Project Foil Guesses?

[rifleman_btx]

I would say twin 80s or quad 64mm. Any larger would make it overpriced

[MANFRED]

64s are too whiney, The biggest issue with this ship would be the long nose gear and main gear complexity. Can you imagine this ship covered in flite metal or metal tape?

[rifleman_btx]

Just think quad 70s are just a little high on the current draw. Twin 70s or 80s would be great

[MANFRED]

The more I look at this ship, the more I want one or two!!!

[rifleman_btx]

It is a good looking ship for sure

[F106DeltaDart]

The more I look at this ship, the more I want one or two!!!

Definitely a sweet looking bomber! Needs an equally good looking fighter to escort it!

[rifleman_btx]

Indeed!!!!

[MANFRED]

Not gonna let this Hustler go until they reveal what Foil is...

[Alpha]

Sorry friends, while the Convair B-58 Hustler is one my top three favorite bombers of all time, it is not Project Foil. I had the privilege of watching Dorian Anderson's scratchbuilt 4x70mm B-58 come to life a few years ago, eventually watching it fly in 2013, and having crawled all over that model I can safely say I'd rather develop a Blackbird or Concorde or Lancer or Spirit or Vulcan if I'm going to attempt "crazy/big/expensive/limited". The only other commonly requested models more difficult to *cost-effectively* execute in foam EDF PNP than a Hustler would be a BUFF, XB-70, or Harrier/VTOL'd F-35. All of these are on my personal dreamlist as a modeler for sure, but far from cost-effective as a developer. Every year we do include a curveball Project in the mix to test market appetites, and in general I'd say we push the "New" envelope more than most, but overall the fundamental priority is to stay alive by wisely managing risk.

While a stunning and gorgeous aircraft to watch in the sky, Dorian's 4x70mm B-58 presented a host of challenges in composite/wood that would be expensive to execute in foam. I consider Dorian a Master Builder far more skilled than I and we mulled over some of those challenges he overcame, while the whole time in my head I'm thinking down the list from a mass-production standpoint: "bad, expensive, bad, bad, expensive, bad, expensive...." As an example, the nacelles would be about the length of the 64mm F-105, and there'd be four of them, and the length of the sharp lipped duct would rob efficiency. Necessarily thickening the nacelles and long pylons so they'd be strong enough to bear the nacelle's loads would change the overall proportions of the original aircraft to being thicker and more rounded, which for a sleek delta like the Hustler would seem a crime. The look of the aircraft would begin to change, and on an aircraft like this at this scale, it would be more noticeable than some of us realize. I drew a quick dimensioning analysis in 2015 to see what the actual proportions would be for the Hustler in foam, and it looked "off". Ground clearance is a huge concern also, and judging from the flak we get about oversizing A-10 wheels for grass ops I'm certain I'd get hung for how non-scale the Hustler's undercarriage would have to be :). I can't put 1.5" wheels on a 70" long PNP.

The model's size, even at 4x70mm, actually isn't a concern in my book. I think the size would be great! But that size would directly translate to cost. Fitting it in a mold, then fitting it in a shippable box, then us paying for that shipping cost out to customers. The adage that bigger flies better is true, but bigger is also more expensive and I'd openly wonder about the mass market appeal of a 4x70mm bomber that required four 6s 4000s to fly well and easily cost north of $600. Could a six figure investment be recouped? If we're honest with the data, probably not.


In another attempt to try to put this guessing thread back on track, Project Foil isn't bare aluminum, either. :-P

Instead of sidetracking this Project Foil guessing game thread, someone should start a separate Wishlist thread or Poll thread so we can keep better track of people's wishlists for aircraft of all sizes/types/formats. They're always fun to see, and do contribute to our internal discussions, so keep the lists coming! The one thing I'd ask is please don't set one model in your mind as the only thing that would make you happy. We're part of a community and part of my dream is for us as a community to support the advancement of the community at large. That means that sometimes a small warbird is going to hit shelves for guys with smaller budgets or fields, sometimes it's going to be that big scale jet, sometimes it's going to be a trainer because new pilots are critical to growing the hobby, and on and on. Sometimes we're going to release something right up your alley, which is great, but sometimes we won't, and we hope that's okay, too. I hope more of us can root for the expansion of the hobby as a concept unrooted from any single product. "Something for everyone" is key. As a modeler, and as a developer, I have come to embrace the realization that even if every single full size aircraft ever made had a well flying, well priced, well serviced RC model counterpart for people to buy, this Hobby *still* wouldn't be growing in the way it should be. It's not about making a Hustler and a Concorde and a Starship and a Mars and a Hun and an Owl and a Gannet and a Swoose Goose and a Flying Pancake and a Pfeil and a Fulcrum and a Lancer and a Fishbed and Dragon Rapide and a Short Stirling and an Eagle and a Voodoo and a Viggen and a Horten and another F-16 and a Beaufighter and a Dart and Hayate and a Shinryu and Lancaster and a Lancair and a Libellula and a Tomcat and a Foxbat and a Moonbat, and, and, and, and, and, and, AND, and, and.... Rather, it's about inspiring and engaging people of all ages to fly something, and keep flying, and do so safely, while having lots of fun, and hopefully sharing that fun with someone new. We each have a bigger role to play in the proliferation of our beloved Hobby, my friends. It's us, not the planes, that will do it.





Actually on second thought I do need to make a Moonbat.

[Patrnflyr]

And an OV10 Bronco. Agree 100% but how do these small Chinese fly by night ops put out the bizarre like the YF-23 and the popular F-22? Seems like they universally have major issues but people always buy them and then exchange everything out to make it flyable. After reading your prototype narrative above, it seems the mold is the most expensive part of model making. If that’s true, how do these little guys make it? Do they steal the molds as some have mentioned on other forums? Also, agree with a community comment. When you release a 64mm, I simply say, “how nice...” and move on. When you release something Russian, I do the same thing. Now, when you release a 90mm heavy metal plane, I sit up and take notice. Other people may be completely opposite so I understand the need for a wide ranging inventory.

[Petronio]

Amen! Ok, so my 2 cents for a new class of jets (which has already been proposed a couple of times) are canards, especially from the nordics, aka Viggen or Grippen (I realise making the thrust reverse adds to complexity and cost. But it is a must; cost I can assume and complexity I am absolutely convinced Mrc and FW can come up with a clever idea as you did with the gear door of the L39 or just like always in your models). I realise you have the Mir2000 and it is actually one of my all time favourite but its reduced size always made me refrain from buying it.
I think itis a good idea to open a poll about new jet categories (not specific planes as you have pointed out), hope someone opens a thread like that, it is also interesting to encounter new jet families that one was not so acquainted with but that are actually very attractive to most.

[wolpertinger]

Well said Alpha,

Now getting back to the teasing

So what do we have so far for project Foil.

1. Foil = EDF
2. Hoot = Fast but Foil = Faster
3. History:
   1. Military Campaigns, Projects,
   2. Alphas prior hints / clues, pattern, pilots
4. Cloud Atlas:
   1. A story: consists of six nested stories, whereof each is read (or observed) by a main character of the next. The first five stories are each interrupted at a pivotal moment. After the sixth story, the other five stories are closed, in reverse chronological order, and each ends with the main character reading or observing the chronologically previous work in the chain. Each story contains a document, movie, or tradition that appears in a previous story. "Reincarnation"
5. Ozymandias:
   1. A poem that describes a broken statue of a legendary king of ancient times, lying forgotten in the desert, with these words carved on its base: "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
   2. An ancient Greek name for Ramses II of Egypt
   3. The poem Ozymandias is ironic as it mocks the "King of Kings". What was once great is now in shambles. (Man's Hubris?)
6. Foil:
   1. To prevent (something considered wrong or undesirable) from succeeding. (Na..)
   2. The track or scent of a hunted animal. (Maybe - Radar tracking?)
   3. A light fencing sword without cutting edges but with a button on its point. ( a Saber? Na to obvious.)
   4. In fiction, a character who contrasts with another character to highlight particular qualities of the other character. In some cases, a subplot can be used as a foil to the main plot. (na)
   5. Math's - foil method? (Na)
7. Ruled out:
   1. Alpha Post #552 - Not an An SR-71 Black bird (Black Paint on foam) an not a Foxbat. (drat).

So, it is Historic, Fast, spawned many generations, great plane but now lies in the desert and was used to stop other planes. (an Interceptor?)


What other breadcrumbs were dropped to tease us....

Alpha now added

it is not raw aluminim
it is not a Hustler.

Ok, so what does that leave us?

Must be faster that Hoot (L-39 is 530mph)
From the Former Soviet Union? (Ozymandias refrrence)
Has an after burner?

hoping that the logic of the crowd will work here...

[Valkpilot]

Sorry friends, while the Convair B-58 Hustler is one my top three favorite bombers of all time, it is not Project Foil. I had the privilege of watching Dorian Anderson's scratchbuilt 4x70mm B-58 come to life a few years ago, eventually watching it fly in 2013, and having crawled all over that model I can safely say I'd rather develop a Blackbird or Concorde or Lancer or Spirit or Vulcan if I'm going to attempt "crazy/big/expensive/limited". The only other commonly requested models more difficult to *cost-effectively* execute in foam EDF PNP than a Hustler would be a BUFF, XB-70, or Harrier/VTOL'd F-35. All of these are on my personal dreamlist as a modeler for sure, but far from cost-effective as a developer. Every year we do include a curveball Project in the mix to test market appetites, and in general I'd say we push the "New" envelope more than most, but overall the fundamental priority is to stay alive by wisely managing risk.

While a stunning and gorgeous aircraft to watch in the sky, Dorian's 4x70mm B-58 presented a host of challenges in composite/wood that would be expensive to execute in foam. I consider Dorian a Master Builder far more skilled than I and we mulled over some of those challenges he overcame, while the whole time in my head I'm thinking down the list from a mass-production standpoint: "bad, expensive, bad, bad, expensive, bad, expensive...." As an example, the nacelles would be about the length of the 64mm F-105, and there'd be four of them, and the length of the sharp lipped duct would rob efficiency. Necessarily thickening the nacelles and long pylons so they'd be strong enough to bear the nacelle's loads would change the overall proportions of the original aircraft to being thicker and more rounded, which for a sleek delta like the Hustler would seem a crime. The look of the aircraft would begin to change, and on an aircraft like this at this scale, it would be more noticeable than some of us realize. I drew a quick dimensioning analysis in 2015 to see what the actual proportions would be for the Hustler in foam, and it looked "off". Ground clearance is a huge concern also, and judging from the flak we get about oversizing A-10 wheels for grass ops I'm certain I'd get hung for how non-scale the Hustler's undercarriage would have to be :). I can't put 1.5" wheels on a 70" long PNP.

The model's size, even at 4x70mm, actually isn't a concern in my book. I think the size would be great! But that size would directly translate to cost. Fitting it in a mold, then fitting it in a shippable box, then us paying for that shipping cost out to customers. The adage that bigger flies better is true, but bigger is also more expensive and I'd openly wonder about the mass market appeal of a 4x70mm bomber that required four 6s 4000s to fly well and easily cost north of $600. Could a six figure investment be recouped? If we're honest with the data, probably not.


In another attempt to try to put this guessing thread back on track, Project Foil isn't bare aluminum, either. :-P

Instead of sidetracking this Project Foil guessing game thread, someone should start a separate Wishlist thread or Poll thread so we can keep better track of people's wishlists for aircraft of all sizes/types/formats. They're always fun to see, and do contribute to our internal discussions, so keep the lists coming! The one thing I'd ask is please don't set one model in your mind as the only thing that would make you happy. We're part of a community and part of my dream is for us as a community to support the advancement of the community at large. That means that sometimes a small warbird is going to hit shelves for guys with smaller budgets or fields, sometimes it's going to be that big scale jet, sometimes it's going to be a trainer because new pilots are critical to growing the hobby, and on and on. Sometimes we're going to release something right up your alley, which is great, but sometimes we won't, and we hope that's okay, too. I hope more of us can root for the expansion of the hobby as a concept unrooted from any single product. "Something for everyone" is key. As a modeler, and as a developer, I have come to embrace the realization that even if every single full size aircraft ever made had a well flying, well priced, well serviced RC model counterpart for people to buy, this Hobby *still* wouldn't be growing in the way it should be. It's not about making a Hustler and a Concorde and a Starship and a Mars and a Hun and an Owl and a Gannet and a Swoose Goose and a Flying Pancake and a Pfeil and a Fulcrum and a Lancer and a Fishbed and Dragon Rapide and a Short Stirling and an Eagle and a Voodoo and a Viggen and a Horten and another F-16 and a Beaufighter and a Dart and Hayate and a Shinryu and Lancaster and a Lancair and a Libellula and a Tomcat and a Foxbat and a Moonbat, and, and, and, and, and, and, AND, and, and.... Rather, it's about inspiring and engaging people of all ages to fly something, and keep flying, and do so safely, while having lots of fun, and hopefully sharing that fun with someone new. We each have a bigger role to play in the proliferation of our beloved Hobby, my friends. It's us, not the planes, that will do it.





Actually on second thought I do need to make a Moonbat.

"Sorry friends, while the Convair B-58 Hustler is one my top three favorite bombers of all time, it is not Project Foil. I had the privilege of watching Dorian Anderson's scratchbuilt 4x70mm B-58 come to life a few years ago, eventually watching it fly in 2013, and having crawled all over that model I can safely say I'd rather develop a Blackbird or Concorde or Lancer or Spirit or Vulcan if I'm going to attempt "crazy/big/expensive/limited". The only other commonly requested models more difficult to *cost-effectively* execute in foam EDF PNP than a Hustler would be a BUFF, XB-70, or Harrier/VTOL'd F-35."
On the Hustler. Perhaps you're thinking too big. Why not 4 50 mm EDFs? On the other models. LX makes both the Blackbird and the Spirit, though not as high quality as most on here are used to and the Spirit they
"cheat" using two 64mm EDFs in stead of four like the real thing. And you could use the same "cheat" on the Vulcan(there's a British company that does a Depron version) and the Bone. And if you can swing-wing an F-14, the Bone wouldn't' be that much more difficult. And now to the one closest to my heart, and why I started flying RC. NiceSky did a "cheater" 70mm XB-70 who's only major flaw was cheap landing gear. It's no longer in production, but I do still have the air frame, with the intent of installing fixed landing gear and an upgraded EDF. Check the other boards, or talk to the crew that went to Jet Jam because there were two
of different sizes there, with the larger one probably being a custom build.

[vdanger]

Most people are certain Project Foil is an F-100 because of the Sabre link.

But most F-100's were bare aluminum. Oh-Oh!

[Evoman]

Amen! Ok, so my 2 cents for a new class of jets (which has already been proposed a couple of times) are canards, especially from the nordics, aka Viggen or Grippen (I realise making the thrust reverse adds to complexity and cost. But it is a must; cost I can assume and complexity I am absolutely convinced Mrc and FW can come up with a clever idea as you did with the gear door of the L39 or just like always in your models). I realise you have the Mir2000 and it is actually one of my all time favourite but its reduced size always made me refrain from buying it.
I think itis a good idea to open a poll about new jet categories (not specific planes as you have pointed out), hope someone opens a thread like that, it is also interesting to encounter new jet families that one was not so acquainted with but that are actually very attractive to most.

I also agree! The Viggen or Gripen is one of those few airplanes that would actually offer a very different flight experience and capabilities than the average jet that just looks cool and is fast. The trust reverser is not that complex, by my understanding of how the system works it would only require one servo, a 3 piece plastic plates to divert the thrust and a sensor or switch on the nose gear to activate the reverser when the gear is compressed. You would just have to set it to pre- activate it on a spare channel right before landing. I use it all the time when flying my Viggen in the DCS world simulator. Once activated after landing you only need to apply the amount of throttle needed to slow it down.

I also agree there should be more jet categories like bombers and civil airliners or private jets.

[Valkpilot]

Well said Alpha,

Now getting back to the teasing



Alpha now added

it is not raw aluminim
it is not a Hustler.

Ok, so what does that leave us?

Must be faster that Hoot (L-39 12 530mph)
From the Former Soviet Union? (Ozymandias refrrence)
Has an after burner?

hoping that the logic of the crowd will work here...

See posts 775 and 779. All those planes match the criteria. And a T4 using a single 70 mm "cheater" EDF would be great.

[tclaridge]

I was thinking how MotionRC has advanced the hobby. The A-10 in detail and size was a dream come true for me. Now they are adding printed cockpit parts; fantastic! I would like to request the next advancement in model jets is to include a factory afterburner lights. It should dim and bright with the throttle. I know they make aftermarket, but just like LG struts, I would like to see them "factory." Motion has wowed me with the nice details like weapons that remove on pylons. How about burners?

[Grady.c]

Lets see. IL-28 top speed: 560mph, faster than hoot.
From former soviet Union, Check
Had 2 Vk-1s, which have afterburners.
Wasn't bare aluminum most of the time


Looks like us Soviet Jet fans win!

[Grady.c]

At any rate im going to like it considering its a soviet jet. Maybe ill get my wish of a jet bomber, or a Mig-15 thats not crap!

[Grady.c]

What if its a Tu-114? Soviet Union, after burners, faster than hoot, not bare aluminium. At any rate im just guessing to try to get a free copy of the model! My budget is limited and I have to try everything.