Official Freewing 90mm F-16 V2 EDF Jet Thread

[Airguardian]

Minute 5:00 is probably my favourite... :star_struck:

If that is refraining....

I didn't reply to any of the things XViper said, I was talking with EDF-Jetpilot.

[Evan D]

If that is refraining....

[Airguardian]

Following the popular sentiment I'll refrain from further replying to XViper (despite him explicity calling me out) for civility's sake.
I guess, to any grown up reading these pages, enough was already said for each to make their own informed opinion and judgements.

I completely agree with you and 2Bros, because I also fly all my jets like you, and it's simply much more fun, especially flying fighter jets, since you can easily perform real-world maneuvers, which would otherwise be impossible.

It was because of you that I even came up with the idea of a true-to-original, rear-heavy center of gravity - thank you very much.

I'm genuinely happy to hear that! :)

However, I think it's crucial that if you prefer a tail-heavy setup, you can correctly adjust the rates, expo, and, most importantly, the gyros, and understand how these factors interact!

But I also think that one should accept the opinions of less experienced pilots, because our flying style isn't the best or most comfortable for every pilot.

I would never disagree with that. I think both Jon and I explicitly remind pilots that our setups are not exclusively a CG thing. Pretty much everytime I recommend an aft CG setting on a forum, I mostly always try to warn about the high expo required for that to work and to suggest pilots to perform changes in small increments, rather than jumping straight to this or that CG.

And then again, apples to apples, and oranges to oranges... One thing is to recommend the use of slightly less nose heavy CGs than manufacturers typically recommend. This alone already usually helps improve model performance and safety of operation by huge margins. No gyro nor tail heaviness involved, that only comes if you keep moving the CG back. Then another thing is the extreme setups you, Jon and I (along others) may run bringing the jet capabilities to the limit by pushing the CG past the neutral point and relying on artificial stabilization just like full scale jets.
Well, of course that's an advanced setup that only profficient pilots (not just in flight skill but technical knowledge) should attempt. I would think that these things should be pretty self evident and I try to convey that message (what setups are okay, and which ones are 'extreme' whenever I'm giving a recommendation. And as far as I've seen Jon's videos (not all of them but quite a bunch) I never got the feeling that he was dishonest about the way he was portraying his setups. Heck, he openly refuses to fly stock setups and mostly discloses that at the beginning of most of his videos, clearly stating that he aims at showing what's the ultimate potential about what said models are truly capable of. I don't know how much clearer can one make these sort of claims.

Anyway, long story short, I don't consider one needs a gyro or to be superman to run a slightly more balanced CG setup.
If one choses to bring it to the extreme, then yes, skills of all types are a must and gyros very welcome, and at some point, also required. ;)

Beginners and recreational pilots usually don't enjoy flying with a tail-heavy center of gravity. I think xviper is thinking along these lines.

Well, at the risk of becoming boring let me emphasize on the same again:
A true tail heavy setup (As in: actually unstable, negative longitudinal static margin in engineering terms) is going to be a bunch for most pilots. Can even be for skilled pilots.
That's one thing.

But moving CG back from excessive nose heavy recommendations to a more reasonable, non-tailheavy position will actually let pilots enjoy flying much better. Not just the acro junkies but also the newbies and the 'self-dubbed' scale folk.
Construing that as 'tail-heaviness' is typically either ignorant or dishonest. Not accusing you of any of that though, but I mean, that's something I'm often replied/attack with when I give a CG recommendation, typically by pilots who irrationally defend manufacturers recommendations as biblical gospel. Manufacturers are people too, and subject to error just like the rest of earthling subjects, myself included. ;)

But as I said, for me there is nothing better or more beautiful to fly than an F-16 or F-22 with a tail-heavy center of gravity, 70-80% expo with full servo travel on all control surfaces, and a perfectly tuned gyro setting

Right???


And then to film it in slow motion and watch all the fast surface corrections... aaaaaaah!
(Helpless drooling intensifies)

[Aros]

Agreed. Words have been said and we can move on from this point.

[Evan D]

Not sure what people call an "attack" now. I saw some criticism with an explanation of why. I know people have called me names and when called out about it said they were just joking. Can we let it drop now?

[xviper]

I'm pretty sure you can say this without having to attack me and my channel, though. If you don't like what we do, go watch one of the hundreds of other RC channels flying the way you want them to. Nobody's forcing ya to watch what we post.

(I was nice of your buddy, the Spanish guy, to alert you to what's happening here. Good for him. "Mommy, mommy, there's a bad man in the playground saying bad things.")

I have most certainly done just this, not that you have any power or influence to command me to do so. In your channel you profess "my way or the hiway". Nobody else's opinions or statements are worth considering. "I'm the one true, definitive authority on all things flying RC." You lack the humility that is truly needed to make yourself believable (or likeable). "Attacking", as you call it, isn't a stranger to you, is it? I recall some of the confrontations you've had with certain hobby sellers that were construed as "attacks", which you defined as critiques and criticisms. I guess it depends on which way you're facing, doesn't it? How'd that "war" work out for ya? You "attack" company products all the time but of course, you don't call it that. I've seen you "attack" Motion. I've seen you attack Freewing. I've seen you attack Banana. I've even seen you come very close to "attacking" this forum (from the safety of RCGuppy). Some took offense, some just didn't say anything - just like you. Of course, your first response will be, "I've never done that". Yeah, OK.
I remember way back when, some of your goofy (aka: stupid) antics that were heavily criticized by many. I stopped watching then but a day came when it appeared you may have changed to a better attitude and a more humble demeanor. I started watching again. Well, as you say, there are "hundreds" (more like thousands) of other RC channels from those who aren't quite as desperate or needy to become an internet "influencers".
Post whatever you want now. I'm sure you've got plenty to say. No matter. We shall never interact again. Remember, there are "HUNDREDS" of others to interact with.

[Jon @ Two Bros RC]

THIS! The exact point I was making.

I'm pretty sure you can say this without having to attack me and my channel, though. If you don't like what we do, go watch one of the hundreds of other RC channels flying the way you want them to. Nobody's forcing ya to watch what we post.

[EDF-Jetpilot]

THIS! The exact point I was making. To make a blanket statement without specific caveats is a tremendous dis-service. And in most of the blanket statements, use of gyros is a "between the lines" easter egg hunt and a separate entity from the CG talk. Those beginning their journey in jets are usually not gyro literate and they do NOT fly like these guys who warn against flying at recommended CG. Are companies like Freewing, Flightline unknowledgeable when they R&D planes? Derelict in their recommendations? Is Motion RC, in their set up videos, flight reviews and recommendations acting irresponsibly to their customers? I think not. Are buyers crashing their planes left, right and center when starting out at the book CG and gyro/no gyro? I think not. Motion and other Freewing sellers would be getting inundated with demands for refunds. So, are they?

Absolutely, I also think that such statements should be told the whole truth, otherwise beginners are completely lost and misinformed. Anyone who watches 2Bros regularly knows that it has nothing to do with flight school for beginners, but only with what you can get out of a model with today's gyros, i.e., (Spektrum-AS3X+)further training. I find that very interesting for good pilots who want to explore such things – then 2Bros is the king for me, where you can learn a lot. The 2Bros channel is not for beginners, definitely not.

[xviper]

I would advise every pilot against attempting to fly jets with a far-back center of gravity without a gyro; it's bound to go wrong.

THIS! The exact point I was making. To make a blanket statement without specific caveats is a tremendous dis-service. And in most of the blanket statements, use of gyros is a "between the lines" easter egg hunt and a separate entity from the CG talk. Those beginning their journey in jets are usually not gyro literate and they do NOT fly like these guys who warn against flying at recommended CG. Are companies like Freewing, Flightline unknowledgeable when they R&D planes? Derelict in their recommendations? Is Motion RC, in their set up videos, flight reviews and recommendations acting irresponsibly to their customers? I think not. Are buyers crashing their planes left, right and center when starting out at the book CG and gyro/no gyro? I think not. Motion and other Freewing sellers would be getting inundated with demands for refunds. So, are they?

[EDF-Jetpilot]

Firstly. It's nice to be nice. And. Divide. I've had similar trouble getting good at this one. Don't feel alone don't think U mentioned. R U 6 or8s. Last flight was 10mm back. 8s at1100 grams of 6000 HRB. Does not like slow in the turns. Landing my main concern..
I will get good. If it kills me. Or the plane. Have fun

276
Exactly, the setup is very important, it has to be correct. After that, practice, practice, practice, and practice some more, then you'll soon master it and always land nice and softly! I know from my own experience and I wish you the best. But without being at the flying field 2-3 times a week, it will be difficult!

[EDF-Jetpilot]

Well I can tell you the combination of the stock elevator neutral position being way too much down, along with the expo, caused me to always be on the steep end of the expo curve. Hence elevator input was extremely twitchy with sub-mm stick travel deciding on whether things were going up or down. This combined with the already sensitive ailerons at 40% expo to an uncontrollable airplane. There wasn't even time to reach for the trim. Putting the elevator neutral at the lower mold line was the most important fix. I can fly the jet at 40% expo but it's a bit sensitive, 65% is a bit too much for me. I'll probably go somewhere in the middle next.

The stock 110mm CG is okay for "scale flying", i.e. not cobra maneuvers, provided there's enough expo - at least for me. I'm sure there's people with finer motor control who can handle 40% expo at a rearward CG with no gyro but that's not me.

The hard landing on the second flight did cause the two wood spars to break and a small crack to form in the foam, but that was easily fixed and reinforced. Last few landings were super smooth, though I'm definitely still cautious with high AOAs.

474
I would advise every pilot against attempting to fly jets with a far-back center of gravity without a gyro; it's bound to go wrong. With a gyro, however, and properly calibrated, it's child's play, and a jet flies much more smoothly, realistically, true to scale, and easily than would be possible without one. You can essentially let the jet continue flying in any attitude without any corrective inputs; the aircraft won't deviate from its path, nearly even in wind – that's what flying is all about! ...That's fun and gives you security!!!

[EDF-Jetpilot]

They mostly do for the most part.
And it's kinda rich to see you calling me rude and obnoxious just after speaking of Jon the way you just did.

To each his own, I guess.

And no, it's absolutely NOT irrelevant as demonstrated by Jon and myself along many other people who have succesfully applied the same general lines of fullscale aircraft design criteria to our models setup, substantially improving our models performance in terms of flight envelope, controllability, flight efficiency, etc.

I certainly don't plan on leaving any of the forums I post in, but feel free to ignore my posts, if my words offend you that much.

I actually fly pretty much like you; that's my flying style with EDF jets. I love it and have been following you and 2Bros on YouTube for a long time... your videos challenge me, especially 2Bros' setups, which I often copy and have fun with! But I also think that one should accept the opinions of less experienced pilots, because our flying style isn't the best or most comfortable for every pilot. The nicest compliments, however, are those we receive at the flying field, where fellow pilots are often amazed and congratulate us on our beautiful landings or maneuvers and our scale-like flying style... I fly quite smoothly, but with large control inputs in the appropriate maneuvers. I just wanted to briefly confirm what you're saying, but also ask that others accept those who don't share our opinion on flying styles. It was because of you that I even came up with the idea of a true-to-original, rear-heavy center of gravity - thank you very much.

[EDF-Jetpilot]

Oh, and another thing...

I personally think that recommending such nose heavy setups actually curtails pilot development, regardless of whether you want to fly smoothly, or radically aerobatic.

Extreme nose heavy planes are NOT well behaved and constantly fight pilot inputs. This doesn't make pilots learn faster, but rather becomes a drag to their development.

That's not to say that a gyro-run tail heavy setup is ideal for newbie pilots, it's obviously not, but there's a lot of leeway in between. Neutrally balanced or just slightly nose heavy planes are much more beginner friendly than excessively nose heavy models.

Even full scale airplanes offer forward CG limitations just as much as they give rearwards CG ranges. That's not just because, you know... ;)

I completely agree with you and 2Bros, because I also fly all my jets like you, and it's simply much more fun, especially flying fighter jets, since you can easily perform real-world maneuvers, which would otherwise be impossible. However, I think it's crucial that if you prefer a tail-heavy setup, you can correctly adjust the rates, expo, and, most importantly, the gyros, and understand how these factors interact! Most pilots (in my experience) can't properly adjust gyros and have limited experience with them – if you set a gyro incorrectly, your jet will crash, regardless of whether it has a nose-heavy or tail-heavy center of gravity! Beginners and recreational pilots usually don't enjoy flying with a tail-heavy center of gravity. I think xviper is thinking along these lines. But as I said, for me there is nothing better or more beautiful to fly than an F-16 or F-22 with a tail-heavy center of gravity, 70-80% expo with full servo travel on all control surfaces, and a perfectly tuned gyro setting – and that was already the case on my first flights!

[f4u ausie]

Firstly. It's nice to be nice. And. Divide. I've had similar trouble getting good at this one. Don't feel alone don't think U mentioned. R U 6 or8s. Last flight was 10mm back. 8s at1100 grams of 6000 HRB. Does not like slow in the turns. Landing my main concern..
I will get good. If it kills me. Or the plane. Have fun

[Dividebysandwich]

Well I can tell you the combination of the stock elevator neutral position being way too much down, along with the expo, caused me to always be on the steep end of the expo curve. Hence elevator input was extremely twitchy with sub-mm stick travel deciding on whether things were going up or down. This combined with the already sensitive ailerons at 40% expo to an uncontrollable airplane. There wasn't even time to reach for the trim. Putting the elevator neutral at the lower mold line was the most important fix. I can fly the jet at 40% expo but it's a bit sensitive, 65% is a bit too much for me. I'll probably go somewhere in the middle next.

The stock 110mm CG is okay for "scale flying", i.e. not cobra maneuvers, provided there's enough expo - at least for me. I'm sure there's people with finer motor control who can handle 40% expo at a rearward CG with no gyro but that's not me.

The hard landing on the second flight did cause the two wood spars to break and a small crack to form in the foam, but that was easily fixed and reinforced. Last few landings were super smooth, though I'm definitely still cautious with high AOAs.

[Airguardian]

They mostly do for the most part.
And it's kinda rich to see you calling me rude and obnoxious just after speaking of Jon the way you just did.

To each his own, I guess.

And no, it's absolutely NOT irrelevant as demonstrated by Jon and myself along many other people who have succesfully applied the same general lines of fullscale aircraft design criteria to our models setup, substantially improving our models performance in terms of flight envelope, controllability, flight efficiency, etc.

I certainly don't plan on leaving any of the forums I post in, but feel free to ignore my posts, if my words offend you that much.

[xviper]

Real aircraft do NOT always translate well into foamie RC planes, so your statement about us knowing more than those companies is rude, obnoxious and completely IRRELEVANT and pointless. Once again, you've proven to me that there is absolutely no reason for us to have any interaction on any forum. Bye Bye.

[Airguardian]

The previous poster did take my expo suggestion, something you conveniently omitted.

Was it the CG that fixed his issue or the expo setting... ? ;)

Anyway, I find it rather amusing that you brand as 'crazy' what's literally the default modern fighter jet design strategy. Yes, I'm talking about the full scale ones. They aren't made crazy nose heavy, rather tail heavy unstable and computer assisted. Even the older models that are CG-stable in their original conception, use small static margins, not the God-awful nose heavy suggestions we usually see in the foamy EDF market.

So apparently, you and your buddies at the field know better than Boeing, Lockheed, EADS, SAAB, Dassault and Sukhoi combined... come on!

[xviper]

PS: Your depiction of Jon from 2BrosRC is mean, totally out of place and misleading. He does often explain a lot more than what you are implying. He certainly explains a lot more than virtually any other youtube RC pilot by comparison.

Yes, we shall agree to disagree on many things. As for my depiction (I said "IMO") of 2 Bros, I and everyone I fly with (mostly jets) talk about this quite often. We take a lot of what what Jon says and see good sense in it (for what he does and how he flies). However, when it comes to extreme tail heaviness, we all just laugh and exercise extreme caution. We consider this practice to be "crazy" because we don't fly like that.
As for high alpha flight on real jets, that is air show stuff and NOT normal flying. You call it scale. We call it something completely different. We fly in a whole different world. I'm going to leave it at that because to continue would be pointless. I'll leave it up to the reader to use their own reason to believe who they want. And since the previous poster did NOT take your warning about NOT putting the CG back to stock and found greater success, well, I'll leave it at that also.

[Airguardian]

Glad that worked out!
Now, to enjoy the model!