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Official Freewing 80mm A-4E/F Skyhawk Thread

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  • Originally posted by Alpha.MotionRC View Post
    Hi HellHath, good to see you received yours. Our Stateside containers are anticipated to arrive later this week, and before they do I want to publish some insider information so it's fresh for all of you as you take delivery of your Skyhawks. Consider the following as Essential Tips from the Design Team. We've put years and over 500 flights by now on these aircraft, so, please take them to heart.

    Throws, Neutral Positions, and CENTER OF GRAVITY. I've summarized the manual's information into the image, below. Note that early versions of the printed instruction manual may be unclear as to the forward location from which we measure the CG. The inset picture shown here is correct, as are these real life photos that also show the relative neutral positions for your maiden flight.
    Click image for larger version Name:	image_15491.jpg Views:	1 Size:	64.3 KB ID:	94613
    Click image for larger version Name:	CG 190-195mm back from plastic gun port per the manual.jpg Views:	1 Size:	88.1 KB ID:	94619Click image for larger version Name:	CG inverted or upright --gear down or up.jpg Views:	1 Size:	97.6 KB ID:	94626





    Aileron neutral point. The upper surface of the aileron is flush with the upper surface of the wing. Note that this causes the aileron's TE at the outer tip to angle upwards. This is reflex, and this is normal.

    Click image for larger version Name:	Aileron neutral --TE.jpg Views:	1 Size:	56.8 KB ID:	94620 Click image for larger version  Name:	image_15497.jpg Views:	1 Size:	72.7 KB ID:	94624





    Elevator neutral point. Flush, as shown. Use the mold lines on the TE as visual reference. Sometimes I end up trimming ~1mm up elevator.

    Click image for larger version Name:	Elevator neutral.jpg Views:	1 Size:	53.5 KB ID:	94621

    Battery placement. Like many of our other 80mm EDFs, we designed this aircraft with the Admiral 6s 4000mAh and 5000mAh in mind. Recognizing that some of you hotrods may see the A-4's potential for an 8s 80mm setup so we designed the layout so the stock PNP 6s batteries (lightest recommended) would be near the front of the bay, not the far back of the bay. I recommend maidening with the heavier battery, if you're concerned about overcontrolling this agile aircraft. Note the battery position. We measure the CG without the ordnance attached. With or without the hump doesn't matter. Whether the gear up or down and whether the model is balanced upright or inverted does not significantly alter the CG point when balanced on fingertips (less than 5mm). When you've flown the model as much as we have, it's usually just "shove forward and fly" for anything between 4000-5000. But obviously for the first few flights, we recommend checking your model. Using too much epoxy to secure the tail, for example, can throw off the balance, so always check your own model before ascribing to my personal generalities.

    Click image for larger version Name:	Admiral 6s 4000 Placement.jpg Views:	1 Size:	67.0 KB ID:	94625Click image for larger version Name:	Admiral 6s 5000 Placement.jpg Views:	1 Size:	59.1 KB ID:	94623

    Landing:
    As shown in the flight videos posted thus far by Ryan, Tony, and others, the A-4 is a nimble aircraft that above almost anything else is designed to land as easily as possible for an aircraft of this layout. It's not a rocketship, nor did we design it to be. Early prototypes traded away too much slow speed stability for straight line speed. The Mirage and MiG-21 taught us that the majority of our customers appreciate a model that lands well, not just one that flies quickly in a straight line. I strongly, strongly suggest every A-4 pilot-to-be studies Ryan's video that shows, up close, just how slowly and stably the Freewing A-4 can land. DO NOT land hot. DO NOT over-control the elevator. Recall three years ago when I talked openly about each new Freewing aircraft being a progression in terms of handling and skill. The A-4 will reward pilots that fly the aircraft down slowly with minimum elevator input. If you find yourself pulling too much back pressure in your descent, you're going too fast. Recommend going around for another shot. The one thing that is tricky about landing the A-4 is that, as a delta [essentially], it can fly slower/steeper than it wants to land. The MiG-21 is a good example of an aircraft that can fly to a near standstill at 40 degrees nose high. The A-4 will do the same. Obviously both models can't land at that attitude, so the key to a greasy A-4 landing is the same as the MiG-21 --managing your speed in a near flat descent with nose ~5 degrees up. I don't land with flaps, but that's just me. I prefer to bleed speed off on my base to final then manage descent with small blips of throttle while holding the very slightest amount of back pressure. The smallest of flares just as the mains touch will grease a landing every time assuming your speed is correct.

    Faster or steeper approaches, or over-controlling the elevator, will cause problems. A good rule of thumb is, if the aircraft is ever below your head's height and the nose is greater than 30 degrees up, POWER TO FULL, STAY LEVEL, AND GO AROUND.




    Flying:
    Flying the Freewing 80mm A-4 Skyhawk is a bit of a non-event, by design. I've flown a bevy of A-4s.... GWS, LX, Jepe, YA, BVM, Tam, Skymaster. Our intent was to bring, as always, a good balance between price, performance, scale fidelity, and accessibility for as wide a range of EDF pilots out there. In the context of other 80mm EDF Scale Jets (the fantasy Avanti doesn't count!), I'm happy with the final result. For anyone who has flown one or two of our 80mm or 90mm EDFs and flies them comfortably, the Freewing 80mm A-4 Skyhawk should be well within your comfort zone. Just keep an eye on it. Let us know what you think! I
    Love it, can't wait to get mine. Motion better stock up on nose gear pins and retracts, A-10 pilots will bring that baby in scooting and break a pin..............:):) So, slow it down and hold the flarrrrrrrrre, sort of how you land the A-10??

    Comment


    • Originally posted by HellHathNoFury View Post

      I'll definitely be adding a 2nd battery strap..
      Thanx for showing the batt tray empty which visually confirms Alphas reply to my concern........no mod required for strap re-location :Whew:
      Warbird Charlie
      HSD Skyraider FlightLine OV-10 FMS 1400: P-40B, P-51, F4U, F6F, T-28, P-40E, Pitts, 1700 F4U & F7F, FOX glider Freewing A-6, T-33, P-51 Dynam ME-262, Waco TF Giant P-47; ESM F7F-3 LX PBJ-1 EFL CZ T-28, C-150, 1500 P-51 & FW-190

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      • Originally posted by DCORSAIR View Post

        Love it, can't wait to get mine. Motion better stock up on nose gear pins and retracts, A-10 pilots will bring that baby in scooting and break a pin..............:):) So, slow it down and hold the flarrrrrrrrre, sort of how you land the A-10??
        At least this Scootin Baby is no flying Slab of Pork so landings hopefully won't be Extra Crispy..LOL

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        • Can't wait for the Scooter to get here! Thanks for all the info. I'm about to maiden a new T-45 with the new Admiral 5000. My older bird used the more brick-like Admiral 5000 and balanced with the battery further aft. On the new bird with new battery, the battery is all the way forward. Does anyone here have any experience with the T-45 and this newer (slimmer) Admiral 5000?
          Meridian Aeromodelers, Meridian MS

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          • Disregard.
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            • Originally posted by RCjetdude View Post

              Compare the two...

              Click image for larger version  Name:	fetch-4.jpg Views:	1 Size:	30.8 KB ID:	94717
              Click image for larger version  Name:	fetch-5.jpg Views:	1 Size:	82.0 KB ID:	94718
              Do you see the difference at the front of the wing?
              Oh, OK I see what you are talking about...
              You are absolutely right, big difference on forward CG limit...
              I thought you were talking about the the photo's of the battery location...
              Good Eye Dude!!!

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              • So which CG location do we use then?? Is the manaul wrong on the original picture and the updated picture is the right CG??

                Did I miss something here?:Confused:

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                • Click image for larger version  Name:	 Views:	1 Size:	65.1 KB ID:	94748Click image for larger version  Name:	 Views:	1 Size:	36.6 KB ID:	94749
                  Originally posted by RCjetdude View Post

                  Hey Tony, where are you measuring from?
                  My 175mm CG was from the location shown in the new drawing. To achieve the correct CG at 195mm, measure from where the guns are installed. The forward line in the drawing wasn't moved to the right location. See attached drawing and photo.

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                  • Originally posted by xplaneguy View Post
                    My 175mm CG was from the location shown in the new drawing. To achieve the correct CG at 195mm, measure from where the guns are installed. The forward line in the drawing wasn't moved to the right location. See attached drawing and photo.
                    Ok, are you guys screwing with us? That's three different reference points to measure from... :)it looks like in Alphas picture of the bottom of the plane the CG is inline with that panel seam so I guess it doesn't matter where you start from as long as you end up at that seam.

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                    • Just come up with a measurement forward of the cheater hole, much easier I would think.?

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                      • Agreed. The reference point for the Cg should be a clear unmistakable point to measure from. On my T-45 they use those two vents on the top of the fuse. The problem there is you have to somehow translate that to the wing. All kinds of chances for error with stuff like that.
                        Make it simple. Please. Just show the recommended cg on the wing with a dimple or some kind of marking.
                        Meridian Aeromodelers, Meridian MS

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                        • In terms of the CG I will be referring to Alpha's post #556 when setting mine up as the first two pictures show very clearly how to achieve the correct CG.

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                          • Had slight hiccup with build today while checking all electronics.. The Retracts cycled once & ceased after that .. I spent quite a long period of time trouble shooting the issue by checking Ribbon connections etc & went so far as to resolder the board connections but to no avail.. Finally found the issue.. One of the mains ****e itself & one could smell the burnt odour like a fire when removed ..The bad Retract must have acted like a short shutting the system down.. Luckily I have spares from previous models especially Retracts.. I just replaced the motor & electronic board ..That solved the issue & all back on track for the build.. Check out the difference between the one use for the A-10 & the A-4 .. The one for the A-4 is even more unique than the one for the A-10.. Availability will be interesting as per the A-10 Retracts..One consolation is the electronics are compatible ..

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                            • Great to see that these are now being delivered into modelers hands. I have an A-4 on pre-order at Motion and would be interested to know how much room there is the battery bay. Living in New Zealand I don’t have access to the Admiral battery range which is a pity as these are smaller and lighter than the batteries that are available to me.

                              Can anyone who has got their hands on an A-4 say whether batteries such as my Turnigy Graphene 5000 65c’s will fit? These are 146mm*51mm*63mm compared to the Admirals that are 158mm*46mm*44mm.

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                              • Originally posted by Monty500 View Post
                                Great to see that these are now being delivered into modelers hands. I have an A-4 on pre-order at Motion and would be interested to know how much room there is the battery bay. Living in New Zealand I don’t have access to the Admiral battery range which is a pity as these are smaller and lighter than the batteries that are available to me.

                                Can anyone who has got their hands on an A-4 say whether batteries such as my Turnigy Graphene 5000 65c’s will fit? These are 146mm*51mm*63mm compared to the Admirals that are 158mm*46mm*44mm.
                                No issue if you lay Graphene flat ie 63 mm flat & 51mm up.. Heaps of room for 6s..

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                                • Great news thanks HHNF

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                                  • Originally posted by Monty500 View Post
                                    In terms of the CG I will be referring to Alpha's post #556 when setting mine up as the first two pictures show very clearly how to achieve the correct CG.
                                    Im with Tony on this. Measure from where the gun barrel is inserted. That is the only way 195 works. The aft line in the graphic that shows on the forward side of the wing fences is correct. It's the starting point needs to be looked at.

                                    We we're having a hard time with her until we moved it up.

                                    It makes sense to error on the side of caution and do early flights "nose heavy". If you hate it, move it back.

                                    On our media montage video we were slowly moving it forward. Our first flights rotation was happening too soon and sometimes uncommanded. It's a fantastic flyer that for Captain Mike and I flies predictable like a warbird now. Especially fly nose heavy when fully dressed. We maidened without he hump and no bullpups.

                                    More later.
                                    To reiterate, I'm with xplaneguy in this.

                                    Pilot
                                    Ryan

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                                    • Interesting discussion on the CG. I had many questions on how to best measure it on any type plane. I tried the finger balance method and there is just too much variability here. I tried the Great Plane CG machine and this one does not handle large models very well. After some research, I found two that are good; the EZ balancer and the Xicoy digital weight balancer. The EZ balancer is easy to use and is inexpensive, and can be done by one person. However, it takes some effort to mark and locate the CG, especially for inverted balancing (ward birds). The one I prefer is the Xicoy digital machine. It requires data inputs on three points, which I think takes out the guess work and is much more accurate. The Xicoy will cost you about $299 or less, depending on where you purchase it. I think this is a good return on an investment, especially if you can save one plane from CG error. I have been using to measure CG on some of my plane I though were accurately measured. Perhaps they would have flown without issues. The ones that I balanced with the Xicoy were spot on. The Xicoy has accessories that allows for inverted balancing as well. I am stilling searching the web for other ides though.

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                                      • Originally posted by xplaneguy View Post
                                        Click image for larger version Name:	 Views:	1 Size:	65.1 KB ID:	94748Click image for larger version Name:	 Views:	1 Size:	36.6 KB ID:	94749 My 175mm CG was from the location shown in the new drawing. To achieve the correct CG at 195mm, measure from where the guns are installed. The forward line in the drawing wasn't moved to the right location. See attached drawing and photo.
                                        Thank you sooo much Tony and Ryan for the clarification. This really helps. I hope everyone is aware of this so there are not a rash of problems with maidens. I remember Ryan mentioning liking it being nose heavy in the Media Montage video and now I understand what he meant.

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                                        • That Xicoy thing looks cool. That is how you CG full scale planes. We balanced a Cozy MkIV that way back in the 1990's. Weight scales and math.
                                          But for models, I have been using the finger-tip method of balancing for over 20 years. My planes usually leave the board with no trim required. I'll just use the finger-tip balancer.

                                          As for the A-4, I will go with Tony and Ryan on the CG.
                                          Meridian Aeromodelers, Meridian MS

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