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Metal upgrade for a TongDe M60A1 to improve reliability

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  • RichJohnson
    replied
    Here is that video
    M60A1 RC tank by TongDe shown with accurized accessories by JVM3Dconcepts. Video was filmed during the October 2023 San Diego RC Tank Clubs "Battle and Drive...

    Leave a comment:


  • Rubicon99
    replied
    Originally posted by SoCalBobS View Post
    As an experiment, I’ve been driving my M60 using the plastic gearbox, plastic tracks and only metal sprockets, on the same ground as R99’s. No problems to date, no but I have a metal gearbox waiting just in case. My only mishap was banging off the magnetically attached top hull when I went over and down that same steep hill!
    That banging scene👍👍 was cut from the video we did of all three M60 going over.

    Leave a comment:


  • SoCalBobS
    replied
    As an experiment, I’ve been driving my M60 using the plastic gearbox, plastic tracks and only metal sprockets, on the same ground as R99’s. No problems to date, no but I have a metal gearbox waiting just in case. My only mishap was banging off the magnetically attached top hull when I went over and down that same steep hill!

    Leave a comment:


  • keilau
    replied
    Originally posted by Rubicon99 View Post

    A couple of questions.

    First did you replace the 2 stock nylon arm bushing with bearings? The bushing fit MUCH loser to the metal arms then bearings do. The bearing in all three of my M60s fit rather tightly compared to the stock nylon bushing.

    Second did you replace the nylon wheel bushing with bearings? The bushings are under sized and the wheels "wobble" around quite a bit on their axles. The "wobble" actually will cause the axles if not properly tighten to unscrew and the wheel fall off. Tamiya uses a similar design wheel axle to arm setup on a number of their tanks and can have similar issue as the brass bushing wear. Hence why so many people replace the brass bushing with bearings. TD using loose fitting nylon(or plastic) bushing this happens from the start. Replacing the bushing with bearings will illuminate 90% or more of the issues caused by "wobbling". That said it does not rule out the arm could be a poorly molded / undersized arm. This not uncommon even with the metal stock and aftermarket HL arms. I have a drawer full of them that can attest to this.

    Yes, the wheel axles can be a bit tight fitting onto TD arms. I had a few that were this way but managed to get everything settled and they are working very well. If the arm does not screw on completely then either it needs to be re-tapped or simply drilled out so the axle can fit in and be glued/fixed in place. Once done you should never have to deal with it again.

    Fortunately the newest M60 have many of the "first run" issues worked out and are proving to be excellent running tanks. Keep at it because I know in the end you will have a great running tank.
    I have one of the early plastic version TD M60A1. I found that the upgrade @Rubincon99 suggested here made a world of difference. Since I do the metal upgrade myself, I was able to align the arms and wheel axles individually. I have no experience with the later production metal version. Does it still use the nylon arm and wheel bushings? Or they are upgraded to precision bearings? If not, I will highly recommend that you do the bearing upgrade @Rubincon99 suggested.

    The torsion bar suspension with metal arms does give the TD M60A1 an advantage over most plastic chassis Heng Long's.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrChef
    replied
    Originally posted by Rubicon99 View Post
    If anyone is interested I have post a "long run" video of one of my M60s running around the San Diego tanks clubs battle field tearing up the dirt and hull. YouTube: Fsttanks1

    The tank in the video is a metal edition on plastic tracks and has NO running gear modifications.
    Just watched. Pretty impressive demo on varied and challenging terrain. Nice video as well. Looks like the only challenge was the steep hill near the end, then ya just took a different approach and finally churned your way to teetering on the top.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rubicon99
    replied
    If anyone is interested I have post a "long run" video of one of my M60s running around the San Diego tanks clubs battle field tearing up the dirt and hull. YouTube: Fsttanks1

    The tank in the video is a metal edition on plastic tracks and has NO running gear modifications.

    Leave a comment:


  • RichJohnson
    replied
    Originally posted by keilau View Post
    The TongDe M60 needs a host of mechanical running upgrades and they are not for the average modeler. Your suggestion to add ball bearing to the road wheel and metal swing arm makes a huge difference to the mechanical running. But it will not be possible without the torsion bar bracket that you designed. Tongde used soft alloy for the metal swing arms. I give them credit for making precision fit for the industry standard ball bearings. The tight pressure fit of the 48 pieces of bearing makes the installation tricky. The strong resin brackets allow me to press hard on them during install. Once I got rid of the loose nylon rings of the suspension with ball bearings, it is a different running tank.
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    The Tongde plastic gearbox came with a long crack on the case. I got the metal gearbox, but was disappointed that the cases were made with soft alloy again. I replaced all the mounting M3 screw with hard steel ones. During work on the suspension, I had to remove and reinstall the gearbox. No matter how careful I was, I stripped one of the 6 screw threads on the gearbox. The standard 18mm M3 machine screw cannot be tightened and the 20mm screw is too long to fit. I have to customer made a 19mm screw to mount the gearbox securely.
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    Now, the TD M60 runs very well. But I am still scratching my head on how to fix the headlight LEDs.


    I have to say I disagree with this quite a bit.
    I sold all the brackets I had JVM make and didn’t have any when my tank arrived. They have not run any commercial projects with that material since so they have not been able to make any more for me.
    I have done almost nothing to my m60. I bought a metal edition but run plastic tracks. All I did was file the back corner of the hull and the ledge on the curve of the hull to stop the track catching and jamming. I am careful backing up so I don’t overtwist the rear tortion arm and bar and yet I have driven the ever living crap out of my tank. I have driven it harder than any other tank I have and it’s the best running next to my super built Tamiya leopard 1 tanks however it is the most fun to run. The ground clearance is much higher than a leoaprd 1 and and it was way cheaper than the money I have in my leoaprd 1s.
    I have done nothing else running gear wise and it just runs and runs. And like I said, I beat the crap out of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrChef
    replied
    Originally posted by tank_me View Post

    That's because Louis more focused on the accuracy of the tank than actually running it and he definitely doesn't battle his tanks.
    Yes he clearly stated that it would be built as an accurate model that would occupy shelf space And be able to be a runner.

    He also mentioned his roundabout budget for it was $400 for that tank. Not like the $2k on his amazing Bradley.

    Leave a comment:


  • keilau
    replied
    Originally posted by tank_me View Post

    That's because Louis more focused on the accuracy of the tank than actually running it and he definitely doesn't battle his tanks.
    Coming from a plastic modeling background, I really admire and enjoy reading his work. However, I must say that the Tongde M60 is a very poor candidate for making an accurate display tank model. Oh, my modeling bug bites and I am reworking the tow cable again. Will post when I finish. Minor stuff compared to what Louis did.

    Leave a comment:


  • keilau
    replied
    Originally posted by Rubicon99 View Post

    Yep he almost completely rebuilt the tank and its armor plating. Lot of work cosmetically but very little in the way of mechanical running upgrades.
    The TongDe M60 needs a host of mechanical running upgrades and they are not for the average modeler. Your suggestion to add ball bearing to the road wheel and metal swing arm makes a huge difference to the mechanical running. But it will not be possible without the torsion bar bracket that you designed. Tongde used soft alloy for the metal swing arms. I give them credit for making precision fit for the industry standard ball bearings. The tight pressure fit of the 48 pieces of bearing makes the installation tricky. The strong resin brackets allow me to press hard on them during install. Once I got rid of the loose nylon rings of the suspension with ball bearings, it is a different running tank.
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    The Tongde plastic gearbox came with a long crack on the case. I got the metal gearbox, but was disappointed that the cases were made with soft alloy again. I replaced all the mounting M3 screw with hard steel ones. During work on the suspension, I had to remove and reinstall the gearbox. No matter how careful I was, I stripped one of the 6 screw threads on the gearbox. The standard 18mm M3 machine screw cannot be tightened and the 20mm screw is too long to fit. I have to customer made a 19mm screw to mount the gearbox securely.
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    Now, the TD M60 runs very well. But I am still scratching my head on how to fix the headlight LEDs.

    Leave a comment:


  • tank_me
    replied
    Originally posted by Rubicon99 View Post

    Yep he almost completely rebuilt the tank and its armor plating. Lot of work cosmetically but very little in the way of mechanical running upgrades.
    That's because Louis more focused on the accuracy of the tank than actually running it and he definitely doesn't battle his tanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rubicon99
    replied
    Originally posted by keilau View Post
    Just came across this build journal of the TongDe USMC M60A1 with ERA at the UK RC Tank Warfare site today. Apparently, a lot of our fellow members have been visiting this thread for months. Some very useful information.
    https://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/foru...ic.php?t=34429
    Yep he almost completely rebuilt the tank and its armor plating. Lot of work cosmetically but very little in the way of mechanical running upgrades.

    Leave a comment:


  • keilau
    replied
    Just came across this build journal of the TongDe USMC M60A1 with ERA at the UK RC Tank Warfare site today. Apparently, a lot of our fellow members have been visiting this thread for months. Some very useful information.
    Hi everyone, My latest build will be a US M-60A1 tank of the Gulf war period. The M60 is well known US tank of the cold war period and does not need much introd

    Leave a comment:


  • keilau
    replied
    Originally posted by RichJohnson View Post
    I just remembered Toad Man. How could I forget him. I just found he has a M60A1 RISE gallery here.

    https://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/m60a1_reactive.htm
    You are a treasure chest. Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • RichJohnson
    replied
    I just remembered Toad Man. How could I forget him. I just found he has a M60A1 RISE gallery here.

    Leave a comment:


  • keilau
    replied
    The USMC M60A1 RISC with ERA was given a lot of credit for the decisive win in tank battle during desert storm. I first thought that there ought to be lots of tank museum display or walk around for modeling reference. Was I wrong. There are a few exhibits of USMC M60A1 RISC, but the pictures are all behind closed door for member only. Many news clips for sure, but not useful for modeling. The Prime Portal collection RichJohnson referred to was the best and only one I saw.

    Further search on Google, I found a Takom 1:35 model kit of the USMC M60A1 RISC with ERA. I cannot find a kit manual of it, but I have a build review of this kit from my Finescale Modeler subscription. It has some nice pictures of the kit details. It shows the same tow cable holding stab as the Tongde. But the 30 meters scaled cable is very long compared to the Takom kit.
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    At the National Museum of the Marine Corps, The picture of the M60A1 at entrance shows the same cable holding stab at the end of the tank.
    By Kater Miller, NMMC Outreach Curator ​ The 100-Hour War The 30th anniversary of the ground assault phase of Operation Desert Storm began on 24 February 2021. The ground assault was a short...

    Many thanks to HDMM, tank_me and RichJohnson for your insight and suggestions.

    I will do no more work on the tow cable. Wash and painting were done. After the decals, I will declare victory. (I may write a summary of my Tongde M60 impression.) By far, it is the best running 1:16 scale RC tank among 5 other Heng Long's, no Tamiya or other high priced brands.

    Leave a comment:


  • keilau
    replied
    Originally posted by RichJohnson View Post
    Try googling for pictures of the real tank. Prime portal might have pictures http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/gre...60a1_rise_era/
    @RichJohnson​, that's the most comprehensive collection of pictures of US Marine M60A1 with ERA. One conclusion can be drawn from these pictures is that there is no one single way to hold the tow cables on a M60. I will model my Tongde M60A1 tow cable using the Tamiya manual.
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    There is a Cantigny park war meseum with a good collection of WW1 tank to Abrams. The tank park is administrated by the First Division Meseum with a desert storm theme. They have more than one M60 Patton tanks of the US Army A3 variety. The park is in Wheaton, IL and only 20 minutes from where I live.

    Leave a comment:


  • RichJohnson
    replied
    Try googling for pictures of the real tank. Prime portal might have pictures http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/gre...60a1_rise_era/

    Leave a comment:


  • keilau
    replied
    Originally posted by tank_me View Post
    That may be the correct location to mount them for the ERA equipped tank, but there is no way they would be routed through that lifting ring. A) the end connector probably wouldn't fit through the lifting ring, B) the cable would be too stiff to route it that way, and C) you want to be able to access the cables fast in a combat zone. Any fiddling around trying to get them through a lifting hook would be time you don't have when you are being shot at or need to move fast. Tow cables on an M60 or any modern US tank are HEAVY and rough. You want to handle them with gloves and usually more than one person. The cable itself will cut your hands if manipulated ungloved.
    Points well taken. I should not have followed the Tongde manul blindly to route the cable through the lifting ring. I was not able to find a picture of this M60 version so I followed the Tamiya (1:35 scale) plastic model manual.

    I am trying to figure out how much mod I should make. Tongde molded the tow cable hook to the top of the cable stab. To make it correct, I will have to cut the stab off the hook, glue it to the tank and position the cable hook through the stab. Probably glue the hook to the top of the fence. I will give it a try tonight and post the picture.
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  • tank_me
    replied
    That may be the correct location to mount them for the ERA equipped tank, but there is no way they would be routed through that lifting ring. A) the end connector probably wouldn't fit through the lifting ring, B) the cable would be too stiff to route it that way, and C) you want to be able to access the cables fast in a combat zone. Any fiddling around trying to get them through a lifting hook would be time you don't have when you are being shot at or need to move fast. Tow cables on an M60 or any modern US tank are HEAVY and rough. You want to handle them with gloves and usually more than one person. The cable itself will cut your hands if manipulated ungloved.

    Leave a comment:

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