2.6 meter class foamy gliders

[Flygirl]

Thanks KJD! I have to ask.... I don't know what a RES is?

[KJD]

My Solius...
The end of this was really funny with me trying to land this thing because I'm always too fast or the thing just won't sink.

Is the end in the video? Also that radio tower looks scary!

That is how wings work, speed equals lift. To slow down we need drag. The best way to get that with the Solius is to reflex the ailerons, like 60° plus. This cause a major change in the pitching moment of the airfoil from a negative (Down) to positive (UP). It also raises the center of drag upward. Both of these action cause the ship to nose up sharply. Far too many novices fear adding down (a lot of down) and as a result stall, snap and crash. I normally mix in 12% to 18% down elevator on spoileron equipped ships. Ships with crow don't need near this much elevator comp as the downward flaps balance out much of the upward going aileron. With Crow I start with 8% to 12% down elevator comp. I hope you weren't trying to land with the aileron acting as flaps (drooping). Attached is how the ailerons look on the Cularis as I'm trying to land.

[KJD]

Thanks KJD! I have to ask.... I don't know what a RES is?

Rudder - Elevator - Spoiler =RES

It comes from the old, old days when at first all we had was Rudder control. Then for a lot more money we got 2 channel radios so our gliders got some Elevator control. As the idea that lift really is a function of speed hadn't caught on, we had big slow moving gas bags. To bring them out of a thermal without tearing off the big delicate wings we added Spoilers. So we identify these simple gliders as RES ships.

Later, much later like in the early 80's the Germans (Dr. Richard Eppler) taught us how wings really work and now we have as many as 6 or more servos in the wing.

http://www.airfoils.com/eppler.htm

[xviper]

I think they should have maintained the nomenclature that they used for the Mystique - Mystique (full house) and Mystique RES. That being said, they should have had the Radian Pro and Radian RES. Now, they should have gone with Radian XL RES. Who knows if they'll bring out a Radian XL full house. That would be folly as someone (I think it was KJD) already said the Radian Pro was a bit of a bust in sales, selling only a fraction of what the Radian sold. (Horizon might show me wrong be presenting actual sales figures).

[Flygirl]

Is the end in the video? Also that radio tower looks scary!

That is how wings work, speed equals lift. To slow down we need drag. The best way to get that with the Solius is to reflex the ailerons like 60° plus. This cause a major change in the pitching moment of the airfoil from a negative (Down) to positive (UP). It also raises the center of drag upward. Both of these action cause the ship to nose up sharply. Far too many novices fear adding down (a lot of down) and as a result stall, snap and crash. I normally mix in 12% to 18% down elevator on spoileron equipped ships. Ships with crow don't need near this much elevator comp as the downward flaps balance out much of the upward going aileron. With Crow I start with 8% to 12% down elevator comp. I hope you weren't trying to land with the aileron acting as flaps (drooping). Attached is how the ailerons look on the Cularis as I'm trying to land.

Yep! It's been awhile since I made that vid but as I recall something happened to the video. I remember something happened to the audio which is why I used that music. ;)

Nope! I had the ailerons going the right way but I have to admit I got caught when I used the spoilerons when landing the first time. I did not expect the nose up and it got me. Thankfully it wasnt too rough of a landing although the wings popped out.

[Flygirl]

I think they should have maintained the nomenclature that they used for the Mystique - Mystique (full house) and Mystique RES. That being said, they should have had the Radian Pro and Radian RES. Now, they should have gone with Radian XL RES. Who knows if they'll bring out a Radian XL full house. That would be folly as someone (I think it was KJD) already said the Radian Pro was a bit of a bust in sales, selling only a fraction of what the Radian sold. (Horizon might show me wrong be presenting actual sales figures).

I've heard no one liked the Pro... Either of you know why? Back when I was buying my Radian 2 meter I thought about the Pro because, well, if it's called a "Pro" it has to be better right? LOL! I didn't buy it because everyone was so effusive about the regular Radian.

[KJD]

I've heard no one liked the Pro... Either of you know why? Back when I was buying my Radian 2 meter I thought about the Pro because, well, if it's called a "Pro" it has to be better right? LOL! I didn't buy it because everyone was so effusive about the regular Radian.

It was a half hearted attempt at a "full house" (never heard that in connection with a glider). The Radian Pro needed much more movement in the trailing edge surfaces. The vertical fin was sized wrong for an aileron equipped ship. It was just a poorly executed model. Well, that is my take on it. Of the two the 2 meter Radian or the Radian Pro, after some rework of the foam hinging and rudder I'd be happy with the Pro as a 2 meter ship.

Now what has really surprised me is how much I like the 1.8m Calypso. With a 980kv Park 480 on 4 cells (10X8 @31 amps), half span flaps set up to really crow and the leading edge of the stab raised 3mm it really will soar (ride the wind) and climb straight up. She will also "Hang" with any foamy 2 meter or smaller glider when the ailerons and flaps are dropped 4mm. It is surprises like these that forces me to keep an open mind as to what the possibilities are! But I still question the why and rational of what is popular (hyped).

[KJD]

Things are popping around here. I need to see what all the racket is about. Have a good night.

[xviper]

I've heard no one liked the Pro... Either of you know why? Back when I was buying my Radian 2 meter I thought about the Pro because, well, if it's called a "Pro" it has to be better right? LOL! I didn't buy it because everyone was so effusive about the regular Radian.

I can't speak for everyone who owns a Pro, only the guys I fly with who has or had one. The Pro, being a full house sailplane is too "fiddly" to program all the functions and to actually use them when flying. However, that's the least of it. What most people didn't like about it, was that it had to be flown all the time. They didn't buy a sailplane that needed to be controlled constantly. Unlike sailplanes with just rudder for roll and yaw control, it was much harder to relax when flying the Pro. It couldn't be left alone for periods of time to just float around. Leave the controls alone for too long and it tries to roll on itself. It'll dip and rise and roll unexpectedly. It was simply "too much work". The guys I fly with don't fly sailplanes to have to work. That's what other airplanes are for and they only fly for a few minutes. They don't compete with them. They're not trying to prove anything with them. They don't need all the various control surface modes to do those "special" things. They just want to sit back, relax and watch their sailplanes carve out graceful patterns in the sky without constant input.
I have one particular friend who has a Pro. He got sick of it constantly going wherever it wanted. When it came down, sometimes it crashed, sometimes it didn't but every time, he was mentally drained. His shirt was wet with perspiration from trying so hard to fly it rather than it trying to fly him. I suggested he get a stabilizer/RTH module. He got one but never put it in for 2 years. Finally after the last crash, I installed the module for him and he's flown it several times since and he now loves it. He can sit in a lawn chair and come up and play with the rest of us. He's the only one who still has a Pro who actually flies it on a regular basis. Another fellow also has a Pro and he's had his RTH module sitting in the box for over a year now. He's just too pre-occupied to install it and he doesn't want to bother me to do it for him. He hasn't flown his Pro for over a year (since his last crash). I think a lot of people bought the Pro when their skill level didn't warrant it. It's like buying a fast EDF when you haven't acquired sufficient flying skill to handle one. It's not going to end well and it's not going to be the wonderful experience that you hope it will be.

[KJD]

That is the issue some had, spiral instability. It comes from the wrong sized vertical fin. The plane flys with a lot of dutch roll.

[Flygirl]

Thanks guys! Vipe, that was nice of you to help that guy get his settled. You're a good egg my friend :)

[xviper]

Thanks guys! Vipe, that was nice of you to help that guy get his settled. You're a good egg my friend :)

Thanks, Lauren. These guys are my "comrades in arms". We share the same passion and we help each other out where we can and sometimes, friendship is enough reward. We give each other used parts all the time. One fellow is a woodworker and he's provided me with countless custom made plane firewalls, support structures and other plane parts. I've installed 4 of these electronic modules for others. I have them in 5 of my own planes.

[KJD]

Guys & Gals, I freely admit that this is a bit of a pile on! I'm sorry, but this is not aimed at anyone here on the forum, rather a targeted look at marketing hype (AKA Horizon).

I ran the numbers on my antiquated 10 year old design with the numbers from my 7 year old model. Per the sale fliers the Cularis has a wing area of 55dm^2 and my ship has a mass of 1750 grams (852 inches^2 and 61.7 oz) The Radian XL 946.5 inches^2 and a weight of 79.6 oz.

By my maths the Cularis has a wing loading of 10.44 oz/ft^2 with a 3 cell TP2700 mAh
and the Radian XL has a wing loading of 12.10 oz/ft^2 assuming a 3 cell E-flite 3200 mAh

No wonder the out dated Cularis has so much better hang time than the Radian XL. Its wing loading is 4/5 that of the Radian XL! No scale effect as both are close to the same size at 2.6 meters.

Now for power my geriatric Cularis has an E-flite Power 15 driving a Graupner 13x7 at a measured 43 amps (after a 10 second motor/battery burn).

E@CAlC predicts power to the prop as being 340 watts (79% efficiency), and a power to weight of 1.2:1 for a max climb rate of 1326 ft per minute. (Note I am drawing more than the rated power form the motor. But as this is a glider the motor will be used an a Limited Motor Run event {15 second}. Motor temps are well below the critical 80°C (180°f) for the e-flite Power 15)

Per the preceding discussion the main advantage of the Radian XL is in the simplicity of the radio programing.

Now what the numbers don't show is how well the wing recovers from a stall (airfoil performance) Nether OEM is advertising what airfoil they are using. So some hands on flying is in order. I will say that coring out a thermal it looked like the Cularis took a bit longer for the air to reattach. (This could be because I had the flaps down for more camber). By the numbers I should have, with the Cularis, beat the Radian XL I was flying man on man by a much wider margin.

It is looking like, if you want an upgrade from the great old 2 meter Radian, its big brother the RXL really isn't it. Yes, the RXL benefits from the added mass, but this added mass is also its weak point.

The 2 year old Multiplex Heron looks to be the king apparent in the larger foamy gliders. True the Heron kit will take a few evenings to build. But it is looking like it is well worth the effort compared to just opening up the box of the Radian XL, if the antiquated Cularis is any guide.

To show that the performance isn't a fluke my other Cularis has a Hyperian GS3014-16 driving a Graupner 13.5x8 prop, climbs just as well even with the loss of 2 amps. FYI; If modeling the Multiplex gliders with the OEM spinner add 19mm to the prop diameter.

I'd like to thank xviper2 and Flygirl for helping me analyze the true Radian XL from the hype.

P.S.
Multiplex usually measures wing area by the FAI method (wing and stab). So the wing loading really is closer to 11 oz/ft^2. This still gives the old Cularis a 10% or so advantage in wing loading.

[KJD]

In post #12 and #20 I seem to have nailed it. There is a manufacturing issue with the tail boom of the E-Flite Radian XL. (See attached) It looks like Horizon is falling short of great customer support. The Radian XL is marketed to the PNP/ BNF crowd. They have paid a premium for this simple glider, not to have to "build" it. To have this kind of customer have to rework their glider so as to maintain the warranty is ridiculous! I commend E-Fite for issuing the SB but they have fallen far short of great customer service.

They need to issue a revision to these SB's. There should be a "Buy Back Program" for the Fuselage. To expect the target customer to perform this kind of rework is not realistic. There is far too great a risk that the repair will fail as a result of control binding (glued push rods from the over flow of CA)!

There also needs to be a Customer support program issued (mentioned) Like a $30 coupon for the cost of the glue and the loss of product value from the marred components as a result of the repair (most likely will not look like new). And compensation for the customer' times, for those that do perform the repair.

[KJD]

The ROC Hobby V-tail, the FMS Fox while they are smaller 2.2 to 2.3 meter are both looking to be much better "gliders" and have good value (twice as many servos) for 10% less street price. I wonder why Horizon isn't marketing these two gliders, too much competition for their own in house brands! This is actually a bit odd as Horizon is the exclusive importer of these brands in North America

https://www.motionrc.com/collections/gliders/products/rochobby-v-tail-glider-5ch-2200mm-87-wingspan-pnp

https://www.motionrc.com/collections/gliders/products/fms-fox-glider-v2-2320mm-91-wingspan-pnp

And then there is what is becoming my favorite "Large Foamy Glider" after the Cularis, the Multiplex Heron!

http://hitecrcd.com/products/airplanes/multiplex/gliders/multiplex-heron/product

[xviper]

"TSB's" or Technical Service Bulletins in the car industry does NOT include a "buy back" option. TSBs are for products that "might" have a problem which the customer can, if he/she wishes, return the vehicle for repair or for checking. This is an under $200.00 BNF model airplane. You're dreaming if you think HH is going to do a "buy back" on a cheap toy or reimburse people for their glue and whatever few minutes it takes to implement the "fix".
OK, KJD, not wanting to sound mean or impolite, but this has gone on ad nauseum. It seems to me that you are trying too hard to justify NOT buying this plane. All your calculating and the digging up of posts that have already been posted on this forum and all over the internet (SB) isn't going to create mass rejection of this plane. If you don't want it, don't buy it. There are many who have bought it and almost as many who like it, even love it, in spite of all it's so-called "deficiencies". There is so much more to buying and loving a product beyond calculations, wing loadings, weaknesses (remember the K car?). You can't quantify or qualify aesthetics, desire, curiosity for a new product. Many don't care if it doesn't compare to the original Radian. They don't care that it won't glide as well as some other sailplanes. They don't care that's it's too heavy or too ugly. They don't care if it's under powered. They'll buy it anyway and deal with that later. They don't care if it won't do well in ALES competition. 95% of sailplane owners don't do that. But, they just want it.
HH just markets this product and they make it look as good as they can. That's their job. They didn't create the "hype" any more than any company does for any new product, be it a toy model or a car. It was and continues to be the clientelle that creates and propagates this "hype". Don't blame HH. In the "other" forum, there is currently an ongoing battle between Tundra fanboys and Timber fanboys. I'm not a fanboy of any kind. I like and dislike products from different manufacturers and I don't feel the need to constantly try to convince others how bad something is just so I can feel good about my decision to NOT buy it. In the same token, I don't have to put a product up on a shrine to make myself feel good about having bought it.
The bottom line is, you don't have to work so hard to dissuade others from buying the XL. We know you don't like it. We know you won't buy it. You can feel perfectly at ease in your own conscience and justified to NOT buy it. Are you even in the market for another sailplane? If you are, then just get one of the others you've point out. If you aren't, I'm afraid your point of all this just eludes me. It's OK, I won't buy the RocHobby V-tail thing because it's just not my kind of plane. I don't care that it might be a better product. I've had the Fox Glider. I didn't like it. I thought it was garbage. I gave it away. However, the next guy does like it, but maybe it's only because I gave it to him free. Funny he hardly flies it. My buddy with the Cularis. He dosn't like it nearly as much as we like our XLs. Again, it's OK. Different strokes for different folks. You don't have to try anymore to convince us that the XL is a terrible plane. They will still be purchased and they will still be liked.
I know what will make you feel good. Start a new thread and talk about how great your Cularis is, without further mention of how bad you think the XL is and why people shouldn't buy it. Thank You.

[KJD]

I do care about most of what you don't care about!

This is about me wanting to know what is out there. It is also about me questioning sales Hype. I posted my own thread to keep this kind of reaction to "Just the facts mama" out of the love fest threads! I've never said don't buy the Radian XL. I have said I want to actually fly one for myself.

I'm not working "so hard" to disprove marketing it is surprisingly easy to do by just holding up the facts. In this case the Radian is not a "Hanger" it is a lead sled at 80 oz. and at that weight it will beak up very early in its life cycle. It is you that have a problem with me showing the limits (deficiencies) of the product. I'm not trying to change those who's minds are made up. I'm just bringing to light the facts as they apply to the larger 2.6 meter glider.

I too don't see any foamy as a competition glider. Where did that come from? Yes, I want a glider (modern glider) to perform and perform better that those of old, like the Hobby Shack Spirit 76, Goldberg Electra , etc.

If you don't want to see the deficiencies, and maybe even some strength, of the 2.6meter glider please don't look at this thread.

I too like HH, a lot! I have a shout out to them here, great customer support. But in the case of the SB it is lacking for the intended customer (my opinion).
http://www.hobbysquawk.com/forum/rc-...bies-thumbs-up

In my industry aviation, there are Customer Support Programs for SB even more so for those that have FAA AD's attached (flight worthy issues).

What digging? My experience with the Radian XL is from that MAN on MAN flight. My own analysis, flawed as it might be.

"TSB's" or Technical Service Bulletins in the car industry does NOT include a "buy back" option. TSBs are for products that "might" have a problem which the customer can, if he/she wishes, return the vehicle for repair or for checking. This is an under $200.00 BNF model airplane. You're dreaming if you think HH is going to do a "buy back" on a cheap toy or reimburse people for their glue and whatever few minutes it takes to implement the "fix".
OK, KJD, not wanting to sound mean or impolite, but this has gone on ad nauseum. It seems to me that you are trying too hard to justify NOT buying this plane. All your calculating and the digging up of posts that have already been posted on this forum and all over the internet (SB) isn't going to create mass rejection of this plane. If you don't want it, don't buy it. There are many who have bought it and almost as many who like it, even love it, in spite of all it's so-called "deficiencies". There is so much more to buying and loving a product beyond calculations, wing loadings, weaknesses (remember the K car?). You can't quantify or qualify aesthetics, desire, curiosity for a new product. Many don't care if it doesn't compare to the original Radian. They don't care that it won't glide as well as some other sailplanes. They don't care that's it's too heavy or too ugly. They don't care if it's under powered. They'll buy it anyway and deal with that later. They don't care if it won't do well in ALES competition. 95% of sailplane owners don't do that. But, they just want it.
HH just markets this product and they make it look as good as they can. That's their job. They didn't create the "hype" any more than any company does for any new product, be it a toy model or a car. It was and continues to be the clientelle that creates and propagates this "hype". Don't blame HH. In the "other" forum, there is currently an ongoing battle between Tundra fanboys and Timber fanboys. I'm not a fanboy of any kind. I like and dislike products from different manufacturers and I don't feel the need to constantly try to convince others how bad something is just so I can feel good about my decision to NOT buy it. In the same token, I don't have to put a product up on a shrine to make myself feel good about having bought it.
The bottom line is, you don't have to work so hard to dissuade others from buying the XL. We know you don't like it. We know you won't buy it. You can feel perfectly at ease in your own conscience and justified to NOT buy it. Are you even in the market for another sailplane? If you are, then just get one of the others you've point out. If you aren't, I'm afraid your point of all this just eludes me. It's OK, I won't buy the RocHobby V-tail thing because it's just not my kind of plane. I don't care that it might be a better product. I've had the Fox Glider. I didn't like it. I thought it was garbage. I gave it away. However, the next guy does like it, but maybe it's only because I gave it to him free. Funny he hardly flies it. My buddy with the Cularis. He dosn't like it nearly as much as we like our XLs. Again, it's OK. Different strokes for different folks. You don't have to try anymore to convince us that the XL is a terrible plane. They will still be purchased and they will still be liked.
I know what will make you feel good. Start a new thread and talk about how great your Cularis is, without further mention of how bad you think the XL is and why people shouldn't buy it. Thank You.

[xviper]

I do care about most of what you don't care about!

This is about me wanting to know what is out there. It is also about me questioning sales Hype. I posted my own thread to keep this kind of reaction to "Just the facts mama" out of the love fest threads! I've never said don't buy the Radian XL. I have said I want to actually fly one for myself.

I'm not working "so hard" to disprove marketing it is surprisingly easy to do by just holding up the facts. In this case the Radian is not a "Hanger" it is a lead sled at 80 oz. and at that weight it will beak up very early in its life cycle. It is you that have a problem with me showing the limits (deficiencies) of the product. I'm not trying to change those who's minds are made up. I'm just bringing to light the facts as they apply to the larger 2.6 meter glider.

I too don't see any foamy as a competition glider. Where did that come from? Yes, I want a glider (modern glider) to perform and perform better that those of old, like the Hobby Shack Spirit 76, Goldberg Electra , etc.

If you don't want to see the deficiencies, and maybe even some strength, of the 2.6meter glider please don't look at this thread.

I too like HH, a lot! I have a shout out to them here, great customer support. But in the case of the SB it is lacking for the intended customer (my opinion).
http://www.hobbysquawk.com/forum/rc-...bies-thumbs-up

In my industry aviation, there are Customer Support Programs for SB even more so for those that have FAA AD's attached (flight worthy issues).

What digging? My experience with the Radian XL is from that MAN on MAN flight. My own analysis, flawed as it might be.

1. Marketing is ALL sales hype. That's what they do. Why does that surprise you? The rest of the hype is NOT from the company.
2. The repetitious nature of your rants about how bad the XL is, is like beating a dead horse and as such, is "working hard". You're simply pressing your opinion of how bad the XL is and hardly anything to do with what else is out there. Besides, you already know what's out there. Why did you ask? Hidden agenda?
3. Showing the limits is fine, but showing it again and again and again is unbecoming. We all know the deficiencies. You only have to tell it once.
4. It's not that I don't want to see the deficiencies. We all know what they are. I think seeing it repeatedly from one guy is a bit much and it plays out like you have some other agenda.
5. You are right. I don't want to see the repetition anymore. I am unsubscribing as soon as I finish this post.
6. I have yet to put anyone on this forum on the "IGNORE" list. Perhaps there's a first for everything. I'll wait and see in your other threads if you've taken a moment to step back a bit and read the stuff you've posted. Can you see what's repetitive and irritating? That horse has been dead a long while ago.

[KJD]

Point 1
Agreed. Marketing is hype and has little to do with objective analysis.

Point 2
I see little that is repetitious in the nature of my "rants" about how bad the XL is. I define what I'm looking for in a "good glider" and that would be legs. You and many others think wing loading "hang". We discussed these philosophies a bit. We covered depth perception, the radian pro's limits, the RES definition. To my way of looking we covered a lot of subject matter. And at the same time did a deep down look the soaring ability of the RXL against other foamy gliders in the same size and price class.
No, I don't "Know" what is out there, as I haven't flow a RXL. I really only know about the RXL from the sales hype and that one MAN oN MAN flight

Point 3
I admit that in post #33 it was a bit of a pile on. But this was a rephrasing of the earlier arguments (positions) but with the use of numbers to show that the Radian XL was a dud by your measure wing loading (hang time). And that the other 2.6 meter foamy glider the Cularis actually has a lighter wing loading while having the advantages of being a more complicated glider. I showed this (well tried to) with the man on man flight. I think most RXL customer would be shocked to learn that properly set up (radio program) the Cularis and Heron's will out hang the Radian XL. I try to show this analytically with wing loading and empirically with the man on man flight.

Point 4
We (I don't think it was just I) covered the poor motor mounting in all these (yes even the great Cularis) foamy gliders. We covered the poor tail booms of most foamy gliders ( subsequently validated by the SB). And weight was mentioned but not quantified until post #33.

As to one guy it is a sad fact that Hobby Squawk has a very limited user base. I thanked both you and 'Flygirl' for discussing the issues with me. I for one like to look at things from various angles. So I'm sorry you think this is an agenda or vendetta when each time the conclusion is less than favorable to your position. The Radian Xl has been shown to have limited features (we knew this as she is an RES ship). What honestly surprised me was that as an RES ship she doesn't hang as well as the other 6 servo 2.6 m foamy glider, the Cularis.

You quickly figured out that I was not going to agree that the RadianXL had any ventures over the other foamy gliders just because it was new. I can only assume that you made an honest mistake when you compared the RXL against the 2m Radian and not the other larger foamy gliders. And then discounted my inquiries early on saying that I had made up my mind. Not true, I clearly stated that I (yes even I) have been known to be in error in my first assessment of foamy gliders.

This is how I learn breaking things down and looking at them in detail. I will say that looking at the points put forward the saving grace of the Radian Xl is in the ease of programing. I fear that is more a damnation of the radios than a virtue of the airframe. True the weight has all but killed the notion that the Radian XL will ever be in my fleet. But until I actually fly one and can compare it to my other properly setup and trimmed gliders in the same glass I will keep an open mind. After all I've been proven wrong with the Cularis and Calypso.

You made a poor argument when you said the Cularis had been drop as it was outdated (poor sales). No, Multiplex took the advantage to improve a product (the large foamy glider) with the new models. Like Steve Jobs said "Don't be afraid to make you own product obsolete. If you don't somebody else will!"

Point 5 Sorry to see you go.

Point 6 I'm honored to be the first. BTW I love your avatar!

P.S.
The only real repetitive thing I've noticed in my post history is that I made 3 SB post. The first questioned motion RC about putting a link on their sales page for the RXL to these SB. Second I posted the SB's here in my 2.6m class foamy thread. And third I started a thread to discuss the nature of those SB's as it pertains to customer service and expectations.

[CUMICBOY]

I LOVE MY RXL-EVEN W/THE AXI LONG SHAFT MOTOR UPGRADE-IT STILL HANGS IN DECENT AIR!