Official Freewing MiG-29 Fulcrum Twin 80mm Thread

[Evan D]

It doesn't do it inverted. I don't think additional power will be the solution at all, it'll just push you further into alpha lock. If you have TV full down with TV is my preferred way out.

[JetFun]

Well the other thing is that when you are in Alpha lock pushing the elevator down does absolutely nothing if you are at full throttle. That is the crucial problem.

You're doing just about no forward speed and there is no windflow (like with a propeller) against the elevator that would make the elevator somehow effective. Now if you are not able to keep the plane level you don't know hat hit you. As soon as the nose is horizontal and accelerate again the natural reflex is to pull the elevator when at some forward speed and you're stuck again. That happened to me on the first flight.

Does it also stay in alpha lock when inverted or does the airfoil help in preventing that?

I paid like 850 EUR with VT. Now it's like another 250 EUR (FMS EDF) or 450 EUR (Wemotec EDF) to just get the MIG-29 to hopefully do what I could normally just expect it to do. Not trying to bash everyones toy - these are legitimate hobby wallet concerns.

So now when in alpha lock:
1. Reduce throttle until nose comes down
2. Push elevator and pick up speed by going downward
3. Have at least 30 meters of height - that's what the cool videos seem to indicate

or

Switch on VT, pull elevator, do a backward flip and go off throttle when the nose is pointing down. And switch off the VT immediately when nose is pointing down until you're in stable flight. Accelerate level and / or a bit downwards. I found pushing the VT down results in a massive loss of height if you are too late in going level (which is tricky when using the VT). Keeping VT on would make the elevator stick just too sensitive for a saving manoeuvre once you are out of alpha lock, especially after some extra adrenalin.

Basically a bit more power would be the solution. And alpha lock would be a very welcome stable awesome characteristic of the MIG-29.

[Evan D]

Nope not funny…

[kallend]

Funny, don’t you think, that the twin 80mm F-14 which is a heavy plane, does not need beefed up FFS servos or hardware. What it has is a more rigid tail structure and a stab pivot axis that is located better.

[Evan D]

I agree but I think some crashes at the beginning were people not paying attention to CG, they saw only the front and rear battery areas and flew with too nose heavy a CG and didn't have enough pitch response (travel or servo power) to get them out of a situation. Then all the servo discussions happened and FW came out with slightly better servos and finally much better ones along with better hardware. Now a lot of us have TV's. I don't think any of these are fixes, that there is an airframe issue with this particular bird and either we haven't found the true root cause or the tru fix can't happen without major wing/ fuselage work.

[xviper]

I agree. The big MiG can do some awesome things, has a great presence in the air and is one of the smoothest landing planes I have (especially in wind) but it has a problem and thrust isn't the solution. The TVs can get you out of alpha lock but I've never gotten to the point that I'll do a very low altitude flip or snap.

BINGO!

Back when this plane was brand new, before the TV nozzles were even available, several crashes occurred in SE Asian - with videos. It was blamed on flying at high speed with the flaps deployed. First, why would anyone do that anyway? No matter. That was the assumption at the time. Before I got my VT nozzles, I did some tests to see what would happen if I slammed the flaps down at speed and see if the thing would fall out of the sky. This did NOT happen. Nevertheless, (form my other Mig experience) I did not try high alpha until I got the nozzles on and yes, even with the nozzles, it was hard to get out of high alpha because this plane is big and heavy and doesn't have the thrust to weight ratio to do it comfortably. Altitude is your friend and if you're not good at this sort of flying don't do it down low where you won't have the planning or the skill to get out of it in time.

Without VT nozzles, this plane simply high alphas itself into the ground (or in this example at my field, full power into a lake). VT would have likely saved it.

Yesterday, I flew my SebArt (Freewing) Mig29. It is only a 4s plane, very light, has VT nozzles and has the thrust to take off vertically out of my hand. This plane can high alpha for the whole battery a couple feet off the ground, no problem. It can even hover in place (if I was skilled enough, which I'm not). It has the power/weight ratio to lift the tail (it doesn't really "drop the nose") and start to fly "normal" again. The Freewing 80mm Mig29 DOES NOT. You'd need an extra 0.5 to 1.0 kg of thrust to do it and then your flight time goes down to a couple of minutes or less. You can increase the thrust, but it's hard to increase the battery capacity without some major interior redesign. But then, you're adding weight back on for that, require extra thrust to push it around.

[Evan D]

I agree. The big MiG can do some awesome things, has a great presence in the air and is one of the smoothest landing planes I have (especially in wind) but it has a problem and thrust isn't the solution. The TVs can get you out of alpha lock but I've never gotten to the point that I'll do a very low altitude flip or snap.

[GliderGuy]

This video shows what the MiG-29 is capable of

https://www.hobbysquawk.com/forum/rc...967#post348967

3D flying, in my opinion, is a NO….especially close to the ground. I am unaware of any EDF solution that will allow acceleration out of alpha lock. Doing that may require a gas turbine.

Obviously the video shows you can get out of alpha lock with VT pushing the nose down. But a pure “acceleration” out of alpha lock without lowering the nose….hmmmm….gas turbine power required is my guess. Others may have a different opinion.

-GG

[JetFun]

Is the High Alpha problem solved with the FMS 80mm EDFs? I mean at least to be able to accelerate out of High Alpha. Actually I wanted the MIG-29 for some close to ground aerobatics. Just seems now like the fun stuff can only be done with enough altitude. I have flown many years of 3D propeller aeroplanes and the fun is always close to the ground.

So I am just wondering what the best route is.

[GliderGuy]

Hi JF,
Lots in this forum to read about high alpha. Well explored. AirGuardian is the champ of exercising the MiG and a at high alpha entry/recovery. Watch his videos.

VT is the answer. I never felt she was under powered on 6000 mAh.

LOL - I didn’t install VT, eventually lost her to high alpha lock down low but only after 2000+ flights!

I REALLY liked to fly the MiG-29!

-GG

[JetFun]

First flights today.
Very mixed feelings.

I had to trim the flaps and ailerons up quite a bit. But that's OK.
Flew 6s SLS 5000mAH and 4000mAh. The 5000mAH are 690grams each. The 4000mAh are 605grams each.

Ended up three times stuck in High-Alpha. First time when I really slowed down and then wanted to accelerate out of a turn. Lost quite some height hovering coming down vertically - like hovering /harrier a 3d aeroplane. Stopped engines - nose down - but when accelerating out obviously pulled to much and ended in another High Alpha. Lost like 20 meters of height. Anyway the vectors did the trick. Luckily I had installed the Vector Thrust and did a full pull flip to get out of it. Same thing happended again when I slowed down to check stalling characteristics. This time used VT right away.
First flight, stuck twice in High-Alpha.
First time I was level, full power and pulled - then got stuck in High Alpha.

And then again while playing aroud a bit. Nose down and level full power saved it. Luckily it does not stall over a wingtip but rather dips the nose.

That is a very nasty characteristic to not get out of High Alpha. The Mig-29 is simply underpowered. It is what it is. I wish those things would be shown official videos. Think I need other EDFs. Could get nasty if you come in landing, see there is not enough space and need a go-around. That plane has virtually no chance of survival if it is stuck in High Alpha. Even VT would just get the nose up during landing and then not be able to accelerate upwards.

Happy I did not try the first flight on the very heavy CNHL 6000 mAh 6s.

Just think it needs to be said. If I would not have had VT I don't think I would have saved the plane the first time. The grey color in the evening was an extra handycap. Simply did not expect the aeroplane to get stuck when trying to accelerate upward from slow speed.

Otherwise it's lighter than two Avanti but has two of those powerplants. If at speed the EDFs get a nice grip of the air and verticals are pretty OK. If at speed the powerplant is enough to have fun. Would not expect that kind of "stuck-in-High-Alpha" with the power it has accelerating from half power to full power. The EDFs just don't grip enough at low speed. The same powerplant grips nicely in the Avanti at low speed. Not sure why but I guess the Avanti is just more aerodynamic.

Guess most of you know this MIG-29-High-Alpha thing. But I simply have not read too much about the MIG-29. Just looked nice on the videos. The vertical harrier was really beautiful. Very nice for a jet. Just not when you are trying to save the plane not knowing what went wrong. First thought was if I had somehow programmed some switch by mistake, then hit it and the VT were going into full up mode. Lost a lot of height because of wrong thinking.

Beautiful aeroplane though. High Alpha looks beautiful during landing.

Has anyone tried the FMS 80mm EDFs? Will the 100 Amp ESC be enough? My amperemeter stops at 100AMPs.

[Airguardian]

I typically use a Freewing Su-35 packaging foam as a 'stand' for all my jets when I'm working on them at home. :)

[skybolt]

I only use the blue box for the flaps, lights, and undercarriage.

[JetFun]

Ok, went for the fast option. Just two servo cables (aileron and flaps) out of the wing past the plug with door servo and light. Might solder a better solution when time available.

[JetFun]

Sorry, double posted.

[JetFun]

Thanks for that feedback on your stands!

Just figured out that the ailerons are on just one channel out of the blue box. Would have liked to put the ailerons, elevators and flaps on separate channels on a Hott GR-32 receiver. Seems that's not possible without reconnecting thoses wires to servo connectors and skipping the blue box. Especially for trimming it would be helpful to have all on separate channels. Added the Thrust vectoring. Having snapflap on ailerons aswell would be helpful when doing tight TV stuff.

I am fine with the gears running via blue box although the doors and gears take a lot of time.

How did you solve this or did you just go with the stock setup? Not sure if it's worth all that effort.

[Hugh Wiedman]

The Harbor Freight stand is nice cause in folds flat for transport and can be adjusted to any width. Also, it's at the right height to work on an aircraft without bending over. Also works for my Beast BiPlane, the F-18's and F-4's and the B-24's, anything with a flat bottom. I also have a couple Robart stands, but they break too easy and are more for smaller planes. Extreme Flight makes a great stand (pictured below) but it's pricy and doesn't travel well. The other great stand I have I made out of PVC (also pictured below). It comes apart for easy transport and is great for the Corsair, Spitfire, FW-`90, P-51, F-16, Stinger 90 and the Avanti, as well as the F-4 inverted. Easy to make and the price is right! I usually take the Harbor Freight and homemade stand to the field and both pretty much handle everything I've got.

[Hugh Wiedman]

Just got my Mig-29 today and was wondering what kind of stand you guys use to attach the wings on the airfield. Turning the aeroplane upside down - which stand works nicely?

I use a stand from Harbor Freight, cost $21, that holds up to 200 pounds. Actually works great for my SU-30, A-10 and a bunch of others. The only problem is that when I take it to the field, my buddy who also has a Mig and many others, he's always hogging my stand!

[xviper]

Just got my Mig-29 today and was wondering what kind of stand you guys use to attach the wings on the airfield. Turning the aeroplane upside down - which stand works nicely?

I don't use a stand or turn the plane upside down to install the wings. I put the plane right side up on the set up table with one side at the edge of the table - install the wing on that side and turn the screws from below. Turn the plane around so the other side overhangs the table and install that wing - put the screws in from below. Sometimes, simple is the best way.

[JetFun]

Just got my Mig-29 today and was wondering what kind of stand you guys use to attach the wings on the airfield. Turning the aeroplane upside down - which stand works nicely?