Red or blue motors

[keilau]

You need to peen the end connectors. It’s not hard it is just time consuming. Mato Pershing, Abrams and Leopard 2 dual pin tracks are well known to have loose end connectors and why most of us that have been in the hobby a while don’t recommend them to those new to tanks.

The best tracks made for the Pershing are Tamiya and Kenny Kong / IMPACT tracks. They run about $85 a set.

HL Leopard 2 tracks are single pin and not correct as the real tracks are dual pin with end connectors. DKLM and Tamiya make Leopard 2 tracks that put the stock metal HL tracks to shame and are about the same price.

Rubicon99, I really appreciate your information. I have completely forgot about Kenny Kong. How do I get hold of him?

Every time before I used the Mato track, I inspect each pin and seat them properly. But it does not help much. I have to admit that Mato made a very good looking track. For now, I am back to the plastic track. I am thinking using the plastic endcap on the Mato track. What do you think?

I did not notice that the HL metal track is a one pin design. You are right and it looks terrible in detail appearance, but it seems to function ok. I will add this to the borderline crap list.

[Rubicon99]

I suggested Mato tanks because they have different tranny style of mounting than Henglong which you don’t like. They are the only ones that are a bit different other than Tamiya. I have owned a few Mato Sherman’s of the early run and have my reasons for not wanting to own them again but not for anything regarding issues you have raised. Also, most mato metal tracks need to be run on mato metal sprockets. Pershing and Sherman fall into this category..
And yes, lots of brands of after market track come loose as they break in. Rubicon mentioned the solution we commonly use.

Please take a second to consider that some of us have been in this hobby for many years and have serviced and or built many tanks.
I for example, have owned every single rc Sherman produced in 1/16 scale, and purchased nearly every single aftermarket track, detail bit, accessory, body hull kit, turret upgrade kit etc etc that has been made by every small manufacturer out there that relates to a Sherman tank.

Rich is heavily understating his experience! His tanks are simply works of art that belong in museums, yet he drives them like he stole them. Heck even when I have questions I run them by Rich. If Rich says it’s good, it usually IS. If he says it’s not, well it usually isn’t.

[RichJohnson]

I suggested Mato tanks because they have different tranny style of mounting than Henglong which you don’t like. They are the only ones that are a bit different other than Tamiya. I have owned a few Mato Sherman’s of the early run and have my reasons for not wanting to own them again but not for anything regarding issues you have raised. Also, most mato metal tracks need to be run on mato metal sprockets. Pershing and Sherman fall into this category..
And yes, lots of brands of after market track come loose as they break in. Rubicon mentioned the solution we commonly use.

Please take a second to consider that some of us have been in this hobby for many years and have serviced and or built many tanks.
I for example, have owned every single rc Sherman produced in 1/16 scale, and purchased nearly every single aftermarket track, detail bit, accessory, body hull kit, turret upgrade kit etc etc that has been made by every small manufacturer out there that relates to a Sherman tank.

[Rubicon99]

For anyone who considers Mato to be quality parts, I refer you to the "High End Castings" thread, post #19 to 23. I expect to have to do that when using Mato cast parts.

I have comment on the quality of Mato metal track too. Consider this to be "inexperienced" because it is based on one single sample of Mato track and one Heng Long metal track.

I have been trying to get the Mato metal track to work on my HL M26 Pershing 3838 without any success. After 5-10 minutes' run, it de-track badly and I will start to search the floor for fall-off or broken endcaps.

Most of the time, the endcap just fell off intact. But there are enough incidents that the endcap fell off broken. I finally have to stop trying after used up most of the spare endcaps. If you have a contact at Mato, I would like to contact them to see what I can do.

By comparison, the HL metal track that came with my German Leopard 2A6 3889-1 still works fine after a month. I should be testing it on the new gearbox soon, see Post #49 above.

You need to peen the end connectors. It’s not hard it is just time consuming. Mato Pershing, Abrams and Leopard 2 dual pin tracks are well known to have loose end connectors and why most of us that have been in the hobby a while don’t recommend them to those new to tanks.

The best tracks made for the Pershing are Tamiya and Kenny Kong / IMPACT tracks. They run about $85 a set.

HL Leopard 2 tracks are single pin and not correct as the real tracks are dual pin with end connectors. DKLM and Tamiya make Leopard 2 tracks that put the stock metal HL tracks to shame and are about the same price.

[keilau]

Just about everything else has changed on the HL tank except the transmission mounts, probably because they work just fine if you dont over tighten the screw and strip them out.
I have not stripped a Henglong transmission mount but I had a used tiagen all metal sherman chassis that some of the screws were stripped out. Same kinda mount. I just drilled them and put a hex 2/50 bolt and nut on the stripped out holes.

If you want better than this design, which nearly everyone uses on their products, you could try Mato, or even better Tamiya. Tamiya tanks are kits, that you build like an RC car and a plastic model.

Rubicon has been around this hobby for a long time, with all sorts of tanks. He has shown us how to knock them and upgrade them for excellent performance beyond what was expected.

For anyone who considers Mato to be quality parts, I refer you to the "High End Castings" thread, post #19 to 23. I expect to have to do that when using Mato cast parts.

I have comment on the quality of Mato metal track too. Consider this to be "inexperienced" because it is based on one single sample of Mato track and one Heng Long metal track.

I have been trying to get the Mato metal track to work on my HL M26 Pershing 3838 without any success. After 5-10 minutes' run, it de-track badly and I will start to search the floor for fall-off or broken endcaps.

Most of the time, the endcap just fell off intact. But there are enough incidents that the endcap fell off broken. I finally have to stop trying after used up most of the spare endcaps. If you have a contact at Mato, I would like to contact them to see what I can do.

By comparison, the HL metal track that came with my German Leopard 2A6 3889-1 still works fine after a month. I should be testing it on the new gearbox soon, see Post #49 above.

[RichJohnson]

Just about everything else has changed on the HL tank except the transmission mounts, probably because they work just fine if you dont over tighten the screw and strip them out.
I have not stripped a Henglong transmission mount but I had a used tiagen all metal sherman chassis that some of the screws were stripped out. Same kinda mount. I just drilled them and put a hex 2/50 bolt and nut on the stripped out holes.

If you want better than this design, which nearly everyone uses on their products, you could try Mato, or even better Tamiya. Tamiya tanks are kits, that you build like an RC car and a plastic model.

Rubicon has been around this hobby for a long time, with all sorts of tanks. He has shown us how to knock them and upgrade them for excellent performance beyond what was expected.

[keilau]

I have TOTALLY disagree with you about the gearbox mounting not being sturdy. I am well known in the tank hobby for beating the living SH** out of HL tanks and I have NEVER ONCE had a gearbox mount fail!!! To say that they have issues just shows your inexperience with them.

Also comparing 15+ year old HL tanks (which admittedly at the time were junk) to those being produced today and somehow insinuating the quality is the same is frankly just an unfair comparison.

The new 6.0-7.0 tanks are hands down far superior to their earlier counter parts in fit quality, durability, performance and far better then the typical Tamiya tank in handling, durability and overall proportional control. I own a dozen Tamiya tanks with MFU/DMDs ranging from the T1 to T11 and none equal the ease of driving and proportional control of the basic HL 6.0 system.

You need to spend a little more time with the new generation of HL tanks and stop basing your option on 15 year old product quality. Today’s HL tanks are not what they used to be and are fast becoming the industrial leader. They are not perfect, but dollars for dollar you get more out of them then with a Tamiya tank that cost three time as much.

Yes, my experience with 2021 Heng Long tank is based on the the sample of ONE, a German Leopard 2A6. You are justified to call me "inexperienced".
https://www.ebay.com/itm/26509225027...p2047675.l2557

The gearbox mounting of this 2021 tank is identical to my 2005 Pershing, with 3 self tapping screws (M3 size) and 2 index tab on elevated post off the tank floor. I will not call this "sturdy". The 2021 leopard comes with a steel gearbox, It is the normal (no ball bearing) version of HL gearbox. It is identical to the Pershing gearbox too. You can see that I can use these 2021 gearbox on the Pershing with no problem too. See picture in Post #49.

Rubicon99, I mean no disrespect to you. You cannot use the label "inexperience" without showing or describing how Heng Long had improved or changed their gearbox mounting in the last 17 years. You seem to look down on effort which try to improve the RTR tanks from Heng Long. BTW, I consider the Heng Xin all ball bearing gearbox to be a world ahead of the HL steel gearbox too.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/265006496603

I do not regret how I called some (not all) of the HL OEM components. I call it as I see it based on the experience on only 4 Heng Long tanks, 3 of which are more than 10 years old and one recent purchase.

[Rubicon99]

Yes, I like my HL tank. They are affordable. But I must say that they are borderline crap. For example, the mounting of the gearbox is NOT sturdy at all. I got the Tiger I in 2004 and the M26 Pershing in 2005. The motor was so weak that it is a living room only tank. Take it outdoor and put it on the lawn, it cannot move on grass. There is a lot of fun upgrading it. Now it can run outdoor, it is fun. Over the year, the electronic improved the most. The latest TK-6.0S RC with good enough proportional control to make driving fun.

I have TOTALLY disagree with you about the gearbox mounting not being sturdy. I am well known in the tank hobby for beating the living SH** out of HL tanks and I have NEVER ONCE had a gearbox mount fail!!! To say that they have issues just shows your inexperience with them.

Also comparing 15+ year old HL tanks (which admittedly at the time were junk) to those being produced today and somehow insinuating the quality is the same is frankly just an unfair comparison.

The new 6.0-7.0 tanks are hands down far superior to their earlier counter parts in fit quality, durability, performance and far better then the typical Tamiya tank in handling, durability and overall proportional control. I own a dozen Tamiya tanks with MFU/DMDs ranging from the T1 to T11 and none equal the ease of driving and proportional control of the basic HL 6.0 system.

You need to spend a little more time with the new generation of HL tanks and stop basing your option on 15 year old product quality. Today’s HL tanks are not what they used to be and are fast becoming the industrial leader. They are not perfect, but dollars for dollar you get more out of them then with a Tamiya tank that cost three time as much.

[keilau]

I just received my gearbox for the 2005 HL Pershing from e-bay seller, build-for-you, today. Will be working on it the next few days and report my result at the Pershing thread.

I also got some 380/390 heatsink with fan. But I will have to see if they can fit. If no space for the heatsink, I will remove the smoke generator and put a 40mm fan there instead.

Alas, NO Heng Xin gearbox with red motor for M26 Pershing. The Heng Xin has a far sturdier mounting system than original HL and, in most case, is much easier. It requires a 2 dimensional movement of down and out. There is not enough room in the Pershing for the Heng Xin gearbox with red motor! After trying for 2 days, I gave up and took the Heng Xin gearbox to my brand new German Leopard 2A6. It works much, much better than the HL stock gearbox/motor combo.

I use a pair of Mxfans 390 instead of the red motor. For all practical purpose, these 390 motor are interchangeable.

I replaced the stock grey 380 motor on the OEM steel gearbox from the Leopard with the red motors and mounted it on the Pershing. It went in easily. I am also upgrading the Pershing to 6.0 electronics for better driving quality. I have purchased a second Heng Xin gearbox which, I think, can be used on the Pershing with the blue motor. When I am all done, I will post to the Pershing thread.

An other option of all bearing gearbox with red motor for the M26 Pershing is the HL Ultimate II gearbox.

[keilau]

Do you like your HL tanks? I do mine. If yes, they’re not crap, they’re fun!

Yes, I like my HL tank. They are affordable. But I must say that they are borderline crap. For example, the mounting of the gearbox is NOT sturdy at all. I got the Tiger I in 2004 and the M26 Pershing in 2005. The motor was so weak that it is a living room only tank. Take it outdoor and put it on the lawn, it cannot move on grass. There is a lot of fun upgrading it. Now it can run outdoor, it is fun. Over the year, the electronic improved the most. The latest TK-6.0S RC with good enough proportional control to make driving fun.

[SoCalBobS]

Do you like your HL tanks? I do mine. If yes, they’re not crap, they’re fun!

[keilau]

I think these guys here on this forum have outlined quite well the better ways to upgrade a tank and some things not to do by experience. Especially Rubicon.

What your doing with the motor testing is interesting, but not necessary.

My main objective is to evaluate the claim that "used to be reliable supplier" may be selling "fake" red motor. I purchased one HL tank and 2 upgrade gearbox from this seller (with total of 4 red motors) this year and found them to be honest. The blue and red motor being a knockoff of the Mabuchi motor with unknown source(s), my suggestion is to test individual motor before installation to avoid the situation that ZipperSnapper was in (Post #28). A burnt motor in the HL tank can have collateral damage. Your choice.

[RichJohnson]

I think these guys here on this forum have outlined quite well the better ways to upgrade a tank and some things not to do by experience. Especially Rubicon.

What your doing with the motor testing is interesting, but not necessary.

[keilau]

I have shown that even the HL grey 380 is capable of driving a normal version steel gearbox and metal track on the Leopard 2A6. But the temperature rises is too high in my judgement. I expect the HL blue motor to do much better. I am a hobbyist and an engineer, my interest is not on the question of blue or red. I want to help my fellow hobbyist to find out:

1. How to detect a defective motor before it does more serious damage to the tank.
2. What is the limit of generally available motors when used to drive a HL tank.

I remember the early days of HL (around 2004) when the Tiger 1 is a living room only RC tank with a pair of very weak SunTech 3x0 motors. Take it outside to the lawn, it can hardly move. I still have a Tiger 1 using a pair of RS540 motors and worm gear drive (a expensive mod). HL has come a long way. The current generation of drive gear and electronics are quiet capable and good value for the money. Using proper components and detect defective parts early, it is generally no longer a concern about damaging the HL tank. The 380/390 motor are very safe to use on the HL tank unless the motor is stalled (such as the tank gets stuck) and the user keeps pushing the stick.

It would be nice for technically knowledgeable fellow tankers to set some boundary on what not to do.

[Rubicon99]

HL uses ABS plastic to mold the frame/hull of their RC tanks. ABS has very good strength as slightly elevated temperature. One of the test I plan is to use a 3S Lithium battery (11.1 volt nominal) with a Mabuchi RS-380PH-3270 motor which is rated for up to 15 volts DC. But I will not call that a "high voltage battery". But it never hurt to be careful.

“Plastic” is a general term I use to describe the hull material. For the sake of this topic/thread it is irrelevant if it is polystyrene or ABS. Fact is 390 motors can get hot enough to melt the surrounding hull material on some tanks when voltage and high loads to them goes much past 8.4 for prolonged periods.

“High” voltage is also generally term as it relates to the max % of voltage the basic HL 6.0S/7.0 MFU and the amount of voltage one can put into the MFU to power the motors. The systems have a max voltage rating of 12.6v (=11v 3cell Lipo battery at full charge) and an proximate *amp draw max of 10 per motor. The systems although rated for 12.6 volts WILL overheat rather quickly much over 9.6v (~76% of max voltage) when running 390 motor with heavy loads placed on them. I have a dozen burned up systems to illustrate this.

*Informational note: 6.0/7.0 MFUs have amp load/draw limits of ~10amps (6.1S limit is15 amps) per motor. Exceeding the amp draw limit causes rapid heating of the MFUs and at best a shut down or at worst a burn out. Easy to do at +9.6 volts with 390 motors.

Don’t take this wrong, but I feel you may be way overthinking the motor issues given the general simplicity of HL tanks and the ease of swapping out parts. Motors are cheap, they burn up, wear out and some work slightly better then others.

Now if buying and testing every motor to find that slim performance margin or confirm its ratings is your thing, by all means have at it. Maybe even start a stand alone thread about your motor testing as this thread is getting “long in the tooth” and a bit muddied with off shoot topics which do little to help those looking for a quick easy answer to the Red or Blue question.

[keilau]

By plastic I meant the hull “plastic” not plastic in the motors. Many documented case of the radiant motor heat caused by high voltage battery use melting the surrounding plastic parts of the tanks hull. But good to know the information you provide about the motor fan material though.

HL uses ABS plastic to mold the frame/hull of their RC tanks. ABS has very good strength as slightly elevated temperature. One of the test I plan is to use a 3S Lithium battery (11.1 volt nominal) with a Mabuchi RS-380PH-3270 motor which is rated for up to 15 volts DC. But I will not call that a "high voltage battery". But it never hurt to be careful.

[Rubicon99]

I prefer Lithium Ion battery for their high energy density and longer constant voltage period. They are also safer than soft pad LiPo. I use a SkyRC iMAX B6 Mini charget which cuts off charging any Lithium battery at 8.2 volts, not 8.4 for longer battery life. For most of the test this time, the battery pack was between 7.9-8.0 volts which happened to be at that value. I have one EBL pack with 4A continuous and 8A peak. Another pack uses Orbtronic cells which are 10A continuous and 15A peak. Either one meet the RC tank motor need with plenty to spare. Unlike the NiMH, the LiIo does not drop in voltage very fast. The packs are 5 Ah and 6 Ah respectively. An one hour test did not draw them down much.

I did the test on a M26 Pershing 3838 with plastic track first. I repeated the test on the Leopard with metal track. No major difference in the temperature results.

I do not expect cheap DC motor to use high temperature thermoplastic like nylon or polycarbonate. But it cannot use low melting temperature plastic, Today, we have microwave tolerant plastic which are quiet cheap and has good temperature capacity. I expect low end DC motor to use similar plastic for the fan and closure. "The only sure way to get a good motor is to test each and every motor purchased before use."

Thank you.

By plastic I meant the hull “plastic” not plastic in the motors. Many documented case of the radiant motor heat caused by high voltage battery use melting the surrounding plastic parts of the tanks hull. But good to know the information you provide about the motor fan material though.

[keilau]

What voltage are you running the motors at? 7.2 from a NiMH, 7.4(8.4) from a Lipo? Also what is the amp rating of the batteries being used in the testing. High voltage above 8.4 and under loads is the usual cause of motors starting to run very hot. 8.4 and down and they stay reasonably cool and within the range that will not melt plastic or cause burns when touched.

Since 7.4v Lipos (8.4v peak) are becoming more popular with tanks and what come supplied from the factory, it would be advantageous to use 8.4v as the test medium.

I look forward to reading more of your test results, good information so far👍👍

I prefer Lithium Ion battery for their high energy density and longer constant voltage period. They are also safer than soft pad LiPo. I use a SkyRC iMAX B6 Mini charget which cuts off charging any Lithium battery at 8.2 volts, not 8.4 for longer battery life. For most of the test this time, the battery pack was between 7.9-8.0 volts which happened to be at that value. I have one EBL pack with 4A continuous and 8A peak. Another pack uses Orbtronic cells which are 10A continuous and 15A peak. Either one meet the RC tank motor need with plenty to spare. Unlike the NiMH, the LiIo does not drop in voltage very fast. The packs are 5 Ah and 6 Ah respectively. An one hour test did not draw them down much.

I did the test on a M26 Pershing 3838 with plastic track first. I repeated the test on the Leopard with metal track. No major difference in the temperature results.

I do not expect cheap DC motor to use high temperature thermoplastic like nylon or polycarbonate. But it cannot use low melting temperature plastic, Today, we have microwave tolerant plastic which are quiet cheap and has good temperature capacity. I expect low end DC motor to use similar plastic for the fan and closure. "The only sure way to get a good motor is to test each and every motor purchased before use."

Thank you.

[Rubicon99]

I did a little test on my own. I ran 3 different motors on the HL German Leopard2A6 Metal Version that I purchased last month. I monitored the motor case temperature until it stabilized. The motors are:

1. HL grey 380 that came with the Leopard RC tank.
2. Red 390 motor that came with the Heng Xin all ball bearing gearbox (See post #23 and #24)
3. MxFans 390 motor purchased at Amazon.

The red motor from Heng Xin performs very well. The case temperature rises less than 20°F above ambient and stabilizes in less than 15 minutes. It shows a well balanced motor with low friction bearings. It is an excellent motor. The HL grey 380 has enough torque to drive the metal gearbox and track, but it is a very poor performer in term of temperature rises and noise. The 380 runs at 15,000 rpm with a track rpm of 41. Both of the 390 motor run at 25,000 rpm with track rpm of 75.

When purchasing a red motor from a reliable source, it should work well most of the time. However, a knock-off is a knock-off. When I searched for name brand (small RC car marketer) 390 motor, I noticed that all of them have a 15-20% complaint of motor burnt off in 5-10 minutes. The only sure way to get a good motor is to test each and every motor purchased before use. If any motor shows fast and excessive case temperature rises, turn it off. Ask the seller for an exchange or refund immediately.

Henglong never told us what are the motor that they used on the HL RC tanks. They have 3 models that some of the seller call grey 380 blue 380 and red 390. From the physical dimension, (the M2.6 mounting screw at 1.6 mm apart and the 2.3 mm shaft) convinced me that they are Mabuchi Motor 300 series knock-offs. HL never tell us what these motors are. From measurement, we know that the 380's runs at 15,000 rpm and the 390's at 25,000 rpm. The OEM gearbox has a 39:1 ratio.

I searched at the Mabuchi Motor website, I found 2 catalogue models of the Mabuchi RS-380PH motors. The -4045 has a 6-12 volts range and runs at 15,000 rpm with 7.2 volts input. The -3270 is rated for 6-15 volts, but runs at lower rpm. Mabuchi has a RS-380SH for 6 volts at higher rpm, but it is for customer manufacture only, no detail technical data in catalogue.

There is NO 390 motor reference at the Mabuchi site. It seems that the 390 motor is a third party derivative of the Mabuchi.

I have several of RS-380 on order from e-bay. Several claim to be Mabuchi and show the engraved Mabuchi logo. I will be doing more test in the next few weeks.

What voltage are you running the motors at? 7.2 from a NiMH, 7.4(8.4) from a Lipo? Also what is the amp rating of the batteries being used in the testing. High voltage above 8.4 and under loads is the usual cause of motors starting to run very hot. 8.4 and down and they stay reasonably cool and within the range that will not melt plastic or cause burns when touched.

Since 7.4v Lipos (8.4v peak) are becoming more popular with tanks and what come supplied from the factory, it would be advantageous to use 8.4v as the test medium.

I look forward to reading more of your test results, good information so far👍👍

[keilau]

I did a little test on my own. I ran 3 different motors on the HL German Leopard2A6 Metal Version that I purchased last month. I monitored the motor case temperature until it stabilized. The motors are:

1. HL grey 380 that came with the Leopard RC tank.
2. Red 390 motor that came with the Heng Xin all ball bearing gearbox (See post #23 and #24)
3. MxFans 390 motor purchased at Amazon.

The red motor from Heng Xin performs very well. The case temperature rises less than 20°F above ambient and stabilizes in less than 15 minutes. It shows a well balanced motor with low friction bearings. It is an excellent motor. The HL grey 380 has enough torque to drive the metal gearbox and track, but it is a very poor performer in term of temperature rises and noise. The 380 runs at 15,000 rpm with a track rpm of 41. Both of the 390 motor run at 25,000 rpm with track rpm of 75.

When purchasing a red motor from a reliable source, it should work well most of the time. However, a knock-off is a knock-off. When I searched for name brand (small RC car marketer) 390 motor, I noticed that all of them have a 15-20% complaint of motor burnt off in 5-10 minutes. Unless the motor seller does individual motor testing, the chance of getting an off-spec motor is very high. The motor burns off when the core is off balance and causes extra friction everywhere. The sure way to get a good motor is to test each and every motor purchased before use. If any motor shows fast and excessive case temperature rises or even grinding sound, turn it off. Ask the seller for an exchange or refund immediately.

Henglong never told us what are the motor that they used on the HL RC tanks. They have 3 models that some of the seller call grey 380 blue 380 and red 390. From the physical dimension, (the M2.6 mounting screw at 1.6 mm apart and the 2.3 mm shaft) convinced me that they are Mabuchi Motor 300 series knock-offs. HL never tell us what these motors are. From measurement, we know that the 380's runs at 15,000 rpm and the 390's at 25,000 rpm. The OEM gearbox has a 39:1 ratio.

I searched at the Mabuchi Motor website, I found 2 catalogue models of the Mabuchi RS-380PH motors. The -4045 has a 6-12 volts range and runs at 15,000 rpm with 7.2 volts input. The -3270 is rated for 6-15 volts, but runs at lower rpm. Mabuchi has a RS-380SH for 6 volts at higher rpm, but it is for customer manufacture only, no detail technical data in catalogue.

There is NO 390 motor reference at the Mabuchi site. It seems that the 390 motor is a third party derivative of the Mabuchi.

I have several of RS-380 on order from e-bay. Several claim to be Mabuchi and show the engraved Mabuchi logo. I will be doing more test in the next few weeks.