Freewing 90mm F-22 Raptor - Official Thread

[crxmanpat]

Glad you got your order in Pat.....I was starting to get anxious for you. :)

Yeah, so was I! :)

[crxmanpat]

Determination wins...congrats Pat!

Thanks Tony! Looking forward to seeing you and E next weekend at the Jet Rally!

[Aros]

STL files have been added to the Support Tab for those of you with 3D Printers...Go nuts! :Cool:

https://www.motionrc.com/collections/coming-soon-airplanes/products/freewing-f-22-raptor-90mm-edf-jet-arf#support-tab

[dsa44]

Looks super! Tempted to pull the trigger for xmas gift...(to myself of course!)

Is there a good space to place Frsky S6R/S8R rx flat somewhere to be able to use its gyro function? The battery and junction box look like flat placement would be limited..?

[Felixs10]

Does this model have a seperate BEC ?

[Alpha]

Alpha, have you flown the 8s yet? Any input on it vs the 6s? I am on the fence and can't decide but don't want to wait a week to order after seeing the 8s product video for fear the pre-order will be sold out.

I've only flown about 30 flights on 8s. The bulk of the 8s flight testing was done by our team here. The main difference between the 6s and 8s is that the 8s will give you increased static thrust, which is nice for maintaining hovers or executing extended vertical, and an increase of about ~15mph in level speed. I hesitate to quote speed increases with the F-22 because its shape can conceal other factors that will impact perceived airspeed and energy retention depending on how the pilot is flying it. For example, scrubbing energy in needlessly tight turns will eliminate much of the benefit of the 8s' wattage. This is true for any model, but with the F-22, it is even more pronounced. Suffice to say, the 8s can reward pilots with judicious energy management and who learn how to surf the model and when to apply power and when not to apply power. Pilots with the 8s system who leave the throttle at full from takeoff to landing will be treated to a very fast and powerful flight, but flight duration will suffer. The 6s, by contrast, is less in either extreme and more "balanced" overall. It's lighter, for better or worse, and slower, for better or worse, and more floaty, for better or worse, and more economical, for better or worse. For my personal preference, same as I said with the F-4, I would choose the 6s. It can do everything I want it to, which in the context of an F-22 is more than just speed runs on the deck. If someone wanted to really push the envelope with the aforementioned high speed runs and accelerate out of maneuvers more authoritatively at the cost of higher wing loading and higher cost, then I would recommend the 8s.

I probably didn't help you make a decision. Suffice to say, they're both valuable enough that we decided to carry both in PNP format. Two different airplanes, two different flight profiles, two different price points.

Looks super! Tempted to pull the trigger for xmas gift...(to myself of course!)

Is there a good space to place Frsky S6R/S8R rx flat somewhere to be able to use its gyro function? The battery and junction box look like flat placement would be limited..?

There's plenty of space for an S6R or S8R, on either side of the MFCB, flat on the plywood. We tested other gyroceivers in that position including Admiral and Lemon, and standalone gyros from Hobby Eagle and Freewing, and all performed fine in that position.

Does this model have a seperate BEC ?

Yes, there's a separate 8A UBEC in the Freewing 90mm F-22 6s PNP and 8s PNP.

[Hardway]

Order placed!!! I had trouble getting the full page to load as well.... Refreshed it several times and was happy when the button finally came up!! :Cool::Cool::Cool: Thanks again to you Alpha, Motion R/C and of course, Freewing!!!

[JamesonC]

I've only flown about 30 flights on 8s. The bulk of the 8s flight testing was done by our team here. The main difference between the 6s and 8s is that the 8s will give you increased static thrust, which is nice for maintaining hovers or executing extended vertical, and an increase of about ~15mph in level speed. I hesitate to quote speed increases with the F-22 because its shape can conceal other factors that will impact perceived airspeed and energy retention depending on how the pilot is flying it. For example, scrubbing energy in needlessly tight turns will eliminate much of the benefit of the 8s' wattage. This is true for any model, but with the F-22, it is even more pronounced. Suffice to say, the 8s can reward pilots with judicious energy management and who learn how to surf the model and when to apply power and when not to apply power. Pilots with the 8s system who leave the throttle at full from takeoff to landing will be treated to a very fast and powerful flight, but flight duration will suffer. The 6s, by contrast, is less in either extreme and more "balanced" overall. It's lighter, for better or worse, and slower, for better or worse, and more floaty, for better or worse, and more economical, for better or worse. For my personal preference, same as I said with the F-4, I would choose the 6s. It can do everything I want it to, which in the context of an F-22 is more than just speed runs on the deck. If someone wanted to really push the envelope with the aforementioned high speed runs and accelerate out of maneuvers more authoritatively at the cost of higher wing loading and higher cost, then I would recommend the 8s.

I probably didn't help you make a decision. Suffice to say, they're both valuable enough that we decided to carry both in PNP format. Two different airplanes, two different flight profiles, two different price points.

I was actually getting anxious and pulled the trigger on the 8s right before you posted this. With your style of flying being the same on both setups, are you getting equal flight time or does it suffer on 8s? Thanks for all the input Alpha, I really appreciate it!

[Alpha]

I was actually getting anxious and pulled the trigger on the 8s right before you posted this. With your style of flying being the same on both setups, are you getting equal flight time or does it suffer on 8s? Thanks for all the input Alpha, I really appreciate it!

Great question. When I fly the 6s and 8s PNPs back to back, as I have done several times, I always set my timer for 4 minutes and land shortly thereafter. The cells typically come down near the same, with the 8s being slightly higher if there ever was a difference. The more visually apparent difference between those two flights is the "size of the arena" so to speak. With the 6s, I can fly a very tight pattern and put on a multi-maneuver show in that 4 minutes. With the 8s, the flight looks identical except the airspace covered is wider, taller. I hope that makes sense. But again, this is strictly in the context of how I fly. Frankly I'm probably the worst person to ask, because I developed the darn thing so I know its preferences, and can thus fly nearly identical flight plans on two different power systems, and also because I'm more interested in individual maneuvers, where the lighter 6s shines, as opposed to chaining maneuvers together, where the more powerful 8s shines.

From what I've gleaned from your posts, JamesonC, I think you'd be happier with the 8s.

Pilots who want an approachable, everyday flyer with no bad habits and will probably attempt a few acrobatic maneuvers occasionally as shown in the videos posted thus far, get the 6s.

Pilots who know they will want to push this model from a Mongo flip immediately into a J-turn back to a vertical climb then a Cobra then a descending turn inverted then a punch at show center back to hover, and then end it all with a climb to the moon, get the 8s.

[Tom]

Thanks for the info Alpha! I have a few 6s 5000mah lipos that are in good shape and perform well. Gonna try to strap an admiral 2s 5000 to those and see how it does before dropping another $100 on another 6s 5000. Thanks for the advice and cautions! Do you know if the 8s eta is the same as the 6s eta? Have you flown the 8s version? Any input on different characteristics? THANKS

8S ETA is indeed the same as the 6S and ARF+ versions.

[Tom]

........The F-22 on the other had flies so well that even Alpha refers to it as the ideal 90mm EDF trainer. This alone gives me an many other newbie pilots the confidence to take the chance and not a risk with a $479 model.

I want to clarify this a little bit. If you have not yet flown any jet, I would not recommending starting with the 90mm F-22 simply because of the size and the price. Once you graduate from a prop plane to a jet, I would recommend starting with a 64mm jet simply because they are cheap and cause less damage if you have a mishap. Once you want to move up to a 90mm jet, the F-22 is the place to start due to the wide flight envelope which will appeal to experts and people new to 90mm jets alike.

[JazzmanB]

I want to clarify this a little bit. If you have not yet flown any jet, I would not recommending starting with the 90mm F-22 simply because of the size and the price. Once you graduate from a prop plane to a jet, I would recommend starting with a 64mm jet simply because they are cheap and cause less damage if you have a mishap. Once you want to move up to a 90mm jet, the F-22 is the place to start due to the wide flight envelope which will appeal to experts and people new to 90mm jets alike.

I agree . Out of all the edfs ive ever flown id recommend the 70mm edf eflight viper for a first edf. Even the Avanti 80mm before this.

[JamesonC]

Great question. When I fly the 6s and 8s PNPs back to back, as I have done several times, I always set my timer for 4 minutes and land shortly thereafter. The cells typically come down near the same, with the 8s being slightly higher if there ever was a difference. The more visually apparent difference between those two flights is the "size of the arena" so to speak. With the 6s, I can fly a very tight pattern and put on a multi-maneuver show in that 4 minutes. With the 8s, the flight looks identical except the airspace covered is wider, taller. I hope that makes sense. But again, this is strictly in the context of how I fly. Frankly I'm probably the worst person to ask, because I developed the darn thing so I know its preferences, and can thus fly nearly identical flight plans on two different power systems, and also because I'm more interested in individual maneuvers, where the lighter 6s shines, as opposed to chaining maneuvers together, where the more powerful 8s shines.

From what I've gleaned from your posts, JamesonC, I think you'd be happier with the 8s.

Pilots who want an approachable, everyday flyer with no bad habits and will probably attempt a few acrobatic maneuvers occasionally as shown in the videos posted thus far, get the 6s.

Pilots who know they will want to push this model from a Mongo flip immediately into a J-turn back to a vertical climb then a Cobra then a descending turn inverted then a punch at show center back to hover, and then end it all with a climb to the moon, get the 8s.

Alpha, thanks AGAIN for your input. I am actually not much of an acrobatic flyer. I do some rolls and loops and big climbs into a stall and such but nothing slow or fancy (I don't own one single 3d plane.) But, I do like my jets fast! My Rebel has been upgraded to 6s and even my little FMS 70mm hand toss Scorpion is on 6s now. But, this will only be my 2nd 90mm edf and first 8s setup. I like speed and ability to climb vertical. Other than that, I fly basic patterns at 50% throttle and enjoy low, slow fly bys and such. 8s has been ordered so I am banking your opinion is right about 8s for me! ;)

Just want to say once again, thanks for the hard work into this EDF. I am fairly new on Hobbysquawk as I used to stay on RCG until I realized all the good MRC info is here. So, while I didn't get to do it very long here before FOIL was released, I have been banging the 6s F22 drum for a while and so happy to see it come out! Now how about a nice 70mm 6s sport jet to compete with that "other EDF company!" LOL

[Alpha]

Tom's wise to emphasize that point. On the product page's Description, which I wrote, the full context can be seen:

"Despite its extreme capabilities in the hands of expert RC pilots, the Freewing F-22 can also be cruised comfortably at 40%-50% throttle for stable flying as a 90mm Jet Trainer for RC pilots moving up from the 70mm-80mm Jet sizes. "

"Overall, the Freewing 90mm F-22 is a very approachable flyer and suitable for pilots moving up to their first 90mm jet from a 70mm or 80mm jet. For pilots already familiar with the handling of a 90mm jet, this F-22 offers the potential to master an expanded set of realistic maneuvers."

In case it has already gotten lost in previous pages, I'd encourage everyone to watch James and Patrick's Flight Review video, which covers many of the topics asked so far in this thread, and also most importantly shows the 6s model in action.... it's worth more than any words I could type!

[Mike_Then]

I'm going to stop visiting Freewing threads on other forums... the energy here is so much more positive. No whining about "it's missing <insert feature here>", no crying about "nice plane but wish you would have released <insert plane here>". I really tip my hat to you guys for yet another AWESOME release! It's going to look fantastic next to my A-10, MiG-21, DH-112 Venom V2, F-4, and F/A-18E V2. :D (RIP F-14) I am, unfortunately, going to have to wait until the 2nd preorder opens.... the end of the year is always a financial challenge, so I'll jealously watch all the flight reports come in. No doubt the first preorder is going fast!

[JamesonC]

I'm going to stop visiting Freewing threads on other forums... the energy here is so much more positive. No whining about "it's missing <insert feature here>", no crying about "nice plane but wish you would have released <insert plane here>". I really tip my hat to you guys for yet another AWESOME release! It's going to look fantastic next to my A-10, MiG-21, DH-112 Venom V2, F-4, and F/A-18E V2. :D (RIP F-14) I am, unfortunately, going to have to wait until the 2nd preorder opens.... the end of the year is always a financial challenge, so I'll jealously watch all the flight reports come in. No doubt the first preorder is going fast!

I have been wondering how big the first order is. Wonder how long the pre-order will last before selling out!

[Pooch]

Hello... first post here - I think it’s great how Motion engages with their customers and is transparent about R+D and I genuinely think the models you produce are above beyond the quality (at this price range) of anything else on the market. Please keep up the good work.

I’d like to respectfully ask why thrust vectoring wasn’t included on this model?

I am in no way trying to denigrate the F-22 or whinge. I just think it would have pushed me over the boundary from ‘Oh, that looks nice’ to ‘TAKEMYMONEYRIGHTNOWPLEASE’.

Cheers for any response... going by the rest of the thread it’s not something most are bothered about :)

[Alpha]

Mike_Then, we appreciate your contributing to the positivity!

JamesonC, this one is going very quickly. I finally made it through watching James and Patrick's Flight Review video (VPN is very inconsistent in China), and I can see how that video makes it even easier to pull the trigger.

As I often say when in every thread when each project finally transitions from the secrecy of our development cave to the limelight of worldwide judgement, we at Motion RC have done our best to make this bird worth your valuable time and your hard earned money. Thank you for your trust and support, let us know if ever there are any problems, and post your feedback once the maiden flights start rolling off the tarmac.

[JamesonC]

Hello... first post here - I think it’s great how Motion engages with their customers and is transparent about R+D and I genuinely think the models you produce are above beyond the quality (at this price range) of anything else on the market. Please keep up the good work.

I’’d like to respectfully ask why thrust vectoring wasn’t included on this model?

I am in no way trying to denigrate the F-22 or whinge. I just think it would have pushed me over the boundary from ‘Oh, that looks nice’ to ‘TAKEMYMONEYRIGHTNOWPLEASE’.

Cheers for any response... going by the rest of the thread it’s not something most are bothered about :)

Alpha mentioned in the release video that it was designed to fly and perform acrobatics that thrust vectoring allows in the full scale but without them in the model. It helped keep down cost/weight and potential failure/maintenance item.

[Alpha]

Hello... first post here - I think it’s great how Motion engages with their customers and is transparent about R+D and I genuinely think the models you produce are above beyond the quality (at this price range) of anything else on the market. Please keep up the good work.

I’d like to respectfully ask why thrust vectoring wasn’t included on this model?

I am in no way trying to denigrate the F-22 or whinge. I just think it would have pushed me over the boundary from ‘Oh, that looks nice’ to ‘TAKEMYMONEYRIGHTNOWPLEASE’.

Cheers for any response... going by the rest of the thread it’s not something most are bothered about :)

Hey Pooch, welcome home to Hobby Squawk! It's a fair question, I wouldn't say it's whining at all. As JamesonC correctly said, I mentioned during one of my flights in the release video that we opted against including thrust vectoring because we were able to design the F-22 to fly very acrobatically without the need for thrust vectoring. Our primary target feature of Project Foil was how the model flew, and that drove all other development decisions, especially in regards to thrust vectoring. While on the ground the nozzles would look neat, in the air they'd just add complexity, weight, and cost, without adding to the flight experience. Without TV, I'm able to execute any of the maneuvers the TV'd Freewing twin 70mm SU-35 can, except flat spins.

I was very keen to control costs on a 90mm jet of this kind. There will be other opportunities to utilize features like thrust vectoring, but in the context of the F-22, it simply didn't justify its weight. One of our early F-22 prototypes used thrust vectored nozzles, but the added servos and inherent slop in the mechanism resulted in sloppy flight handling that lacked the precision we wanted, not to mention a plethora of servos hanging all over. Now, *IF* the prototype flew much better with TV than without, then we'd have tried to incorporate them to extract that increase in performance. But the target wing loading of the F-22 didn't allow for adding thrust vectoring and increasing cost simply for looks alone. I've flown over-engineered foamies with LERX, slats, airbrakes, TV.... frankly almost all of them ended up being more of a hassle than an advantage. This is why we omitted slats on the F-14 and F-4 --because prototype flying proved they didn't need them.

Back to the F-22... the nearest model with full flying stabs and TV is the Freewing twin 70mm SU-35, but in that case it uses two separate nacelles, which somewhat simplifies the layout of TV servos and control hardware. In the case of the F-22, however, the single 90mm uses a bifurcated duct, which further complicated the mechanism's armatures to provide the necessary strength and tolerances. Essentially, we'd end up adding 500g of plastic in the worse possible place (tail), simply to enter a flat spin more readily.... I asked myself how many of us are truly going to fly a flat spin every time we go flying? Not many, I thought. In the end, I had to make the call that such a cost in weight and molds (plastic molds are insanely expensive) wasn't worth it.

I think you're right, based on the rest of this thread, our core customers are more interested in how the Freewing F-22 flies in real life rather than a particular specification on a data sheet. And the videos shown thus far demonstrate the F-22's flight envelope is wide, diverse, and accessible, as intended.

I hope that information is useful to you in some way!