Official Freewing 90mm F-16 Falcon Thread

[Hugh Wiedman]

JeremySean can't wait to hear how you like the tailerons. Aros & I live in the same "chicken coop" when it comes to trying tailerons out with the F-16. Phantom in his post above felt that tailerons made it corkscrew instead of an axial roll.

The only reason I set my take-off flaps at 16 mm was because it was just enough to get it off of grass smoothly with a moderate run and I like to keep them down until completing the first turn and want as much aileron authority as I can get if need be without over extending the servo while in flaperon mode. I'm sure it will take off great at 25 mm as well as land nicely there.

One other thing I can't stress enough. Keep your CG around 115-120, and no further back. I played around a lot with CG and even got it back around 130 once, which proved a disaster (but lived to tell about it with no visible damage). Changing the CG seemed to make very little difference in take-off distance or how it flew around. But on landing, if it is too tail heavy, it will come in nice enough, but at a speed that is just above stall speed, it will suddenly and without warning pitch up WITHOUT any elevator input, causing it to rise up, stall and drop like a wounded duck.

[Aros]

I've been too chicken to try any fancy mixing with either this 90mm version or my HSD 105mm version as far as tailerons go. Like Hugh, I tend to find the roll rate recommendations much too twitchy for my liking. I prefer dampened and scale (smooth, stable flight)...I would worry that a taileron mix would add in some twitchy/sensitivity that some may like, but I definitely do not in a F-16. It's just one of the beauties of the hobby...What works for some doesn't for others. We all have our style and preferences...Makes it fun!

[JeremySean]

That makes perfect sense, you're way ahead of me with the use of not only Flight Modes, but using tailerons as well. Your concept of trimming using FM1 is sound and using FM3 for flying and FM2 for landing and take-off is outstanding. Given your knowledge of mixes and programming, I think you'll love the F-16. The only thing I can't advise you on is the use of tailerons. I will tell you that I found the F-16 to be unusually aggressive in it's roll rate, even using the recommended book rates, so I'm not sure if tailerons are a benefit or will maybe even give you too fast a roll rate. I actually toned mine down a bit (and it still will spin like a top) and several others here have felt the same if I remember correctly. And keep in mind this is coming from someone who really likes flying his fleet of Extreme Flight 3D planes, with rates that give surface throws in the 45-80 degree ranges and roll rates that sometimes exceed my ability to follow. Hopefully someone will chime in here that has set there F-16 up with tailerons as well.

Regarding the 90% throw on landing flaps, don't forget that the key number there is the actual distance of travel of the flap (or aileron) which is only 23 mm which is less than aggressive. Generally with flaps, you may start out in the Flap System set-up menu with flaps up at say -100%, then take-off flaps at maybe -25% and landing at say +30% (so it goes from -100 all the way to 0 and then to +100% max, or +100% to -100% if it is reversed). So in actuality, I'm going less than 50% of the total I could have (90 points out of 200, not out of 100). I had to start at 0 for flaps up (instead of -100% or +100%) because my receiver is an AR 636 with a gyro and there are special programming concerns for gains and using it with flaperons. One issue is that the starting point of the flaps (which is also the 0 or neutral point of the ailerons) needed to be at 0, not -100 (or +100 if reversed), which would have put the servo arm way off from the center position and severely limit the available travel. My SU-30, which I also set up with flaperons and a 7 channel AS3X receiver is set at 0/+55%/+90% and the flap travel there is a very modest 10 mm and 15 mm, almost small enough to warrant training wheels. Separate individual flaps give you the ability to use 200% of a servo's travel (that is 100% in each direction from the center point), however, when using flaperons since the servo is "shared" for the aileron, you only get the use of 100% of travel from the center point.

That's makes sense.. I am using an 8 channel Spektrum Receiver. I believe the measurements will be between -100% to +100%... on my FMS F-18 its 0% to +100% either way I'll make sure the flaps are at 23mm to 25mm. The manual says to put it at 25mm only for both take off and landing. I may just do that and put the Flap-to-Elevator mix to -6 in the first position and -11 in the second position like you said earlier.

What I hope for really, to take off using Tailerons and flaps down, then flying using tailerons only and flaps up (tailerons + ailerons seems to be too much roll) then land using flaps down with -11% mix and tailerons.. I would like to use just one flightmode the whole time..... Tailerons + Flaps.... The real F-16's switch between Tailerons only, then Tailerons + Ailerons.... I live right next to Luke AFB.... See them all the time.

[Phantom]

I initially had mine setup as

1. Conventional ailerons and elevators
2. Flaperons @ flaps 15 degrees and tailerons.
3. Flaps @ 70 degrees and tailerons.

The roll motion was less axial more of a corkscrew, didn't like it. On short final any correction made the tail wish wash back and forth. I'm blaming it on the tailerons. I have this set up on my Flexjet and it works well, but no matter how I adjusted the rates, throws or expo on the F-16 I wasn't happy with it.

My current setup is

1. Conventional ailerons and elevators
2. Flaperons @flaps 15 degrees and elevators
3. Flaperons @flaps 70 degrees and elevators.

Much more stable and predictable.

My 2 cents.

[Hugh Wiedman]

Hugh, thanks! Everything you said makes total sense. I have a DX8 so I put those settings in. Also, 90% is a lot of throw!! Hope it slows it down well. Here's how I got it set on the Flight Modes.

Flight Mode 1 - Ailerons, and Elevator, No Flaps or Flaperons (Normal Configuration)

Flight Mode 2 - Flaps only (disabled Flaperons) and Tailerons

Flight Mode 3 - Ailerons and Tailerons

I figure Flight Mode 1 will be for the Maiden, and I'll trim her out in this setting, then switch over to FM2 and FM3 to make sure they work just fine. Eventually I'd like to just take off and land on FM2 and then switch over to FM3 for flying... Does this make sense?

That makes perfect sense, you're way ahead of me with the use of not only Flight Modes, but using tailerons as well. Your concept of trimming using FM1 is sound and using FM3 for flying and FM2 for landing and take-off is outstanding. Given your knowledge of mixes and programming, I think you'll love the F-16. The only thing I can't advise you on is the use of tailerons. I will tell you that I found the F-16 to be unusually aggressive in it's roll rate, even using the recommended book rates, so I'm not sure if tailerons are a benefit or will maybe even give you too fast a roll rate. I actually toned mine down a bit (and it still will spin like a top) and several others here have felt the same if I remember correctly. And keep in mind this is coming from someone who really likes flying his fleet of Extreme Flight 3D planes, with rates that give surface throws in the 45-80 degree ranges and roll rates that sometimes exceed my ability to follow. Hopefully someone will chime in here that has set there F-16 up with tailerons as well.

Regarding the 90% throw on landing flaps, don't forget that the key number there is the actual distance of travel of the flap (or aileron) which is only 23 mm which is less than aggressive. Generally with flaps, you may start out in the Flap System set-up menu with flaps up at say -100%, then take-off flaps at maybe -25% and landing at say +30% (so it goes from -100 all the way to 0 and then to +100% max, or +100% to -100% if it is reversed). So in actuality, I'm going less than 50% of the total I could have (90 points out of 200, not out of 100). I had to start at 0 for flaps up (instead of -100% or +100%) because my receiver is an AR 636 with a gyro and there are special programming concerns for gains and using it with flaperons. One issue is that the starting point of the flaps (which is also the 0 or neutral point of the ailerons) needed to be at 0, not -100 (or +100 if reversed), which would have put the servo arm way off from the center position and severely limit the available travel. My SU-30, which I also set up with flaperons and a 7 channel AS3X receiver is set at 0/+55%/+90% and the flap travel there is a very modest 10 mm and 15 mm, almost small enough to warrant training wheels. Separate individual flaps give you the ability to use 200% of a servo's travel (that is 100% in each direction from the center point), however, when using flaperons since the servo is "shared" for the aileron, you only get the use of 100% of travel from the center point.

[JeremySean]

Hugh, thanks! Everything you said makes total sense. I have a DX8 so I put those settings in. Also, 90% is a lot of throw!! Hope it slows it down well. Here's how I got it set on the Flight Modes.

Flight Mode 1 - Ailerons, and Elevator, No Flaps or Flaperons (Normal Configuration)

Flight Mode 2 - Flaps only (disabled Flaperons) and Tailerons

Flight Mode 3 - Ailerons and Tailerons

I figure Flight Mode 1 will be for the Maiden, and I'll trim her out in this setting, then switch over to FM2 and FM3 to make sure they work just fine. Eventually I'd like to just take off and land on FM2 and then switch over to FM3 for flying... Does this make sense?

[Hugh Wiedman]

Can someone show their flap to elevator mix??

Jeremy, I'm going to give you my settings and I hope this isn't confusing for you:

Since I use Flight Modes assigned to the flap switch, I can individually trim both elevator and aileron, in flight, with the trim switches and that setting is saved at each flap setting. The "mix" on elevator compensation I initially put into the Flap System set-up was only a starting point to be further refined in Flight on the maiden (or any subsequent flight if need be). The most accurate way I can give you the numbers I used for the elevator compensation is not the % I put in on the Flap System at the beginning, but the actual amount of the servo travel that you will find by looking in the servo setup screen and seeing where the travel is when you change flaps. If you are familiar with Flight Mode setup, you should understand this, if not, please go to post #675 on April 17th and subsequent posts where I gave Aros info on setting up Flight Modes if you are interested.

With that said, here are my numbers:

Take-off flaps deflection was 60% (flaps up =0%) or 16 mm, the important number
Landing Flaps 90% or 23 mm (If you use more or less on each of these the elevator compensation will vary accordingly)
Servo Travel take-off flaps (assuming 0 at flaps up) was -6
Servo Travel on Landing Flaps -11

If you use Flight Modes, then don't forget that as you trim elevator in flaps up, that WILL NOT cross over when you change flap settings. If not, then set your elevator compensation in the Flap System menu to -6 and -11 (assuming you use similar mm of deflection) and when you trim the elevator with flaps up, it will keep whatever trim you put in there and then add whatever compensation is in the Flap System settings.

Wow, I just took a really simple question and answered it like a politician. Sorry , this lock down has fried what little grey matter I had to begin with.

[Nike_Belli]

Thank you so much, mate. I'm new here

[JeremySean]

Can someone show their flap to elevator mix??

[gooniac33]

I remember you and another on here discussing the effects of the nose gear door. I never noticed any adverse effects from the nose gear door. Including crosswinds, never noticed anything, granted I've never flown it without the nose gear door, but I flown it in every wind condition I can think of, from having a 4,000mah on board all the way up to 8,400mah on board, never noticed anything.

I've never owned the red and white swiss version, I've seen people talk in vlogs and on YouTube about how that one flies differently than the camo one I have, but that's about it.

Yeah I hadn't noticed it before but it does it now. So I have it trimmed for gear down operation which makes it fly level with gear extended. But as soon as I click the switch it snaps to the regular setting. Its no big deal and something I can adjust for but its just annoying at this point. If there were a 1.5second delay it would be best..

[Phantom]

So far the only plane I used flight modes on is my F-5 because of the Nose gear door making it do weird things. My question is whether you can control how quickly the mode changes from one to the next? I am used to it now but when the plane switches it make a big correction.

I remember you and another on here discussing the effects of the nose gear door. I never noticed any adverse effects from the nose gear door. Including crosswinds, never noticed anything, granted I've never flown it without the nose gear door, but I flown it in every wind condition I can think of, from having a 4,000mah on board all the way up to 8,400mah on board, never noticed anything.

I've never owned the red and white swiss version, I've seen people talk in vlogs and on YouTube about how that one flies differently than the camo one I have, but that's about it.

[Hugh Wiedman]

So far the only plane I used flight modes on is my F-5 because of the Nose gear door making it do weird things. My question is whether you can control how quickly the mode changes from one to the next? I am used to it now but when the plane switches it make a big correction.

I could be wrong but it seems to me that it switches instantly when you change the switch it is tied to. I have it set up on over a dozen planes with flaps, all tied to the flap switch. All it really does is allow you to "fine tune" trim in flight at each position whatever surface you chose, then leaves the trim in that position only. Therefore, if you tie it to flaps and have a 4 second flap speed deployment, the trim setting changes instantly when you change flap settings but the flaps take 4 seconds to "catch up". The delay programmed into the flap deployment also affects whatever correction you've put in on the elevator at the same delay, but the F mode (which may be additional correction) happens immediately. This could result in a split second change in attitude, then corrects it, but I haven't noticed that much change as I am usually at a lower speed and the "fine tuning" trim from the F-Mode isn't that dramatic, maybe 2-4 clicks on elevator and/or aileron.

After I get a plane trimmed correctly for each flap, I like to go back and "return the main screen trims in each mode to 0 and put the correct adjustment in on the Flap Menu. To do this, after you trim it in flight, you can then go to the servo travel screen and see just how much is actually needed, write that down, then go back to each FM and reset the trim on the main flight screen to 0, go into the Flap Setting Menu and program in the correct elevator trims by watching the servo travel, then all delays will be the same.

[gooniac33]

So far the only plane I used flight modes on is my F-5 because of the Nose gear door making it do weird things. My question is whether you can control how quickly the mode changes from one to the next? I am used to it now but when the plane switches it make a big correction.

[Aros]

I'm so so glad it worked out for you, what did you find out was causing it to not work correctly at first? I was feeling that I sent you on a "wild goose chase" and have been wracking my pea sized brain trying to figure out why it wasn't working for you, but now that you got it, bet you'll use it with every plane that has flaps. I know it is a little more work setting it up on the first flight, but after that it takes a lot of the "landing pucker factor" out, something we all need to reduce. Unfortunately, now my only excuse for my crappy landings is my own shortcomings at the sticks and the far to common "brain freeze".

Yeah even F Modes can't save me from my own Dumb Thumbs from time-to-time but at least it's a point in the right direction!

So I am really not sure what the issue was. When I fired her up and tested on the ground, I noticed the aileron trim would reset to 0 (it's -24 without F Modes due to the camera on the port wingtip) in both flaperon F Mode settings. So all I had to do was set it to -24 for each F mode and it was fine. Thanks for nudging me...I've been meaning to look into Flight Modes for years but was just too lazy about it. I love it!

[Hugh Wiedman]

Will do gooniac33 !

Had two nice flights today... Hugh Wiedman , I owe you gratitude for showing me the Flight Mode Way. Here's a video of me trying it out for the first time. The first flight is me tinkering, adjusting trims and settling in for the approach and it was fantastic. LOVED the ability to adjust the trims in the air, knowing the F Modes would remember the settings. Worked like a charm! Second flight was just enjoying flying...Thanks buddy for the nudge!

I'm so so glad it worked out for you, what did you find out was causing it to not work correctly at first? I was feeling that I sent you on a "wild goose chase" and have been wracking my pea sized brain trying to figure out why it wasn't working for you, but now that you got it, bet you'll use it with every plane that has flaps. I know it is a little more work setting it up on the first flight, but after that it takes a lot of the "landing pucker factor" out, something we all need to reduce. Unfortunately, now my only excuse for my crappy landings is my own shortcomings at the sticks and the far to common "brain freeze".

[Aros]

Will do gooniac33 !

Had two nice flights today... Hugh Wiedman , I owe you gratitude for showing me the Flight Mode Way. Here's a video of me trying it out for the first time. The first flight is me tinkering, adjusting trims and settling in for the approach and it was fantastic. LOVED the ability to adjust the trims in the air, knowing the F Modes would remember the settings. Worked like a charm! Second flight was just enjoying flying...Thanks buddy for the nudge!

[gooniac33]

Great info gooniac33 ! Certainly food for thought and I definitely will explore multiple packs and see what I think. Thanks!

Do whatever works for you and then share what you come up with! Looking forward to hearing your findings!

[Aros]

Great info gooniac33 ! Certainly food for thought and I definitely will explore multiple packs and see what I think. Thanks!

[gooniac33]

gooniac33 Are you talking about favoring the RT 6S 35C 5800's over the 6S 70C 5500's? Curious because I love my RT 70C 5500's but if you are telling me the 35C 5800's are superior, I need to know that and you certainly have my attention! Especially since I am considering buying my 3rd HSD 105mm F-16 which has only ever been flown on the 5500/70Cs...I am always looking to maximize thrust/weight in that jet and the new version has a superior EDF unit which is the main reason why I am considering it, but the batteries are part of that equation as well so if there is a more powerful performance pack out there I am all ears!

Its all up to you of course... And not everyone looks at things the same way that I do. But here is my reasoning.. If you are flying a 70c 5500 and it is pulling more amps than the 35c 5800, while you may get an initial bump in power with the higher C version, the lighter weight and little bit of extra capacity will work out better in the long run. Higher C packs tend to really drop off once they get to the end of their charge as well. The 35c 5800 was always super consistent and would always warn me when it was time to come in if I went a little too far. The weight of the lighter packs is also something to really take into consideration when you look at where you fly. I used the 5800s in my FMS Equipped 80mm Mig-21 and also my FW 70mm F-16 with upgraded 14 blade fan. The mig could fly for 5 mins easy even when flown really hard. The F-16 would get almost 8-9 mins of laid back flying but when flown really hard I would still get close to 6 mins flight times with the pack only being slightly warm. Now I did use them in my high draw 90mm F-15 a couple times and they did fine as well! That plane was pulling 150amps peak. So its just up to you. Roaring Top makes awesome packs and if anything that 35c 6250 is really worth looking into since its pretty light for its capacity. Also look at the continuous discharge rate of 219amps instead of the C rating. Also actually load test the batteries and see how consistent the Amp drawings are on with the 35c packs. More consistent is better for getting longer flight time and lighter weight is better for good thrust to weight....

[Aros]

Roger that, thanks again Hugh!