Official Freewing 90mm F-4 Phantom II Thread

[Dwalkerp47]

Dave, You're not the first to do that, I've stalled my Camo a couple times and the Blue Angel once during landing. On the BA, got too far out like you and slowed down too much (lost some orientation so we probably have the same set of eyes ) but managed to get it back level and into a high alpha at about 60 degrees, punched it and it managed to drop to earth at that angle way out in a dirt field on the opposite side of a canal (thought it went in at first). A little damage to the front of the fuselage leaving it slightly bent. On the Camo, got it into a too high nose up on take-off, stalled left, then managed to get it level and in a hover for what seemed like an eternity, but got it moving forward again since I had enough altitude. The second time I started to get it to stall on approach, punched it, (the 12 blade inrunner helped there), got it level again but ended up 2 feet off the ground in another hover at 90 degrees. Reduced throttle and set it down tail first in the grass with no damage. One of the guys at the field who watched this craziness unfold commented "now that's something you don't see everyday". Have no idea how I got them to hover and couldn't do it again to save my life, but this airframe will stall relatively early. My opinion is that if you have an F-4 that ain't somewhat beat up and maybe a little bent, it needs to be flown a lot more by someone like me![/QUOTE]

Hugh & Dave, the same experience happened to me with my F-4. I have one of the original Freewing F-4's dating back over 3 years when they first started producing this Jet. A couple of months ago, I was not paying attention to my speed when I turned on to Base and ended up tucking the F-4. Fortunately, I got extremely lucky and was able to pull the Jet into almost a hover like you did Hugh and it "pancaked" in some tall grass behind some trees. When we walked up to the plane, I expected to see a pile of foam. The only damage was that the main gear on both wings had pushed up the foam on top of the wings. My repairs are all done except for some airbrushing. Based on your recommendation Hugh, I've upgraded the old Outrunner to the Freewing 4068-1835Kv 12 Blade Inrunner. I'm anxious to get this Bird back up in the air with the upgraded Fan. My F-4 is also equipped with the JP Hobby Brakes along with Xicoy Controller. I have Chris Wolfe's Multiburner installed along with a couple of Jet Whistles. Of all the EDF's that I own, this is my favorite Jet. The video was taken at this year's Jet Jam in Elizabeth, Indiana. Full Throttle with brakes on take-off was with the old Outrunner Fan. What a blast...

[Hugh Wiedman]

Well, feeling just a bit "snakebit" with my F-4s these days. I had one, got abut 22 flights on it until I let it get away from me a bit and took it out too far on downwind leg. Got disoriented because I couldn't see it all that clearly, and apparently got it too slow and stalled it turning final approach leg. Totally my fault. Lawn darted it.

I harvested all the innards of the crashed plane into an ARF Plus plane, same markings. On the maiden, it was flying well, but I got it a bit low turning final leg, "goosed" it a bit to make sure I had enough speed, and looked like it would be a normal landing. Wrong! About 5 feet above the approach end of the runway, it stalled and snapped to the right, landing pretty hard. Nothing damaged on the gear, ESC, all that stuff, but did tear the forward fuselage badly near the cockpit.

Davegee

Dave, You're not the first to do that, I've stalled my Camo a couple times and the Blue Angel once during landing. On the BA, got too far out like you and slowed down too much (lost some orientation so we probably have the same set of eyes ) but managed to get it back level and into a high alpha at about 60 degrees, punched it and it managed to drop to earth at that angle way out in a dirt field on the opposite side of a canal (thought it went in at first). A little damage to the front of the fuselage leaving it slightly bent. On the Camo, got it into a too high nose up on take-off, stalled left, then managed to get it level and in a hover for what seemed like an eternity, but got it moving forward again since I had enough altitude. The second time I started to get it to stall on approach, punched it, (the 12 blade inrunner helped there), got it level again but ended up 2 feet off the ground in another hover at 90 degrees. Reduced throttle and set it down tail first in the grass with no damage. One of the guys at the field who watched this craziness unfold commented "now that's something you don't see everyday". Have no idea how I got them to hover and couldn't do it again to save my life, but this airframe will stall relatively early. My opinion is that if you have an F-4 that ain't somewhat beat up and maybe a little bent, it needs to be flown a lot more by someone like me!

[davegee]

Dave you haven't lived...My F4 maidened accidentally necessitating new pants ...was up a tree needing a great crew of tree fellers (4 actually) to rescue it....put gear thru the wings on a long stall "hover" ..landed painlessly in a big bush...hit goal posts .. a fence post ...wing chewed by a dog .. looks to the right (a wee bit) even when flying left. The wings have been cracked so often they are now 90% epoxy............... But .. when it's in the air on a low pass or screwing up vertically with drop tanks and missile it is still the D B's

Wow! That makes me feel better! Great job and tenacity keeping those birds flying! I love the part about climbing a big tree to retrieve it!!👍😁

I had one time when I was l learning to fly years ago with a glo high wing trainer. Just me and another guy in the pattern, on a cold but brilliant winter's day. The other guy kept on getting into my airspace so I started moving it away from him to another area. Made the classic mistake of flying it through the sun, momentarily blinding me. I had no idea where the plane was. I instinctively cut the power to idle and added up elevator, hoping I'd give it some more time to find it and land it. After awhile, I knew it had to have landed (crashed) but still wanted to harvest what I could like the receiver, engine, etc. But I had no idea where it was.

An old man sitting and watching the whole thing yelled to me that he saw it, but it was far away. He suggested me taking my car to find it. Believe it or not, after driving out to where I thought it might have been from his comments and walking around for 10 minutes searching for it, I did finally find it. And it wasn't in pieces of wood like I suspected. It had landed itself, making some wheel tracks in the snow after it had apparently glided over some pine trees. I was amazed!

I drove the plane back to the field to show the guys. They were amazed too, and I resumed flying it. What a day!

davegee

[locharrow]

Dave you haven't lived...My F4 maidened accidentally necessitating new pants ...was up a tree needing a great crew of tree fellers (4 actually) to rescue it....put gear thru the wings on a long stall "hover" ..landed painlessly in a big bush...hit goal posts .. a fence post ...wing chewed by a dog .. looks to the right (a wee bit) even when flying left. The wings have been cracked so often they are now 90% epoxy............... But .. when it's in the air on a low pass or screwing up vertically with drop tanks and missile it is still the D B's

[davegee]

Excellent work! What fan do have in this one?

Well, feeling just a bit "snakebit" with my F-4s these days. I had one, got abut 22 flights on it until I let it get away from me a bit and took it out too far on downwind leg. Got disoriented because I couldn't see it all that clearly, and apparently got it too slow and stalled it turning final approach leg. Totally my fault. Lawn darted it.

I harvested all the innards of the crashed plane into an ARF Plus plane, same markings. On the maiden, it was flying well, but I got it a bit low turning final leg, "goosed" it a bit to make sure I had enough speed, and looked like it would be a normal landing. Wrong! About 5 feet above the approach end of the runway, it stalled and snapped to the right, landing pretty hard. Nothing damaged on the gear, ESC, all that stuff, but did tear the forward fuselage badly near the cockpit.

I took it home and repaired it. You probably wouldn't notice it got damaged and repaired, now. However, because of the damage to the fuselage and some crushing of the foam on one side. when I put it together, I knew it was slightly "bent" and would now have to be retrimmed to its new state of being.

Got a few flights in, including two today. Thank goodness for Flight Modes in my Spektrum transmitter, as I had a lot of trimming to do in all configurations in the 3 minutes I could keep it up flying. Now, although the flight control surfaces (mostly ailerons) show that it is "bent," it still flies pretty well. I think it will be a keeper for the time being, maybe eventually load everything into another ARF Plus someday. But for now, I think it flies well enough to use it as my F-4 trainer and get better flying it.

A couple pics taken from my local flying field this morning after the flights.

Davegee

[eastdave2]

Dear F-4 drivers

Are we sharing an 3D files for moving tail hook?

My F-4K is never going to take a wire on the Ark Royal otherwise!

Cheers Dave

[Hugh Wiedman]

"Maiden " today with the FMS 1850 ....to be honest, compared to the Freewing 1835 ........nothing in it. The grass is longer now than the last outing with the latter which might make a difference but in the air a difference was not apparent. HRB 6000 cells all above 3.8 so no change there either. So there we have it . What it does have going for it is a very nice sound.........Time wise I just stuck to my normal 3 1/2 min. from wheels up to wheels down. You'll be glad Hugh....saved you a lot of money !!

Thanks for the info, was wondering about that fan as well. So now for my next "pet recommendation", the SMC batteries. I'm not sure if you can get these overseas and if you can, they may be price prohibitive, but after testing tons of batteries and literally going broke doing so, I've settled on the SMC's being bar far the best. Compared to Admirals, Spectrums, Roaring Tops, Venoms, and even HRB's, the SMC's test out with the highest C (despite what labels say) and the most consistent and higher individual cell amps. Their batteries test out to the labeled C, which is higher than any 100C labeled competitor. HRB's aren't bad, in fact better than most I've tried, but not as good as SMC. For that higher actual C, they still don't weigh as much as you would expect. For example, comparing the SMC graphene 6200 40C (weight 814 gr) to the HRB 6000 50-C100C burst (weight 830 gr) I've tested the 2 batteries with that 12 blade 1835 Kv fan:

HRB 6000: Actual C (Progessive IR Meter) at 34C
Power Draw fully charged at 100% throttle: 123.2 Ah and 2782 Watts

SMC 6200: Actual C at 41C
Power Draw fully charged at 100% throttle: 127.6 Ah and 2947 Watts

I'm getting 4 minutes now with the SMC in both F-4's and come down in the 3.8 range as well. I think I'm getting a bit more time since I'm at full throttle less to achieve the same flight parameters (on grass as well), but can't guarantee that since I really have no idea what I'm doing out there, flying by the "seat of my pants", and those pants aren't always dry!

[davegee]

"Maiden " today with the FMS 1850 ....to be honest, compared to the Freewing 1835 ........nothing in it. The grass is longer now than the last outing with the latter which might make a difference but in the air a difference was not apparent. HRB 6000 cells all above 3.8 so no change there either. So there we have it . What it does have going for it is a very nice sound.........Time wise I just stuck to my normal 3 1/2 min. from wheels up to wheels down. You'll be glad Hugh....saved you a lot of money !!

glad you got it down safely on the maiden and got some good information on that motor's performance for comparison.

Cheers

davegee

[locharrow]

"Maiden " today with the FMS 1850 ....to be honest, compared to the Freewing 1835 ........nothing in it. The grass is longer now than the last outing with the latter which might make a difference but in the air a difference was not apparent. HRB 6000 cells all above 3.8 so no change there either. So there we have it . What it does have going for it is a very nice sound.........Time wise I just stuck to my normal 3 1/2 min. from wheels up to wheels down. You'll be glad Hugh....saved you a lot of money !!

[locharrow]

Rain and wind has prevented "maiden" with the FMS 90 since installed but managed a few fast runs yesterday (no flights because of a few dog walkers) seems very promising .....

[davegee]

davegee the existing stock 130 amp ESC is fine for either the 12 or 9 blade inrunner and I suspect would be OK for the FMS fan as well. Considering you have the 1835 Kv outrunner in it already, then I'm not sure there will be that much of an upgrade. I got mine when they first came out and both had the 9 blade 3748-1750 Kv outrunner (same fan in the older F-18 as well), so for me on the F-4's and F-18's, going to a 12 blade 4068-1835 Kv inrunner was a fairly substantial upgrade. You may be better off not wasting money on a somewhat minimal upgrade if you're already happy with the way it flies.

Thanks, Hugh. I'll certainly consider an upgrade down the line. I think one problem I have is that I am at over 5,000' MSL, and I know that that causes some degradation in performance versus sea level, probably with whatever I put in it. I just don't know if any extra punch from the upgraded fan will be enough to justify the cost.

I'm having to stand down from doing any flying and the maiden of the new F-4 I just got due to the flap switch breaking off on my DX18 transmitter. I didn't feel comfortable trying to work the flaps with the nub of the switch sticking out of the transmitter, especially for a high performance jet that will command all my attention, so I shipped it back to Horizon to get a new D switch put in. So, I'll have to wait probably until sometime next week to fly again. But I should get a good idea if the F-4 needs some more power for my field elevation, and my flying style once I can fly again. We'll see.

Appreciate all your good comments.

cheers

davegee

[Hugh Wiedman]

davegee the existing stock 130 amp ESC is fine for either the 12 or 9 blade inrunner and I suspect would be OK for the FMS fan as well. Considering you have the 1835 Kv outrunner in it already, then I'm not sure there will be that much of an upgrade. I got mine when they first came out and both had the 9 blade 3748-1750 Kv outrunner (same fan in the older F-18 as well), so for me on the F-4's and F-18's, going to a 12 blade 4068-1835 Kv inrunner was a fairly substantial upgrade. You may be better off not wasting money on a somewhat minimal upgrade if you're already happy with the way it flies.

[davegee]

Thanks for the info, Hugh. This old 1835Kv outrunner is still in great shape, considering I used to fly it in an SEA scheme F-4 years ago that is now hanging in a hangar in Powell, WY for the CAP kids, and then flew a bunch with my plane that recently crashed due to my letting it get too far out, but was totally unscathed from that incident, to now in my new replacement F-4 that I had hoped to maiden this weekend. As luck would have it, the flap switch on my DX 18 broke off yesterday, still a nub of the spring sticking out of it. It does "work" but I would be foolhardy to try and maiden this F-4 with that goofy flap switch. So, tomorrow it gets shipped to Horizon for them to put a new "D" switch in, and I'll do the maiden when it gets back. The plane is fully ready to go, otherwise.

I think once I get the new F-4 all dialed in like before, I'll look into replacing the fan with what you recommended. We are at 5,000' MSL here, and I think there is a probably an appreciable decrease in power from what you probably find in the Miami area at sea level where you fly.

Do I need to change out the ESC or anything else if I go ahead and put the inrunner in place of my current fan?

Thanks,

Dave

[Hugh Wiedman]

For the time being, I just put all the old stuff from the last plane in this one that was still usable. I originally had the 6S outrunner which is adequate for my style of flying, but I think I'll probably go with a 6S inrunner down the road.

Which 6S inrunner do you recommend, again?

Thanks,

davegee

I put the FW 12 blade 1835 Kv inrunner in both of mine and it made a huge difference in the way it flew over the original 9 blade outrunner. I've put that fan in all of my 90 mm's and really like it (although it is a bit pricey ), but imagine the FMS fan locharrow put in is similar if not even better. The FW fan is a drop in fit requiring no modification. Can't say about the FW 9 blade inrunner as I don't have much experience with that one (did put it in my Stinger 90 when I swapped in the 12 blade in my 2nd Hornet), but it is considerably more economical. I'm sure I probably fly similar to you as I'm not a speed demon and rarely use full throttle, except on take-off. The big difference for me was in the take off distance on grass now less than 70 feet and it powers through any vertical maneuver like Cuban 8's and Split S's without missing a beat. The old stock outrunner seemed to labor a bit at the top end of a vertical maneuver and occasionally got too slow causing an early wing stall and a "what the hell" moment. It also powers through slower base to final turns without getting a little loose and can recover quicker if you need it. There's not much difference in flight time though and I'm getting 4 minutes on an SMC 6200 where I used to get 3:40 on the outrunner. But you can tell the difference in the flight as it is a lot smoother and holds your desired air speed easier. Just my 2 cents.

[davegee]

Best of luck with that flight, Locharrow!!👊

[locharrow]

That's the FMS 90mm 12 blade installed in the "old" F4 ...bit of foam sculpting required but no big deal. Sounds a bit louder (in a good way) than the Freewing 1835kv motor. Unfortunately only just finished and it's too dark to "maiden". If it's a flying day tomorrow I'll give it a whirl....fingers crossed !!

[davegee]

Excellent work! What fan do have in this one?

For the time being, I just put all the old stuff from the last plane in this one that was still usable. I originally had the 6S outrunner which is adequate for my style of flying, but I think I'll probably go with a 6S inrunner down the road.

Which 6S inrunner do you recommend, again?

Thanks,

davegee

[Hugh Wiedman]

On the "final assembly line" at home, waiting for better weather to do the maiden. I took a lot of the "guts" out of the crashed previous plane, which was painted identically to this one. This plane has the Chris Wolfe Afterburner lighting system, and JP brakes to help stay on the runway where I fly from. Have started some panel line shading, exhaust streaking, and some judicious use of some oil and grease acrylics on various parts of the model, like flight controls hydraulic cylinders, etc.

Excellent work! What fan do have in this one?

[davegee]

On the "final assembly line" at home, waiting for better weather to do the maiden. I took a lot of the "guts" out of the crashed previous plane, which was painted identically to this one. This plane has the Chris Wolfe Afterburner lighting system, and JP brakes to help stay on the runway where I fly from. Have started some panel line shading, exhaust streaking, and some judicious use of some oil and grease acrylics on various parts of the model, like flight controls hydraulic cylinders, etc.

[davegee]

DG, Nice detail work in the offices, Sir. Best, LB

Thanks, LB!

Best,

davegee