. They seem to vary from totally worthless to ok. Don't even get me started on the incorrect C.G.'s. I have had so many scary, or worse, maidens because of incorrect C.G.'s. from the manual. Most E-Fite manuals are pretty good. I wish the others would follow suit. Doc

[xviper]

Devil's advocate .................................................. ..

As nice as that would be, I'd like to know who's going to pay for this "feature". If it's the manufacturer, they're going to add that "overhead" to the price of the product. You'll have a guy or a team of guys who will fly every plane and at some point, that information must be added to the manual. If they do it early enough in the plane's life so as to make it into the manual before printing, they likely can't get a "production" version. If they wait too long, they'd have to re-write and reprint the manuals. More cost. These things are getting expensive enough as it is. I'm not paying more money just so I have a precise idea of what to do with the plane. Part of the fun is figuring out for myself what a lot of these variables are and how it affects the plane. We've already got an "idea" of CG and the battery to be used. We've also always known that CG is but a suggestion and that's where we start.
So, do we expect the distributor to do it? By that time, all the manuals are printed. Then what? Do we expect the final seller to do it? Again, how do you get that into the manual without a costly reprint? Guys like RCInformer, Capt. Ryan with Motion already do unboxings and flight reviews for us. It's up to us to find them and watch them and hopefully, we don't pay extra for that but I have feeling even here, there is a price to be paid. I doubt the manufacturer or the seller sends these things to the reviewers for free and not include that in their "overhead". And again, what cost to add that to the manual before the plane goes out to the masses?
We're probably talking only thousands or maybe 10's of thousands of units per product will ever be sold (RC models). Unlike automobiles, where they sell 100's of thousands or even millions of units per model run, they can better absorb the cost of crash testing a few models, doing recalls and such. Even there, I don't ever think that a $50K car actually costs $50K to put to make. Sure, there's inflation and increased labor costs over the decades, but customers want more and more and more and this doesn't come without a price increase. The masses can barely afford many of the cars they try to sell these days. Price increases just squeezes them into a smaller and smaller corner of the market. Those who can't afford it, buy used or get out (take transit) and those numbers increase as prices increase. The 8 richest people in the world who possess 1/2 the entire world's wealth don't buy the bulk of product that is sold.

[bradl4648]

Yea the manuals could be better but kinda shocked to hear bad about freewings they go into exploded views. I like dynam planes allot but if you want to talk about bad manuals theirs is literally a poster and the pictures are blurry and too close. As for CG I myself never had to cg a foam plane yet I have stuck the battery in and it flew solid I guess I get lucky LoL.

[jackcutrone]

I would be happy to volunteer to flight test new models and write the flying section. As long as the manufacturers send me a free plane that is. LOL

[starcop]

Imagine a manual that explained things well. I guess they might not need me? Kidding, I know, this is something we are working with the Manufactures to correct as the best we can. Everyone perceives things differently, so one person will complain about something entirely different. Finding that happy medium is tough to do. Rest assured we are working at it. Another issue is keeping things, cost effective. As things change, for the better, it can cost more for the revisions. I'd like to see things stay cost effective as long as possible. I can usually figure things out with a call or youtube.com video. Anyways, I hope everyone's enjoying the new FlightlineRC aircraft? They are a step in the right direction from my perspective. Cheers! Matt C/S

[PappaBear]

Hi Guys,

Every pilot is an individual and every model is also individual to a particular pilot. When you speak about the particular flying qualities of a model, what exactly are you going to comment on and to what degree do you test it. For example if we take a simple scale model such as a Piper Cub. If this model is flown in a scale realistic fashion as the full size would be flown it would be limited to simple flight maneuvers such as straight and level flight, maybe a steep turn of 60 degrees. You certainly wouldn't subject it to inverted flight and snap rolls. The exception to this would be a modified clipped wing version with an inverted fuel and oil system. However a model would certainly fly inverted without any problem.

Now lets look at something a little more aerobatic such as a P-51, or a Spitfire. To what degree of aerobatic flight do you subject the model. The full size of both aircraft are most certainly capable of four and eight point rolls, as well as spins, loops and stall turns. It maybe that the RC pilot performing the flying tests is not capable of flying all the aerobatic maneuvers the model is capable of performing. At what point do you say enough is enough, this model will perform advanced aerobatics.

All of our range of models have been designed to fly in a realistic manner to the full size they represents. The flying tests would have been carried out by several different pilots during the development stage and there comments noted and any modifications carried out at this point before the model goes into production. Any upgrades that are available and recommended are listed in the upgrades for that particular model.

I hope this helps.

Martin.

[xviper]

Imagine a manual that explained things well. I guess they might not need me? Kidding, I know, this is something we are working with the Manufactures to correct as the best we can. Everyone perceives things differently, so one person will complain about something entirely different. Finding that happy medium is tough to do. Rest assured we are working at it. Another issue is keeping things, cost effective. As things change, for the better, it can cost more for the revisions. I'd like to see things stay cost effective as long as possible. I can usually figure things out with a call or youtube.com video. Anyways, I hope everyone's enjoying the new FlightlineRC aircraft? They are a step in the right direction from my perspective. Cheers! Matt C/S

And therein lies the crux of the situation. Only a couple of years ago, I would have never thought it possible for a foamie airplane cost upwards of $500.00 US as we see today. Even my Flightline P-38, priced at $350.00US, got to my door after I shelled out just a hair under $600.00 CAN. My old SebArt Mig29 was (to me) a staggering $800.00 CAN. Those almost caused a divorce twice. If a company had to have more employees to fly the bag off a new model and then write that experience in a manual, what would that add to the cost of a model run of say, even 500 to 1000 planes? $50.00/plane? $100.00/plane? That might just put those planes out of my hanger. We're no longer talking just the usual pre-production testing that all models go through. Now, we're talking extensive "ringing out" so that the manual can include things like "stall speeds" with and without flaps, "tip stall characteristics", "what changes when a different battery is used", "how much take off roll before it lifts off", on pavement, on grass. This list can be endless as each individual considers a certain piece of information critical to him. If they do it, I want to apply for "ring out" pilot and take minimum wage to do it. But since I'm retired, I'd do it for free. Am I willing to go live permanently in China? Well, no.

[jackcutrone]

Even my Flightline P-38, priced at $350.00US, got to my door after I shelled out just a hair under $600.00 CAN. My old SebArt Mig29 was (to me) a staggering $800.00 CAN. Those almost caused a divorce twice.

You'll just have to keep trying harder Xviper2. I certainly am.

Jack

[Silentuser]

I wish they could find an english speaking American who speaks Chinese well and knows RC completely to translate and write the manuals. They seem to vary from totally worthless to ok. Don't even get me started on the incorrect C.G.'s. I have had so many scary, or worse, maidens because of incorrect C.G.'s. from the manual. Most E-Fite manuals are pretty good. I wish the others would follow suit. Doc

A lot of manuals leave a lot to be desired. One thing I do is NEVER trust what the manual says regarding CG, I do my research using the many CG calculators that are avail on the net & don't have any balance issues.

[Silentuser]

And therein lies the crux of the situation. Only a couple of years ago, I would have never thought it possible for a foamie airplane cost upwards of $500.00 US as we see today. Even my Flightline P-38, priced at $350.00US, got to my door after I shelled out just a hair under $600.00 CAN. My old SebArt Mig29 was (to me) a staggering $800.00 CAN. Those almost caused a divorce twice. If a company had to have more employees to fly the bag off a new model and then write that experience in a manual, what would that add to the cost of a model run of say, even 500 to 1000 planes? $50.00/plane? $100.00/plane? That might just put those planes out of my hanger. We're no longer talking just the usual pre-production testing that all models go through. Now, we're talking extensive "ringing out" so that the manual can include things like "stall speeds" with and without flaps, "tip stall characteristics", "what changes when a different battery is used", "how much take off roll before it lifts off", on pavement, on grass. This list can be endless as each individual considers a certain piece of information critical to him. If they do it, I want to apply for "ring out" pilot and take minimum wage to do it. But since I'm retired, I'd do it for free. Am I willing to go live permanently in China? Well, no.

They are all very valid points you make, it's all about cost of manufacturing & end unit price. Most models that I have reviewed over many many years (more than most would ever own!) fly okay providing the owner does some research beforehand. These foamies have been around a while now in other build forms from other manufacturers so nothing really new other than they are getting more expensive

[Oxotnik]

Oh my God, you guys actually read manuals? I mean like before you've already goofed something up? Isn't there a clause in the Man Handbook that expressly forbids the reading of manuals, which immediately follows the clause forbidding the asking of directions while driving. :huh: :angel:

[xviper]

Oh my God, you guys actually read manuals? I mean like before you've already goofed something up? Isn't there a clause in the Man Handbook that expressly forbids the reading of manuals, which immediately follows the clause forbidding the asking of directions while driving. :huh: :angel:

Haven't you read all the research papers of late? With all the estrogen-like substances in our food chain and water supply, we've all changed into girly-men.

[Alpha]

That's pretty funny, you guys.

...Get it? "Pretty"? :D

I'm happy to say that we've engaged one of our well spoken customer family to edit the manufacturer provided manuals. This will be a long process, but in the same way Tom wrote almost all of the Strega manual, we know that the extra effort is worth it. If there's a specific question you have about a model that isn't covered clearly in its manual, as always feel free to contact our tech support team at 224-633-9090 8am-6pm M-F, and they'll be happy to get you sorted.

[Oxotnik]

Alpha, I've been ranting on RCG about a horrible CS experience that I'm having with HobbyKing. In the same rant, I say how much I like MRC's customer service. You guys rock! Good Customer Service does matter and keeps loyal customers!

Chuck

[seaviper]

I should have titled this thread "funniest quotes from plane manuals". I think it would have been a better discussion.
Motion is the best out there. Period. And thanks to Alpha for chiming in on the subject.

Any way, I vote we close this and move on to other more important things. <salute>

[Grossman56]

Dang, I wonder what 'well spoken' member of the family that could possibly be????

Grossman56

[doctormike]

Really?! Good for you!!!....and us!...Especially for newcomers who don't have a clue. Doc

[Grossman56]

Seavip. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to bend the direction slightly and make this a positive thing. I'm planning on making a slight addition to the manual called Builders Tips. Ryan's build videos have been a great source of info as well as the guys here on the Squawk, so I've been referencing them within, as well as giving some of the more 'immediate' info that will come in handy. I reasoned that, if everyone is like me, and I have s stinking suspicion that they are, they're not running to their PC's when they get a new airplane!
So what I'd like to do is have some comments from you guys who own specific planes as to CG and battery sizes, build short cuts, things like that. For instance with the Flightline 1200 mm planes, skipping steps one and two and leaving them until the wing is attached.
Also, for the guys who go out of their way to present a build thread, why not reference that as well. Not only a good thing for a first time builder, but what better way to introduce HobbySquawk, Motion R/C and our great video team of Mike and Ryan to guys who just got their first kit and aren't aware of all the support that comes with it. You'll notice that Ryan is great for that on the videos as he always references us at the end, which is awesome, this is our way of doing the same.
Now, let me state right off, that I'm a novice when it comes to Adobe Editor, so I'm learning something from each manual I do, so they will get progressively better! I'm also going to be updating the ones I've already completed as their may be some info that I didn't know when they were first revised, I'll do that as an ongoing thing as well as revising the others. Now, I could use a hand getting the Editor program down, so if there is anyone who has a great knowledge of Adobe Acrobat DC Pro, PM me, I could use a few tips. Like I said I'm learning with every session I put in on the program, as you likely see.

So, here's the plan. I'm waiting to hear from Alpha as to whether the builders tips section is a go. Once I've heard, and it's good to go, I'll post the name of a kit that I need some info on, give it a week or so to get responses from the gang here and then I'll add it. What better way for us to make a contribution!!

Grossman56

[petefoss]

Are the assembly manuals available on Motion's website? I've look and search but not finding them? NEVER MIND GOOGLE SEARCH FOUND IT.