New FMS/Eflite Su-30 coming soon

[Hugh Wiedman]

Ah so, the light finally went on, even though it's still quite dim and subject to black outs! Read back through the posts and Evan D even mentioned the Admiral 10 channel, only 33 bucks, that he uses. May not have to eat my words after all! Sounds like a great option. Maybe I should stick to a flight simulator. To power the 2nd receiver from the existing BEC in the ESC, do you just splice another + - wire to the existing lead and wire in a female port to that or is there a y-connector with 1 Male input and 2 female ends out there that I would cut 1 of the signal wires on to go to the 2nd receiver. (I've only seen y connectors with 2 males and 1 female) If I have to make servo connections, surprisingly that is something I can do. (I need to stop posting here and leave space for guys with something interesting on this jet to post-sorry)

[Hugh Wiedman]

I don't think you can do that. The second RX must have a channel 7 or 8. You can't plug the airbrake into any of the first 6 channels or it will cross talk with the primary RX. You have little choice but to get at least a 7-ch TX. Your only other choice if you want to go the cheap 2-3 ch RX route, is to bind it to ANOTHER TX but do you really want to fly with 2 transmitters hanging off your neck?

Oh, that makes sense, tells you how little I know about this stuff. Appreciate the heads up, without guys like you I don't know what I'd do. In that case, I may just eat my last words and wait for the AR9350 to come back into stock.

[xviper]

sticking a cheap 2-3 channel receiver with it solely for the air brake may be the quickest and cheapest solution.

I don't think you can do that. The second RX must have a channel 7 or 8. You can't plug the airbrake into any of the first 6 channels or it will cross talk with the primary RX. You have little choice but to get at least a 7-ch TX. Your only other choice if you want to go the cheap 2-3 ch RX route, is to bind it to ANOTHER TX but do you really want to fly with 2 transmitters hanging off your neck?

[Hugh Wiedman]

I like the DX8 G2. I even bought a friend's used one as a spare backup for when this one craps out. I have yet to have a plane that needed that 9th channel, so I've never considered the DX9. I hope they don't discontinue the 8. I can't justify the big money for those new high channel Spektrum TXs.
Insofar as the high cost of the high channel AS3X RXs, there is a cheaper workaround. Look into a Lemon 8 or 10 channel RX with sat and a HobbyEagle gyro that will offer flaperon programming. The Aura 8 flight controller will also work but you have to know how to program it and it's not cheap either, plus you still need some kind of RX (a serial one is best but those aren't cheap).

Great advice, thanks yet again. I've spent about 5 years "learning" everything I could about programming and gains for the AR636 and have that receiver in 25 planes (from jets to prop warbirds to 3D acrobatics). I finally feel very comfortable in using it in any application, so I'll probably "go to my grave" with that receiver (hey, finally learning the pong tv game too).

With that said, keeping the BNF AR636 in this jet for the gyro programming it for flaperons and sticking a cheap 2-3 channel receiver with it solely for the air brake may be the quickest and cheapest solution. I'm not spending $160 for the 9 channel AS3X even if I win the lottery.

[xviper]

I like the DX8 G2. I even bought a friend's used one as a spare backup for when this one craps out. I have yet to have a plane that needed that 9th channel, so I've never considered the DX9. I hope they don't discontinue the 8. I can't justify the big money for those new high channel Spektrum TXs.
Insofar as the high cost of the high channel AS3X RXs, there is a cheaper workaround. Look into a Lemon 8 or 10 channel RX with sat and a HobbyEagle gyro that will offer flaperon programming. The Aura 8 flight controller will also work but you have to know how to program it and it's not cheap either, plus you still need some kind of RX (a serial one is best but those aren't cheap).

[Hugh Wiedman]

Any thoughts then on a Dx8 vs Dx9? The 8 would save me not only the $100 difference between the 2, but I have 4 batteries for my Dx6 which are the same as used in the Dx8. The 9 has a different battery. Some say the 8 is being discontinued or won't have some of the new upgraded software that the 9 has.

And here I thought it would be simple to get this jet, put it together with no need to repaint, pick one of Callies graphics, rebuild the cockpit or modify and just go out and fly, like the good old days (flying an hour after the box arrived). Now I'm thinking of adding receivers, buying new transmitters, and getting the twin 70mm afterburners (have to confess I already ordered those) Man, it just keeps gettin better.

[PaulZ]

Nope. I didn't. I just wanted to let you know how nice it is to run 8 channels in the plane!

Yes that is probably the ideal combination for this model. I also saw a big difference in landing speed when the flaps are deployed. I may just give up and put a 7ch RX in it. 8ch is of course even better because you can retain better roll control with tailierons.

[Hugh Wiedman]

Spectrum used to make the AR7350 AS3X 7 Channel receiver which was $20 cheaper than the AR9350, but I don't see it on HH website anymore, only on Ebay and a few other hobby stores. Still, that's $50 more than the AR636. Man, that's an expensive last channel. It would be cheaper to get an inexpensive 2nd receiver for the air brake alone as suggested earlier, certainly doesn't need a gyro for anything other than the 3 main surfaces. Guess that's the way I'll go when I finally spring for a new transmitter, and in the meantime use flaperons only. I think PaulZ will somewhat solve it with the delay, but guess I'm too much of a p...... to chance anything happening unexpectedly that I'd have to correct on the fly. For me that usually results in a lawn dart.

[nuts-n-volts]

Nope. I didn't. I just wanted to let you know how nice it is to run 8 channels in the plane!

[xviper]

Tell ya what... This jet lands fantastic with flaps. I set it up with tailerons in back and only flaps on the wing. Speed brake works by itself but I always deploy it and full flaps for final and landing. You can get this thing very slow with power on. Very realistic.

But did you do it with the stock 6-ch receiver? I think that was the gist of the last page or so of posts.

[nuts-n-volts]

Tell ya what... This jet lands fantastic with flaps. I set it up with tailerons in back and only flaps on the wing. Speed brake works by itself but I always deploy it and full flaps for final and landing. You can get this thing very slow with power on. Very realistic.

[Hugh Wiedman]

OK, my bubble just burst, was really excited about having flaps and air brake with only 6 channels but may be too many potential pitfalls and I have enough issues just using the main controls. A young'un at our grass field has one and even landing with no flaps or air brake was good. As PaulZ, I do like flaperons, especially on my F-16, so may program that and loose the brake. Was going to order the PNP version and then put in that expensive 9 channel AS3X, but just checked and the receiver is out till March and the PNP version is TBA, which I think means "when hell freezes over". It's kind of moot since I only have a 6 channel transmitter, but thought I'd at least set the jet up for flaperons and air brake at the start then it would finally force me into upgrading to the DX 8 or 9.

[xviper]

XViper is right, the airbrake did not retract back (close) when the flaps went back to level (50%). When I add the delay circuit the only way for it to close will be to deflect alierons to 100% and wait for it to close. This will be on the ground after landing. So this is another problem with the idea of wiring it this way. I like the way the plane behaves with flaps down and how slow it flies that I will keep this solution but it is for sure not for everyone. I wished Spektrum had a cheaper 7-ch receiver. That is really the right way to do this. They now only have the 9-ch which is $150.

A 7 ch. RX with AS3X would have been great for this plane. I must admit that flaperons are cool.

[PaulZ]

XViper is right, the airbrake did not retract back (close) when the flaps went back to level (50%). When I add the delay circuit the only way for it to close will be to deflect alierons to 100% and wait for it to close. This will be on the ground after landing. So this is another problem with the idea of wiring it this way. I like the way the plane behaves with flaps down and how slow it flies that I will keep this solution but it is for sure not for everyone. I wished Spektrum had a cheaper 7-ch receiver. That is really the right way to do this. They now only have the 9-ch which is $150.

[xviper]

Here is a real scary thought, the more I think about what xviper said, the more I think he was right and I was wrong, thats not the scary part, he's always right. I completely overlooked the fact that in flaperon mode, the right aileron absolutely is plugged into channel 6. The slight variations in movement from the AS3X is not enough to affect the air brake, but what happens when you move an aileron stick 100% in a certain direction, will the air brake deploy?? This could happen at take off flap setting or even full flap up and doing a full hard roll. Taking off at 50% flaps, then inputing 50% or more ailerons to bank left or right while climbing could deploy the airbrake. Can you say disaster?

Hugh, thanks for the vote of confidence, BUT, I'm not always right. Sometimes, I'm guessing based on my experience and deduction, which isn't always on the mark.
Regarding what the airbrake does (in the case where you've got it "Y'd" to the Ch. 6 flaperon, what you just said makes sense. Mind you, if when taking off (or any other time), you find yourself using full throws on the aileron in that direction, the airbrake being fully deployed during that brief moment shouldn't case a catastrophic outcome. Even if you find yourself doing several corkscrew rolls on purpose, as long as you've got enough power, a fully extended airbrake up top shouldn't be terribly detrimental. I've seen real jets with centrally mounted dorsal airbrakes fully extended while doing multiple rolls and they seem to be quite controlled. The problem may come when trying to get that brake back down. As a worm drive mechanism, like a retract, it likely needs to see the other end point signal in order to begin to retract. That could mean a full crank of the aileron in the opposite direction.
Many of our theories about how and when the airbrake will deploy can be easily tested on the bench. I'm hoping mine will arrive around the end of this month. I plan to set it up stock as per the manual so I won't know what would happen if I did the flaperon thing with the "Y" for brake. Eventually, after I see how it flies, I'll add another RX so I can isolate the airbrake to its own switch. I'm still wondering if flaperons are really necessary to slow this thing down. My Freewing SU-35 can be slowed down quite nicely if flown high alpha on approach, right onto the deck. Mind you, it's got vectored thrust to help with control at low speeds.
These new AS3X planes from Horizon, as programmed from the factory are so well done (in the stabilization department), that I prefer to keep the RX that comes with them. I reprogrammed a 636A for my big balsa Twin Otter and that plane is amazingly solid and stable. This will be my first Eflite EDF with the stock BNF receiver. I'm really looking forward to it.

[Hugh Wiedman]

Here is a real scary thought, the more I think about what xviper said, the more I think he was right and I was wrong, thats not the scary part, he's always right. I completely overlooked the fact that in flaperon mode, the right aileron absolutely is plugged into channel 6. The slight variations in movement from the AS3X is not enough to affect the air brake, but what happens when you move an aileron stick 100% in a certain direction, will the air brake deploy?? This could happen at take off flap setting or even full flap up and doing a full hard roll. Taking off at 50% flaps, then inputing 50% or more ailerons to bank left or right while climbing could deploy the airbrake. Can you say disaster?

[xviper]

Last question, does the air brake close when you move back to 1/2 flap, or do you then have to go to full flaps up to get it to close?

That's a good question. I would think that the signal going to the airbrake on full flaps is going to make for full open brake. For sure with zero flaps, the brakes should be full closed. The part that is interesting to me is what does the brake do when going from full flaps to 1/2 flaps? I'm going to guess the brake stays full up but only those who have flown this plane on the factory BNF setup can say for sure. Not that it should come into play as you have either just landed and while going back to the pits, you put the flaps back up completely (brakes go all the way down) OR, you have just done a touch can go, in which case, as you are going back in the air, you are going to close the flaps completely (brakes closed) and suck up the gear.

[Hugh Wiedman]

Ok so I tried this tonight. It almost worked and I was right about the air brake retract ignoring signals other then 100%. The only problem I had is that when the flaps were deflected to 100% the airbrake started deploying immediately - not a good thing during flight and doing rolls. I need a delay circuit that would delay the signals by a second or two. I ordered one from Hobbywing: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...regulator.html

Let's see if this will work? Almost there, still cheaper than swapping the receiver...

Not sure if it's that big an issue that the air brake deploys immediately at 100 % flaps. Your already slowing down by first going to 1/2 flaps as you're getting configured for landing. It can't be any faster of an air brake deployment than the original stock set up without flaps, or is it? And you're not going to be doing any rolls or other funky stuff as you're getting ready to land. It sounds to me like you've solved it. 1/2 flaps for take off with no air brake and full flaps for landing with air brake.

Last question, does the air brake close when you move back to 1/2 flap, or do you then have to go to full flaps up to get it to close?

[xviper]

Ok so I tried this tonight. It almost worked and I was right about the air brake retract ignoring signals other then 100%. The only problem I had is that when the flaps were deflected to 100% the airbrake started deploying immediately - not a good thing during flight and doing rolls. I need a delay circuit that would delay the signals by a second or two. I ordered one from Hobbywing: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...regulator.html

Let's see if this will work? Almost there, still cheaper than swapping the receiver...

So nothing happens with the airbrake at 1/2 flaps? Is the airbrake deployment instantaneous or is it slow?

[PaulZ]

Gentlemen,

I have an idea I will be trying out and will report back. The real SU-30 lands with full flaperons down and the airbrake fully deployed. I will try to replicate this as follows:

1) I noticed that the airbrake is not driven by a servo but instead by a modified retract that has a worm gear in it - great job E-Flite!. As we know "most" retracts only respond to full 100% channel signals and not anything in between. So...
2) I'll try first to just hook it up to one of the flap channels and it should ignore all the "wiggling" until I deploy full flaps which are at 100%
3) If that does not work I'll connect a landing gear sequencer between the air brake retract and the flap channel. These tend to ignore all signals untill they have 100% for a few seconds.

The result should be an airbrake that deploys when I have flaperons fully deployed but not when I have them at half flaps for takeoff. We will see but it think this should work without the need for swapping out for a receiver with more channels. Let's see...

Ok so I tried this tonight. It almost worked and I was right about the air brake retract ignoring signals other then 100%. The only problem I had is that when the flaps were deflected to 100% the airbrake started deploying immediately - not a good thing during flight and doing rolls. I need a delay circuit that would delay the signals by a second or two. I ordered one from Hobbywing: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...regulator.html

Let's see if this will work? Almost there, still cheaper than swapping the receiver...