HELP!! With Roban 700 Apache Tail

[Aces]

Hello. So I have had some real issues with getting the tail to hold on this thing ever since purchase. I really need some help. I am using an Align BL800MX 520kv motor and a CC Edge 160HV esc. My gyro is the ikon 2 blue tooth edition. So the thing holds ok but the tail will drift slowly nose right. And if I dont manage the collective well (meaning have to punch the throttle a little it will turn 45 degrees on me. I am using the same flybarless unit for my Goblin 570 and it works fantastic. I am running basically 1100, 1200 and 1300 rpm. I even installed the tail gear upgrade to speed up the rpm of the tail.
After all this I figured that maybe my head speed just wasnt enough to give the tail the authority it needs. But I see others here like DCCORSAIR running 1250rpm and everything seems to be good. Everything else is stock. Blades, pinion etc.
Can someone please point me in the right direction. Here is a photos showing my current esc settings. Thank you in advance

[Aces]

Maybe it is my FBL settings? If I need to post some pics of that I can.

[PawPaw]

Aces, is your Ikon 2 BT oriented wires forward or wires to the rear? I have two of those Ikon 2 BTs and the one I have installed with wires to the front will slowly drift the tail servo to max deflection over a period of 1-1/2 to 2 minutes after power up…just sitting on the bench. The one with wires oriented to the rear does not do that. Check yours…just power it up on the bench, don’t touch the Tx, and see if the tail servo is drifting.

[Aces]

Hello PawPaw. Mine is actually oriented right now face up and wires to the right. It does not move at all while sitting on the bench.

[Aces]

Here are the tail settings from the icon unit. Also under the throttle out and telemetry governor set up I have some numbers in there but I don’t think that they are active.

[Aces]

I also don’t see a way to increase the gains for the tail Gyro in the icon? Maybe I am missing it or maybe it’s not needed? But in some of the other fly barless units that I have used in the past, mainly Align ones, there have been gain adjustments

[PawPaw]

Ok, just a thought. If it’s not drifting on the bench that’s not the problem I was suspecting.

[PawPaw]

You don’t have the governor mode “on” in the Ikon, do you? I noticed you have the CC ESC in “set rpm” governor mode so Ikon should be off, or if you want to use the Ikon gov mode then the CC should be “multi rotor” or “remote gov” mode.

[DCORSAIR]

I wish I could help you Aces but I have no experience at all with any other FBL units other than Microbeast, I just got started with FBL a couple of years ago and only learned Microbeast so far, need to get one of those Ikon units and learn it too, but I find the Microbeast so easy to set up and my buddy Gravy showed me how with Bluetooth, can't get any easier than that. PawPaw knows Ikon and I see he is helping you on that, as for the Apache, there is nothing wrong with the stock tail set up, I actually like it better than the cascading tail I have on it now but it looks better scale wise or I would just fly the stock 4 blade tail it comes with, tried both and the stock 4 blade has more authority and holds better, but anyway which tail are you running on yours?

[Aces]

PawPaw. I’m pretty sure that I am not using the governor mode in ikon. I am in set rpm using the esc.
DC. Thanks for jumping in. I almost went with microbeast. I actually started out with Bavarian Demon 3x. Having these issues I thought that maybe it was the unit. So I tried the icon. It is pretty easy to set up. I really don’t think it has to do with the FBL unit. I am using a cascade tail built for me by Michael Brown. It is really really nice. I have not even tried the stock tail. But I really want the scale look so I’ve got to figure this out.

[DCORSAIR]

Ok, yeah the cascading tail looks way better after it's painted black,, that's what I'm flying with now but I still like the locked in feeling of the stock 4 blade tail it comes with, just doesn't look right compared to the cascading tail. Hopefuly you get it figured out, I bought my Apache already built and flown from my buddy Gravy, he never had issues with the tail and now that I have it, the tail hasn't given me any issues like your having and we used different tail servos, so I would say it was in your ikon setup or a gain set to low, have you went back to like the default settiings??? I did hear of tail issues when the ikon and ESC both are turned on in Gov. mode, I know you have to use one or the other. Try running a flat throttle curve only and no Gov. mode at all and see what happens, I think I'm running more than 1250 RPM on mine, not really sure because I don't run in gov. mode at all, I use a flat throttle curve only on my scale helis.

[PawPaw]

Aces, jump into advanced menu for governor and make sure each of the three flight mode modes has the “use governor” block unchecked. Also, with the Castle Creations ESC you must go through the throttle setup procedure in the basic menu to teach the Ikon the actual low and high points of your ESC. For the gyro gain, I had it assigned to a slider on my Futaba tx. Find what channel your receiver has assigned to the gyro and set that up to a VR switch or you can just leave it in the Ikon software but much more inconvenient to adjust.
To be absolutely certain there is no conflict, I suggest you unplug the rpm sensor wire from the ESC to your receiver unless you have that aux wire assigned to a different function in the ESC. Can verify this by watching the Ikon screen with the motor running…should not see “magnet detected” or an active rpm value.
For the Ikon 2 BT I have that’s problem free (and I trust) it is set to governor mode and my Hobbywing Platinum Pro ESC is set to linear curve mode so the Ikon controls everything. Not saying that will be optimum for you, certainly, but I found a much more stable headspeed when configured that way. To my way of thinking, a stable headspeed is the first block that needs to be checked off for any flight problem diagnosis assuming, of course, that obvious mechanical setup issues have been corrected.

[Aces]

Thank you guys for these ideas. I will go through my setups again and get back with you.

[DCORSAIR]

Thank you guys for these ideas. I will go through my setups again and get back with you.

Your welcome, wish I had the answer for you, so what does your Apache do as the rotor is coming up to speed?? then as you lift off, does it rotate hard to the right or just drift to the right slowly as if the tail is not holding?? I think I read your first post correctly, just trying to get a better understanding of how the tail is acting upon start up, make sure you have no rudder trim in your radio, everything is neutral, just a thought.

[Aces]

Everything ask great. Deerings pull up there is no issue. When I turn the nose either direction the tail stops immediately when I wanted to. It’s simply that if I hover in one position it will slowly turn nose right. And if I punch the throttle to do a climb out it will turn 45°
I will check the radio settings just to make sure.

[DCORSAIR]

Everything ask great. Deerings pull up there is no issue. When I turn the nose either direction the tail stops immediately when I wanted to. It’s simply that if I hover in one position it will slowly turn nose right. And if I punch the throttle to do a climb out it will turn 45°
I will check the radio settings just to make sure.

Okay, now I have a better understanding, mine will do the same if I punch out to hard, just a small kick but it comes right back to where it needs to be and does not move in a hover, so yeah you have an issue somewhere apparently, maybe PawPaw is on to something with his knowledge of the ikon.

[Aces]

Ok. I am trying to go back through my esc settings. I have checked the radio settings and there is no subtrim or regular trim dialed in. I currently am using governor mode in the esc. And after putting in my motor information and lipo info it gave me the headspeeds shown in the pic above (the first pic posted). However I have some questions. Be patient with me since I have really no clue about this stuff. A friend help me with these settings.
1. If I increase the head speeds shown for each flight mode (the percentage of throttle) from current to 1200, 1300 and 1450 it shows the percentages to use for the throttle curve. But the 1450 head speed says "setup has minimal governor overhead" SO is this basically saying that is too high?
2. Under Governor Gain in the picture my friend said he did a custom setting of "7" as shown in the picture. But I see others just using the standard "medium" setting.

On a different note (not related to the tail) right now my setup is such that when i power up the esc does not arm until I flip into throttle hold. Then when I flip throttle hold off it immediately goes to its first headspeed (30%). I would like to manually control the spool up rate until it gets up to speed. I thought that if I just went in and set the "N" (normal) setting in throttle curve to a linear curve that I could accomplish this. But when i do so it has no effect on the esc. Is this not doable in governor mode? Maybe I have to be in "fixed endpoints"

[PawPaw]

One of the Ikon 2’s seemingly persistent complaints from users is it’s sensitivity to Tx center stick position. It’s supposed to reference that on each power up, set it internally, then be good to go for that cycle. The premise is that as a Tx ages the wear on internals shifts the zero outputs or some such theory. An easy adjustment for that can be found in setup 1, 2, and 3 menus by changing the stick deadband values (default is 2 or 3 if I remember), but I would experiment with the gyro gain first. This really sounds like the tail servo slow drift issue I encountered and mentioned earlier, but it would start moving before the heli even spooled up. Might try reorienting the Ikon 2 to wires to the rear and changing that in setup just to see if it helps….it did seem to fix that issue with mine. Just for info, I really like the Ikon 2’s setup menus and awesome tuning parameters but the glitches I’ve had to diagnose and correct destroyed my trust in it. When I grow up to be a better pilot I will revisit Ikon but right now it’s Beast X for me. 😎

[PawPaw]

Your “N” should be flat curve “0-0-0-0-0”. That’s why it’s spooling up when TH is switched off.

[PawPaw]

Your idle ups are assigned to switches with the flat curve values, i.e “IU 1= 0-30-30-30-30, IU 2= 0-60-60-60-60” etc. Yours set up that way?