Freewing Mirage 2000C V2 “Tiger Meet” 80mm EDF - Official Thread

[Evan D]

I've had more than one, I think five all together, I had three flying at the same time once. All mine have been/ are the original V1 but I have had multiple EDF units and multiple ESCs and flown on many different batteries including a very hot Jet Fan/ Het 8S set up and the most current FreeWIng 2150 EDF and the most current 100A reversing ESC. One reason why I do think my seniority with this particular aircraft could be of use to others.

Currently I have a simple Hobby King 100A ESC in mine and use a Power Hobby 5000mAh 100C 6S LiPo (mine weigh 545-565g each) to answer your question. You didn't ask what EDF. An older outrunner 12b 1850kV. I did try the new 2150, as I said, but felt the old 1850kV gave me the best all around performance and has been clocked at 144mph last time I took it out. A new V2 Mirage with the new 2150 was clocked at 136 that day.

[Olivier_]

Interesting ESC. It looks large but I'm not sure it is especially without the fan. I don't think it will negatively effect balance. For me it's way over the price I would pay for a ESC but I don't use many features it has.

Which mirage version do you have ?
which esc and battery do you use ?

[Evan D]

Interesting ESC. It looks large but I'm not sure it is especially without the fan. I don't think it will negatively effect balance. For me it's way over the price I would pay for a ESC but I don't use many features it has.

[Olivier_]

I agree with you! We both have the right to state our positions and why we feel that way.

I think I was the first helping you when you had questions too.

I’m eager to see what mods you make in countering these design flaws. What ESC are you going to?

Absolutely, thank you for your help.

I will test with Spektrum Avian 120 AMP 6-12S dual socket for 2 lipos - SPMXAE1120HV.

https://www.horizonhobby.fr/fr_FR/product/avian-120-amp-brushless-smart-esc-6s---12s/SPMXAE1120HV.html

I haven't received it yet.

Positive points compared to the original Freewing ESC:

• ESC temperature sensor
• transmission temperature and voltage of each cell of lipo 1
• transmission temperature and voltage of each cell of lipo 2
• (for controlling a possible discharge imbalance between the 2 lipos)

negative points :

• 100g more

I want to test the discharge balance : see if the avian ESC manages the discharge balance between 2 lipos connected to the ESC : For example with 2 lipos identical in all respects except in age and number of cycles.

Please feel free to give me your opinion on these points.

I also find the position of the ESC in the upper part of the fuselage not very happy, rather than in the lower part: the CG is therefore higher in my opinion, after that it may be insignificant for 120g but less for 220g, the weight of the Spektrum ESC.
What do you think ?

[Evan D]

I agree with you! We both have the right to state our positions and why we feel that way.

I think I was the first helping you when you had questions too.

I’m eager to see what mods you make in countering these design flaws. What ESC are you going to?

[Olivier_]

Excellent post Mike. Excellent. My objection was the flat statement that the plane was poorly designed for those two specific reasons he called out and I do strongly disagree. Overall, the plane, not just this one nor even FreeWing specific are designed to a price. There is a reason. To me a good reason. These planes have some areas that commonly need attention, glue on the retract mounts is one that comes quickly to mind. Another on some of these is not having a screw through control horns, just glued into the surface (Avanti and F-104 have had reported crashes from this). Many replace all the servos when they assemble these planes. Many pull or bypass mixing boards, MCBes, or blue boxes. Then there are things that for a few cents more could be improved, ball links instead of clevis.

But he specifically called out two areas and he hasn't built or flown it. Calling out access to the ESC because the grill is glued down is nowhere near an engineering deficiency to me as you can put a screw driver through the slats. As you said if it bothers you then mod it but to me there's almost never a reason for me to need to remove that grill. Then. the screws. Could it be better? Yes but their simple way works amazingly well. If he had simply asked if anyone changed how the ESC was mounted and not started with FreeWings design is bad, I would have agreed and offered to maybe use a long thin zip tie instead. But again the screws work and as I noted I put a dab of white tube glue on them if I'm in there. I also put tape over the ESC to motor bullet connectors.

And things do improve. The Mirage has been out for almost 10 years and FreeWing seldom changes things like he's noted without issuing a V2 like the Avanti V2. And note on it and the Cougar the ESC screws now go into a plastic mount not plywood.

I find it interesting on here when people complain things like the pushrods aren't always adjusted to the exact right length out of the box on PNP or RTF planes. Or when two opposing servos (aileron, flaps, elevator) don't have exactly the same arm angle and then don't have exactly the same throw. There will always be things but are they design flaws? And don't get me talking about some other brands where you don't get all or proper sized hardware, the servos really are questionable, and commonly have dead retracts or other electronics.

So, as I admitted it bugs me. and no, it's not just on FreeWing planes as I've been accused of working for.

This is a forum where everyone can give their point of view.
What right do you have to distribute good or bad points to those who talk about "valid subjects" or "invalid subjects" on the Mirage ?
Your seniority on this plane or whatever, does not give you any more right to define the subjects to be discussed or not discussed here.
This forum is free for everyone, including you, to say that you disagree with me. No problem.

Even if you don't like it, I maintain that this is a lack of design rigor on the part of Freewing for the reasons that I have already developed and in particular for the immovable grid which is absolutely not the welcome to not only unscrew the ESC but, even worse, to install the new ESC and adjust it in its slot.
We can actually modify these inadequacies each on our own without ever talking about them on a forum. Free to everyone, but this forum here is the place where we can share these design weaknesses.

On this subject, I am in the process of overcoming these weak points of the plane. I will share my solutions soon so that everyone can be inspired by them or not.

[Evan D]

Excellent post Mike. Excellent. My objection was the flat statement that the plane was poorly designed for those two specific reasons he called out and I do strongly disagree. Overall, the plane, not just this one nor even FreeWing specific are designed to a price. There is a reason. To me a good reason. These planes have some areas that commonly need attention, glue on the retract mounts is one that comes quickly to mind. Another on some of these is not having a screw through control horns, just glued into the surface (Avanti and F-104 have had reported crashes from this). Many replace all the servos when they assemble these planes. Many pull or bypass mixing boards, MCBes, or blue boxes. Then there are things that for a few cents more could be improved, ball links instead of clevis.

But he specifically called out two areas and he hasn't built or flown it. Calling out access to the ESC because the grill is glued down is nowhere near an engineering deficiency to me as you can put a screw driver through the slats. As you said if it bothers you then mod it but to me there's almost never a reason for me to need to remove that grill. Then. the screws. Could it be better? Yes but their simple way works amazingly well. If he had simply asked if anyone changed how the ESC was mounted and not started with FreeWings design is bad, I would have agreed and offered to maybe use a long thin zip tie instead. But again the screws work and as I noted I put a dab of white tube glue on them if I'm in there. I also put tape over the ESC to motor bullet connectors.

And things do improve. The Mirage has been out for almost 10 years and FreeWing seldom changes things like he's noted without issuing a V2 like the Avanti V2. And note on it and the Cougar the ESC screws now go into a plastic mount not plywood.

I find it interesting on here when people complain things like the pushrods aren't always adjusted to the exact right length out of the box on PNP or RTF planes. Or when two opposing servos (aileron, flaps, elevator) don't have exactly the same arm angle and then don't have exactly the same throw. There will always be things but are they design flaws? And don't get me talking about some other brands where you don't get all or proper sized hardware, the servos really are questionable, and commonly have dead retracts or other electronics.

So, as I admitted it bugs me. and no, it's not just on FreeWing planes as I've been accused of working for.

[nrthwing]

I think Olivier makes a great point. Being in the hobby for over 35 years, I came from building via wood kits. Constructing back then, one inspected every joint, screw and did whatever necessary to ensure there were no unexpected failures. Then came early ARFs, and all of them were poorly constructed. Careful examination, regluing, and reinforcement was a must!
For me this still carries over to my PNP planes today.

Could Freewing pay more attention to details? Yes - Absolutely!
Unfortunately everything revolves around price.
By the time Freewing builds it, ships it and Motion gets their cut, the original plane was built super quickly and with underpaid foreign labor making it a marketable item for us consumers.

For myself, I mentally had to find the balance between expectations and reality in regards to quality.
I’ve owned all major brands and everyone had their flaws and shortcomings.
I’m somewhat OCD and go over each plane with a fine tooth comb. Unfortunately I now fully expect I’ll have to “tinker” with it long before I’ve added to the shopping cart.

My 2cents
Mike

[Olivier_]

Whoever knew that the Mirage, which modelers have been flying for years with no significant issues, is in fact such a defective design and that Freewing's designers are so incompetent.

Thanks, Olivier, for pointing this out to us.

Thank you but you are going a bit too hard on Freewing. No, the quality is there overall but they can still improve on certain points like those I indicated : fixing the ESC and access to the ESC for dismantling or replacement.

[kallend]

Whoever knew that the Mirage, which modelers have been flying for years with no significant issues, is in fact such a defective design and that Freewing's designers are so incompetent.

Thanks, Olivier, for pointing this out to us.

[Evan D]

I’ve been flying the Mirage for 10 years. At one time I had two I was flying, one stock and one 8S. All three I’ve had are the V1.

No, I don’t have any relationship with Motion or FreeWing other than a paying customer.

[Olivier_]

Actually I am… the engineering flaw of having to remove the cheater grid to unscrew the ESC when a screw driver fits through the slats just isn’t. Yes it may be easier but I would never call it a design flaw. As far as the wood plate, just about all these use it and I don’t recall anyone saying they lost a fan because of a screw. Could it happen, sure, but you just got this and I think you’ll be overly critical when you encounter something like a loose retract mount or servo arms at odd angles, not counting any number of possible issues.

Again good luck with your Mirage.

I'm going to end up believing that you have financial shares in freewing to dispute the evidence ?? 😀😁
I repeat : small poorly screwed tapping screws, moreover in wood to maintain a 120g ESC which will also gain inertia by the acceleration forces and is not up to par with the rest of the plane. Why did Freewing provide magnets for the nose of the plane or for the tanks? No doubt because it is more practical for transport or for many other reasons which are indeed valid. This concern for quality is not found for the ESC, because nothing is provided to facilitate removal, replacement in the event of breakdowns or for people who wish to use another ESC. And the same for the immovable grid which is absolutely not welcome not only for removing the ESC but, worse, for installing and then adjusting the new ESC in the location. We can clearly see that Freewing was not at the end of a quality design in this area of the plane.
Good luck also with your Mirage.

[Evan D]

Actually I am… the engineering flaw of having to remove the cheater grid to unscrew the ESC when a screw driver fits through the slats just isn’t. Yes it may be easier but I would never call it a design flaw. As far as the wood plate, just about all these use it and I don’t recall anyone saying they lost a fan because of a screw. Could it happen, sure, but you just got this and I think you’ll be overly critical when you encounter something like a loose retract mount or servo arms at odd angles, not counting any number of possible issues.

Again good luck with your Mirage.

[Olivier_]

No tinkering required in my opinion. Nothing neglected. If this is disappointing to you, well I expect you to be disappointed a lot if you remain in the hobby. Good luck with your Mirage.

You seem annoyed by my remarks. Good for you if you settle for mediocrity with glue left and right.
I maintain that 2 small tapping screws to hold a 120g ESC in a 3mm wooden plate is a neglected and disappointing solution at this location of the aircraft.
I add that I didn't even need to unscrew them with a screwdriver, the plate came off with little resistance.
Freewing too, can and must improve, and thanks to its customers like you and me.

[kallend]

Wow, with more than twenty EDF models (including a bunch of twins) over some 7 years I am now shocked that no ESC has been sucked into the fan in any of them. Something else to worry about.

[Evan D]

No tinkering required in my opinion. Nothing neglected. If this is disappointing to you, well I expect you to be disappointed a lot if you remain in the hobby. Good luck with your Mirage.

[Olivier_]

Most if not all FreeWing planes attach the ESC that way. I add a dab of the white tube glue to the tops of the screws. Most people don’t and it works.

You don’t need to remove the grill. A long screw driver between the slats works.

This “tinkering” to secure the plane remains disappointing in view of the rest of the quality of the plane. We can clearly see that this part was neglected by the manufacturer.

[Evan D]

Most if not all FreeWing planes attach the ESC that way. I add a dab of the white tube glue to the tops of the screws. Most people don’t and it works.

You don’t need to remove the grill. A long screw driver between the slats works.

[Olivier_]

Hello
I just received my Mirage V2.
Here are the photos of the ESC and EDF compartment.
I note the following design weaknesses which are surprising given the rest of the quality of the product :

• screwing and plating the ESC into a 3 mm wooden plate: random attachment (look at the photo), not very secure and very risky in this location: just in front of the EDF.
• To remove or change the ESC, you must remove the ventilation grille. Not practical at all: a magnet or screw fixing system would have been more judicious.

[Olivier_]

Hello
Can someone post a photo of the ESC and EDF compartment please ?
thanks 😀