Metal upgrade for a TongDe M60A1 to improve reliability

[Rubicon99]

The Tongde M60A1 with the TD plastic tracks is an excellent runner on concrete or other pathed road, It runs poorly on the backyard lawn which is my primary RC tank playground. Probably result of poor traction.

On the other hand, my HL Leopard 2A6 with the 390 Heng Xin gearbox and Tamiya nylon track runs well on all surfaces.

I already have the Tamiya nylon tracks and HL Abrams sprockets ready for the TD M60. But need the right gearbox to use them on the TD M60.

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Generally the TD plastic and Tamiya "dual pin" tracks are both excellent and both have advantages and disadvantages depending on where and how hard the tank is driven.

The cost vs reward comes at the extreme ends of the spectrum. The Tamiya are more scale in width and have more grip for climbing challenging obstacles. The TD are more correct in treaded pattern but have a little difficulty on extreme obstacles.

[keilau]

I started the metal upgrade of the Tongde M60A1 in the fall of 2023. After I upgraded the ball bearings to the road wheels, I praised the Tongde M60A1 as the best aligned and best running tank I have. All the test runs were done indoor in the basement in winter and spring time. After the snow melt, I took the Tongde M60A1 to my backyard and the biggest disappointment striked me. The Tongde M60A1 does not run well at all on the grass lawn. It turns awkwardly and runs uneven straight line speed. My 2005 Pershing with modified HL metal tracks runs 10 times better than the Tongde M60A1 on grassy lawn.

The Tongde M60A1 has some inherent disadvantage. The narrow hall prevent upgrade to 390 or more powerful motor with the TD metal gearbox. The DKLMRC style PDSGB gearbox (HL calls it dual current) seems to be the only path to better drive motors.

The heavier TD metal tracks may help too. I chose the Tamiya tracks based on earlier experiences. The TD metal tracks are an unknown factor to me. I hope to get these upgrade done before the early snow hits Chicago.

[RichJohnson]

In my experience all tanks perform poorly in grass. My m60s however run better than my leoaprd and Shermans.
that is, my m60s with bigger batteries. The m60 that still has that stock Lion. Battery runs like crap in grass and snow and everything but plain dirt.

[keilau]

In my experience all tanks perform poorly in grass. My m60s however run better than my leopard and Shermans.
that is, my m60s with bigger batteries. The m60 that still has that stock Lion. Battery runs like crap in grass and snow and everything but plain dirt.

I totally agree that grass lawn is a very difficult surface for 1:16 scale RC tanks. I have toned my 5 Heng Long, Pershing, Merkava, Leo2A6, T34/85 and Sherman, to the proper total weight, fit them with a good motor and gearbox and a heavy track. All of the HL drive well on grass lawn. I have posted all my metal mod on this forum.

I am still working on the Tongde M60A1. The Tongde M60A1 has some inherent disadvantage. The narrow hall prevent upgrade to 390 or more powerful motor with the TD metal gearbox. The DKLMRC style PDSGB gearbox (HL calls it dual current) seems to be the only path to better drive motors. I have an early edition M60. The lower chassis used thin walled plastic which makes it too light in weight.

All the OEM Lithium Ion battery from HL and TD are craps. I have been promoting using DIY pack using high quality 18650 or 26650 cells.

https://www.hobbysquawk.com/forum/rc-cars-tanks-trucks-and-more/rc-tanks/362026-the-basic-about-heng-long-rc-tank-battery-packs

[keilau]

It should easily fit 390 motors.

The M60 can as well BUT it is a VERY tight fit and some additional shielding is needed on the gearbox covers to prevent the motor terminals from making contact with the metal covers and causing a "short". This can be minimized if one also grinds down the covers to make a little more clearance.

You are right. On the TD M60, the distance between the gearbox side wall is 52.7mm. It should accommodate the 47 mm 390 motor depth. I do need to bend out the 390 motor terminals and put heat shrink tube over them for proper electrical insulation. If it works, I will probably shelf the PDSGB gearbox for M60 idea.

I ordered the HL 390 red motor from toucanhobby.com. They have it in US stock.

My TD M60A1 already has metal sprockets, metal idler wheels and road wheel ball bearings. I am very interested in trying out the TD metal tracks on grass lawn. If you have a pair of unused TD M60 metal tracks, I am very interested in acquiring them from you. Please, PM me an offer.

[Rubicon99]

You are right. On the TD M60, the distance between the gearbox side wall is 52.7mm. It should accommodate the 47 mm 390 motor depth. I do need to bend out the 390 motor terminals and put heat shrink tube over them for proper electrical insulation. If it works, I will probably shelf the PDSGB gearbox for M60 idea.

I ordered the HL 390 red motor from toucanhobby.com. They have it in US stock.

My TD M60A1 already has metal sprockets, metal idler wheels and road wheel ball bearings. I am very interested in trying out the TD metal tracks on grass lawn. If you have a pair of unused TD M60 metal tracks, I am very interested in acquiring them from you. Please, PM me an offer.

I simply bent the motor "terminal tabs" down/outward and added electrical tap to the opposite gearbox walls. This worked but I later went back and "dremeled" a little material out of each wall to add a bit of extra tolerance. I found that after running the M60 for a while I liked the 380s a little better as the 390s are bit overpowering for the plastic tracks. I could have switched back to the metal tracks but I don't like the all silver looks of them (meaning metal pads that should be black rubber) nor how they make the tank "wallow" in turns and stops (even though that is more realistic to the M60.

I have three pairs of new metal track and one slight used. PM and we can discuss a reasonable fair price for a set or two.

[keilau]

I simply bent the motor "terminal tabs" down/outward and added electrical tap to the opposite gearbox walls. This worked but I later went back and "dremeled" a little material out of each wall to add a bit of extra tolerance. I found that after running the M60 for a while I liked the 380s a little better as the 390s are bit overpowering for the plastic tracks. I could have switched back to the metal tracks but I don't like the all silver looks of them (meaning metal pads that should be black rubber) nor how they make the tank "wallow" in turns and stops (even though that is more realistic to the M60.

I have three pairs of new metal track and one slight used. PM and we can discuss a reasonable fair price for a set or two.

380 motor with TD plastic track drives well on hard packed dirt road of RC tank battlefield. 390 motor with TD metal track drives well on slightly soft and slippery grass lawn. It is my expectation.

I have darkened metal parts for my plastic model many time. It is not a difficult task for me. PM sent.

[MaverickTank]

You are right. On the TD M60, the distance between the gearbox side wall is 52.7mm. It should accommodate the 47 mm 390 motor depth. I do need to bend out the 390 motor terminals and put heat shrink tube over them for proper electrical insulation. If it works, I will probably shelf the PDSGB gearbox for M60 idea.

I ordered the HL 390 red motor from toucanhobby.com. They have it in US stock.

My TD M60A1 already has metal sprockets, metal idler wheels and road wheel ball bearings. I am very interested in trying out the TD metal tracks on grass lawn. If you have a pair of unused TD M60 metal tracks, I am very interested in acquiring them from you. Please, PM me an offer.

I drive my M60 on dirt, concrete, and grass. The metal tracks were far too heavy and dug into the grass badly. They also put an undue strain on the drivetrain and suspension. (When I state grass, I mean grass that is 3" tall and full of weeds)

In my opinion, you are better off with the plastic tracks. I was enjoying driving my M60 around the yard yesterday evening. With the plastic tracks, the tank performs better in grass than any of my other tank models, with no sign of binding or riding up the cog teeth or idlers.

[keilau]

I simply bent the motor "terminal tabs" down/outward and added electrical tap to the opposite gearbox walls. This worked but I later went back and "dremeled" a little material out of each wall to add a bit of extra tolerance. I found that after running the M60 for a while I liked the 380s a little better as the 390s are bit overpowering for the plastic tracks. I could have switched back to the metal tracks but I don't like the all silver looks of them (meaning metal pads that should be black rubber) nor how they make the tank "wallow" in turns and stops (even though that is more realistic to the M60.

I have three pairs of new metal track and one slight used. PM and we can discuss a reasonable fair price for a set or two.

I received the TD metal tracks today. They are heavy. Thank you for sending them by priority mail.

The HL 390 red motors are here already. I will get on with the change over and worry about darkening the tracks later.

[Rubicon99]

I received the TD metal tracks today. They are heavy. Thank you for sending them by priority mail.

The HL 390 red motors are here already. I will get on with the change over and worry about darkening the tracks later.

With the added weight of the track you might need to also add a bit more downward torque on you torsion bars to keep the tank from "sagging".

[keilau]

With the added weight of the track you might need to also add a bit more downward torque on you torsion bars to keep the tank from "sagging".

I have been thinking about the same thing remembering an video about the Tamiya RC tank torsion bar suspension tuning. There was no suggestion on how much to twist the torsion bar. I remember that Tongde torsion bar to be reasonably stiff from the road wheel ball bearing install. It is going to be a long trial and error process.

The TD tracks are heavy, but not excessively so. Hopefully, the M60 will not sag too much even if the torsion bar tuning fails. It is most important that the M60 levels evenly. It does not level too well now because I have the metal gearbox but not the metal track. I use a heavy battery pack to offset the gearbox weight. It helps. I am excited about how the metal tracks may improve the M60 driving.

[Rubicon99]

I have been thinking about the same thing remembering an video about the Tamiya RC tank torsion bar suspension tuning. There was no suggestion on how much to twist the torsion bar. I remember that Tongde torsion bar to be reasonably stiff from the road wheel ball bearing install. It is going to be a long trial and error process.

The TD tracks are heavy, but not excessively so. Hopefully, the M60 will not sag too much even if the torsion bar tuning fails. It is most important that the M60 levels evenly. It does not level too well now because I have the metal gearbox but not the metal track. I use a heavy battery pack to offset the gearbox weight. It helps. I am excited about how the metal tracks may improve the M60 driving.

Since you started the plastic versions the torsion bar were not factory set for the added weight of the metal components. As such It will not sit level. Adding a bit more torque to both side number 5 and 6 torsion bars will compensate for the metal gearboxes. You will also need to add more torque to the number 1 bars to bring the nose up after adding to the rear.

The TD M60s all lean slightly to the right so the right number 1 will need more torque added then the left. It leans to the right because of the "off set" arrangement of the road wheels to accommodate the torsion bars. (The real M60 as well as most other "modern" tanks have this same arrangement). The lean shows up more with the TD tank vs HL tanks because of the use of torsion bars vs torsion springs.

Tamiya also used torsion bars on two of their modern tanks and overcomes the leaning issues with the Abrams and Leopard 2 by using "over sprung" torsion bars which make the tanks bouncing on rough terrain vs the "under sprung" bars of the TD which make it very soft over rough terrain but produces the lean to the right.

It will take a bit of trial and error tweaking the of bars on your M60 to get everything just the way you want, but that is half the fun (not) when converting from plastic to metal components.

[keilau]

Since you started the plastic versions the torsion bar were not factory set for the added weight of the metal components. As such It will not sit level. Adding a bit more torque to both side number 5 and 6 torsion bars will compensate for the metal gearboxes. You will also need to add more torque to the number 1 bars to bring the nose up after adding to the rear.

The TD M60s all lean slightly to the right so the right number 1 will need more torque added then the left. It leans to the right because of the "off set" arrangement of the road wheels to accommodate the torsion bars. (The real M60 as well as most other "modern" tanks have this same arrangement). The lean shows up more with the TD tank vs HL tanks because of the use of torsion bars vs torsion springs.

Tamiya also used torsion bars on two of their modern tanks and overcomes the leaning issues with the Abrams and Leopard 2 by using "over sprung" torsion bars which make the tanks bouncing on rough terrain vs the "under sprung" bars of the TD which make it very soft over rough terrain but produces the lean to the right.

It will take a bit of trial and error tweaking the of bars on your M60 to get everything just the way you want, but that is have the fun (not) when converting from plastic to metal components.

@Rubincon99 thank you for all the invaluable information on tweeting the torsion bar. Your input makes it more fun.

[keilau]

I simply bent the motor "terminal tabs" down/outward and added electrical tap to the opposite gearbox walls. This worked but I later went back and "dremeled" a little material out of each wall to add a bit of extra tolerance. I found that after running the M60 for a while I liked the 380s a little better as the 390s are bit overpowering for the plastic tracks. I could have switched back to the metal tracks but I don't like the all silver looks of them (meaning metal pads that should be black rubber) nor how they make the tank "wallow" in turns and stops (even though that is more realistic to the M60.

I have three pairs of new metal track and one slight used. PM and we can discuss a reasonable fair price for a set or two.

The 390 motor and metal track upgrade took a bit longer that I expected due to 3 incidents. Before I details the process, I will say that the upgrade works very well on grass lawn. The TD metal track feels much heavier than similar HL metal track because of its all solid construction (no hollowed out back side). The upgraded M60A1 weights 11# 2.4oz. It is the heaviest tank in my collection. Despite its weight, the torsion bar suspension works well as is too.

The first delay is purely my own negligence. When I removed the first Tamiya380 motor, I used a Philips head driver that was 2 sizes smaller than that for the M2.5 screw and ended up stripping both screws. I blindly applied force without checking. I had to get out my screw extractor set to get the stripped screws out. The second motor was replaced without accident.

I replaced the original soft screws with hex head steel screws. I stripped one of the gearbox screw holes when I remounted the gearboxes. I have to make a new screw half mm longer the original one to securely mount the left gearbox. In my hex head screw set, I have 16mm and 20mm screws, but I need 17 and 18mm length ones.

With the 390 motors, space is really tight. The plastic tab that I used to reinforce the real panel mounting got in the way. I had to break it off and reattached them after mounting the gearboxes.

The metal track looks good and runs well. They are bare metal color now. I will darken them later. I get the metal tracks from Rubicon99 spare part at deep discount.

[Rubicon99]

Tight fit! How did yours run with the 390s?

[keilau]

Tight fit! How did yours run with the 390s?

Perform as I expect and similar to my other Heng Long's with 390 motors. The Tongde gearbox is 1:39 gear ratio only. It is a little too fast for fine maneuver such as in battle. I enjoy watching it in straight line dash on grass lawn. The heavier weight prevent it from slipping on grass lawn.

I have not check the "reduced speed mode" of the TDX transmitter yet.

[keilau]

Tight fit! How did yours run with the 390s?

Perform as I expect and similar to my other Heng Long's with 390 motors. The Tongde gearbox is 1:39 gear ratio only. It is a little too fast for fine maneuver such as in battle. I enjoy watching it in straight line dash on grass lawn. The heavier weight prevent it from slipping on grass lawn.

I have not check the "reduced speed mode" of the TDX transmitter yet.

My left hand neighbor and I both have 1/3 arca lots. The builder made our open space adjacent to each other creating a good space for tank running. The lawn has fairly uneven terrain. The lawn is well manicured and kept to 2" high. The lawn is too slippery for tank battle or sharp turning of the tank, but ideal for buggy type running.

The Tongde and Heng Long radio runs similarly with one major difference. All the HL radio (TK6.0S, 7.0S and 7.1) reach 70 feet or further, to the border of my property. The TD radio (series 2) range is about 40 feet.

After I upgraded the HL Leopard 2A6 radio to TK-7.1, I have a HL TK-6.0S radio in reserve. I will replace the TDX with the 6.0S.

[Rubicon99]

Perform as I expect and similar to my other Heng Long's with 390 motors. The Tongde gearbox is 1:39 gear ratio only. It is a little too fast for fine maneuver such as in battle. I enjoy watching it in straight line dash on grass lawn. The heavier weight prevent it from slipping on grass lawn.

I have not check the "reduced speed mode" of the TDX transmitter yet.

Yep that sounds about right. You should see smoother more battle friendly handling with them when on the lower power setting.

Just an FYI, since I did not post anything back when I did the 390 swap, you are the first person that I have seen to officially post a 390 motor swap on a TD M60 using stock metal gearboxes👍👍.

Hopefully there will be more interest from others with heavy metal tracks following suit adding 390s and learning from your willingness to experiment.

Maybe even consider a separate thread just on the 390 swap. Its to good of info to be buried in this thread alone.

[keilau]

My left hand neighbor and I both have 1/3 arca lots. The builder made our open space adjacent to each other creating a good space for tank running. The lawn has fairly uneven terrain. The lawn is well manicured and kept to 2" high. The lawn is too slippery for tank battle or sharp turning of the tank, but ideal for buggy type running.

The Tongde and Heng Long radio runs similarly with one major difference. All the HL radio (TK6.0S, 7.0S and 7.1) reach 70 feet or further, to the border of my property. The TD radio (series 2) range is about 40 feet.

After I upgraded the HL Leopard 2A6 radio to TK-7.1, I have a HL TK-6.0S radio in reserve. I will replace the TDX with the 6.0S.

My Tongde M60A1 now has a Heng Long radio. It is a Tk-6.0S from the HL Leopard 2A6. It has enough control range to cover the backyard lawn. I installed a 2.5cm cooling fan blowing at the ESC end of the Tk-6.0S. I use it since I have some in my spare box. You can see from my picture that the TD metal tracks are still in ugly silver color. Darkening those tracks will be my last upgrade task for the Patton M60.