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HELP!! With Roban 700 Apache Tail

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  • #61
    Well if you do end up shopping around, here's a couple ideas...
    Scorpion 4035-520


    Tengu 4035-520kv
    Oops... The page you were looking for cannot be found. It has either been removed, or the link that got you here is outdated.


    The Scorpion has a 38mm shaft and is cheaper... and they are in the US so the motor would come quicker.
    Then Tengu can pick a 38mm or 40mm shaft... more expensive and ships from overseas.

    Comment


    • #62
      Sorry for all the posts. Just doing this while i am off work. So does anyone know if a longer shaft is available for the 800mx motor? Before I go looking for the right hardened steel shaft to turn our own I thought I would see if there might be another shaft that can be utilized. I will be researching but thought I would throw throw it out as I go back to work. Thanks for everyones input.

      Comment


      • #63
        All this talk about broken shafts made me go out to my shop and see if I could fit the bearing brace to my OH-6 mechanics, I have no idea why I didn't install it from the beginning but it fit like a glove in about 15 minutes, I'm running the Align 750MX 450KV motor with stock length on the shaft and it fit perfectly. I did drill a hole in the front motor plate to be able to tighten up the pulley set screws easier. Now I need to check my Magnum PI, but I'm pretty sure the shaft was to short on the Pyro 700-450kv motor that's in it, I'm going to check it next time I pull the mechanics out, it must be fine without it because I have a whole bunch of flights on it and it would have broke a shaft by now I would think.
        Attached Files

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        • #64
          So I was looking up the specs on the 800MX, and there seems to be three versions? Do you have HML80M01, HML80M06, or HML80M11? Looks like M06 AND M11 have 50/51mm shafts and M01 had a 37mm shaft. Perhaps you could find a replacement for the M06/M11 version to put in yours.

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          • #65
            So, looks like you could find this: HMP85M01T. It's the long version. I see one on Amain- but the part number says HMP85M01... (without the T). But the description says 6x10x112.5 and the picture of the shaft in the bag says HMP85M01T.
            This is a replacement Align 850MX Motor Shaft, with included bearings. This shaft is intended for use with all Align 850MX Brushless Motors. ... AGNHMP85M01


            The shorter one (which I think you currently have) numbers are 6x10x93.5.

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            • #66
              Hi. Looks good DC! I think it provides a great deal of confidence. And thank you Fury for all of that info. I have been in communication a guy at the "ALIGN TREX SHOP" and he believes he has one for my motor. He is double checking the length and will get back with me later today or tomorrow. I will let you know. I have complete confidence in the motor itself and with the longer shaft to accomodate the shaft brace I will be in good shape. Then it will be back to the tail issue

              Or maybe this will help?

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Aces View Post
                Actually!! At $440 I’m not sure I need kontronik.
                maybe I will have to have my dad turn me a shaft on his metal lathe.
                You should be able to find a replacement longer shaft from another motor if you plan to keep, thought you were looking the the https://www.egodrift.com/scale-colle...035hs-520.html that shaft is long enough to use the support, you need at least 40mm, it will leave 15mm for the support.Ikon should have the pre-comp, what it does is add extra tail blade pitch on hard cyclic pitch too compensate for the torque pull

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                • #68
                  Hi Birdman. I was looking at other motors but if I can just get a longer shaft I don’t think there’s a need to replace the motor itself. The problem really comes from the torque on the bottom of the shaft. If I have the brace there to support the shaft, and the belt at the proper attention, then motor has plenty of power for the helicopter.
                  I Will have to look into that feature on the icon. Do I remember you saying that it was under and advanced tab?
                  another thing is just trying to find an actual “gain” feature. To increase or decrease the gain of the tail gyro. I would have to look back through this thread but somebody suggested putting the cane on a dial on my radio but I don’t even know where to do that in the icon? Since this motor incident I have not been able to look at the icon settings. I will probably try that tomorrow.

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                  • #69
                    Open the Wizard tab and the gain adjustment in under the “transmitter setup” menu.

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                    • #70
                      You don’t assign the tail gain to a switch in the Ikon. You do it in your transmitter. You find out what channel in your receiver is gyro by searching your Tx menu, then assign a VR switch (I use a slider) to it. In the transmitter. I also set up my Futaba T10J to display the gain value on the display.

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                      • #71
                        Aces, trust that I have helping you as my focus here. I really am concerned there might be some critical settings in your Ikon Setup Wizard that may be wrong, missed, or incomplete. I offer this simply based on your confusion of the tail gain location in the Wizard. If you are using an app on your phone, then scroll down the left side of the screen and click on “Wizard”. Menu item #5 is “Transmitter Setup”, and tail gain is there. I suggest using a PC or IPad for your setup instead of a phone. My advice is not tinker with any advanced setting until you have a good handle on the tail gain, then you can experiment with those advanced features after you are satisfied no amount of gain adjustment helps your problem. Click image for larger version

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                        • #72
                          Hi Paw Paw. I completely agree with you. I am NOT good at setting up these gyros and although I felt like these ikons were fairly easy to navigate, I am sure I have missed something somewhere. I have only ever used Align FBL units before getting this heli and the Bavarian Demon. And although I know that is an excellent unit it was very hard for me to understand the programming and no one in my area had them. I did my setup (on the ikon) on my laptop, not my phone, although I do have the app for making adjustments at the field. There is no one around my area that uses the ikon so I dont have anyone to check it out.
                          When you say you assign the gain to a VR switch (like a slider or knob), I am not familiar with VR? the only thing that comes to mind is virtual reality . But tomorrow I will go through my programming again. Cant test it obviously but I can find the tail gain.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Aces View Post
                            Hi Paw Paw. I completely agree with you. I am NOT good at setting up these gyros and although I felt like these ikons were fairly easy to navigate, I am sure I have missed something somewhere. I have only ever used Align FBL units before getting this heli and the Bavarian Demon. And although I know that is an excellent unit it was very hard for me to understand the programming and no one in my area had them. I did my setup (on the ikon) on my laptop, not my phone, although I do have the app for making adjustments at the field. There is no one around my area that uses the ikon so I dont have anyone to check it out.
                            When you say you assign the gain to a VR switch (like a slider or knob), I am not familiar with VR? the only thing that comes to mind is virtual reality . But tomorrow I will go through my programming again. Cant test it obviously but I can find the tail gain.
                            If you are ever up in the DFW area I'd be happy to help go through the setup. What radio system are you using? On Spektrum, you can enable a channel for tail gain and have different gains for each position on a 3 position switch. Not as simple as a slider, but still pretty easy to dial in a good gain setting.

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                            • #74
                              VR is variable rate…a dial knob or slider.

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                              • #75
                                I have a spektrum 8 channel. I have a couple of knobs but no sliders. And I live in Georgetown! About 30 miles north of Austin. I just may take you up on that offer if I cant figure this out. Going to bed. Thanks.

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                                • #76
                                  Ok just to update so you don't go off in the wrong direction:
                                  Tail gain is used to hold the tail in a direction, you had mentioned it flew ok ? had a slight "drift" in a hover.....vibration will cause this.
                                  Go do a fast forward flight, if you get any tail "wag" than lower the tail gain.
                                  A good rule of thumb is in a hover, keep raising the gain up till you see a slight tail "wag", than lower it 5 points, than go do a fast forward flight, if it experiences "wag" lower the gain a bit more till it stops. tail should be locked in solid at that point. Another test is do fast stationary piro's with a sudden stop, tail should stop on a dime and not "wag".

                                  Tail Pre-comp is a different setting, It Pre-Compensates for an event that has not yet happened, the gyro can calculate millions of time faster than our old brains, hence if it senses you are about to do a hard vertical climb, it will give the tail more "authority" to compensate for the up coming torque pull the main blades are going to cause during that event, in return the the tail does not drift 45 degrees side ways. Same idea as how a governor works, it senses a hard vertical climb about to happen so it will increase motor rpm to compensate for the increased blade pitch that is about to happen to keep the motor rpm at set speed.

                                  Another setup Tip for a tail...Be careful as heli will be powered on "in throttle hold" :) Blades need to be installed correctly...

                                  Trailing edge of the tail blade will always follow stick movement and tail movement, this is true for all gyros and tail setups, does not matter what side the blades are on, or the direction of rotation.
                                  Stand at rear of heli, move tail manually in any direction, trailing edge of blade will point to that direction, move stick in any sideways direction, trailing edge of blade will point in that direction, This confirms blades are installed correctly and gyro direction is correct.
                                  I've seen many setups where the tail blades were installed incorrectly, will it fly yes it will...properly, No :)

                                  Birdman

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                                  • #77
                                    Click image for larger version

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ID:	323349 Thank you Paul Paul far all of those hints. I just now got to the point where I could check my icon settings. And I think that I do see the issue. The proportional gain function at the bottom was set at 5%. If I check the box that says “is set in software” it allows me to then adjust that game up. So I am going to bet that 5% on the tail was not enough. I will play with the settings once I have the motor back up and running. I do want to set it up to adjust through my transmitter. However I think that having the app installed on my phone will be just as easy.

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                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by Aces View Post
                                      Click image for larger version  Name:	31B8ECB3-6240-4186-9BEB-03F570B10F62.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	131.6 KB ID:	323351Click image for larger version  Name:	45B1627D-5541-4B0E-96F5-656BB6CDC5D3.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	174.4 KB ID:	323350Click image for larger version  Name:	A2A28815-DCC2-447F-A945-5ADA0549D4D7.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	121.1 KB ID:	323349 Thank you Paul Paul far all of those hints. I just now got to the point where I could check my icon settings. And I think that I do see the issue. The proportional gain function at the bottom was set at 5%. If I check the box that says “is set in software” it allows me to then adjust that game up. So I am going to bet that 5% on the tail was not enough. I will play with the settings once I have the motor back up and running. I do want to set it up to adjust through my transmitter. However I think that having the app installed on my phone will be just as easy.
                                      5%, I don't think that is enough to keep the tail straight, , looks like you might have found the issue, and as far as the transmitter gain settings, it should say in the ikon program somewhere what channel your gain is available on or you can assign a channel, like my Microbeast, when it reads what rx I'm using it automatically assigns the gain to channel 5 which on the older Futaba radios like mine, that's what I always use to set my gyro gains, then I can just program what I need at anytime by moving the %% in my radio ,up for more gain or less for less gain or I can use the Microbeast Bluetooth adapter and change what I need with my phone.

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                                      • #79
                                        So did you figure out what you were going to do about the shaft??

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                                        • #80
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ID:	325276 Hello everybody. It has been several weeks since I last posted. So I ordered a new shaft for my motor but ended up being the wrong one. So I went ahead and ordered a new motor. I just decided to go with the align 800 MX which has the longer shaft. I have it installed along with the brace and everything seems to be good. If you have followed this thread you know that I found that my tail gain was set to only 5% in the icon settings. So I increased it to 50%, hoping that would solve the situation, but it did not. The tail did not do any better. I increased to 70% with still no luck. All the way to 85%. So I thought that maybe I was going the wrong direction and xlowered it to 25% but still no luck. This was just today on my lunch break. I brought it back to my shop and went through the tail set up again. Everything seems to be right. At center I have 0°. I have equal travel left and right. So I am really stumped here.
                                          there Hass to be something in the icon settings for the radio settings that I am missing. I have set up many helicopters in the past and had no issues with setting the tail. But this is really driving me nuts. Almost 3 years spent building this thing and I can’t even fly it yet.
                                          I am attaching some photos of my set up and also the icon settings. One question I have is In the tail set up page at the bottom it has a box to check that says “ set in software“ which seems to mean that this is some sort of auto gain set by the Gyro? Right below this, in the green box, it has another box to check for heading lock mode. I assume this is what you want.
                                          I just may have to take F106deltadarts offer and drive to Dallas to go through this thing.

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