Official Freewing MiG-29 Fulcrum Twin 80mm Thread

[HangarQueen]

If there were a published standard for measuring "C", say from ASTM, ISO or NIST, then you could prove fraud or false advertising. Since there is no such standard, each manufacturer/distributor can claim that their "100C" pack met their own standards, and you can't prove otherwise even if the pack is rubbish.

I'm not talking about the legal definition of fraud; I'm talking about the ethical definition of it. Often a very big difference.

[kallend]

Yes, they all perform less than advertised, but if you pay a premium price for an advertised 100C, you can expect a little more than only one quarter of that, no? In my book, that comes close to fraud.. . . .

If there were a published standard for measuring "C", say from ASTM, ISO or NIST, then you could prove fraud or false advertising. Since there is no such standard, each manufacturer/distributor can claim that their "100C" pack met their own standards, and you can't prove otherwise even if the pack is rubbish.

[Evan D]

I had a link earlier to the 6000's I initially used in my Mig. I then started, and kept flying on lighter/ smaller batteries. I still get great flight time and I like the lighter feel of the plane. I'm using 5200 Power Hobby 50C, link below. I really like the value and performance of these. I've said it many times. Read reviews, do your home work before buying a battery. Buy one or two and test it out. If it performs as you want them buy a bunch because manufacturers change their batteries often and you may not get the same battery the next time. A great example is the E Speed battery I found, a 6200 50C. I bought one and loved it's weight, 760g. A couple months ordered more and they had the same exact label but were now much larger and 830g.

But you ask if you can use the Spek batteries you have. Sure you can (again you may have to move them around or carve a bit from under the canopy to balance with them) but yes.

[gr8pics]

The lion is not on the vertical stabs, but the rest are pre-applied. There are some great liveries out there that many have done so it's no big deal to change. Filter this thread by photos or go to the last 2 March Madness forums. Changed mine very easily.

Regarding decent 6S packs, for cost/weight/discharge rate the SMC, IMO are tops in the US, but currently unavailable due to several factors but Danny is come out soon with another full line including some HV packs that I'm drooling to get. Also hate to burst your bubble, but if I'm not mistaken, all the packs are made in China! For reference, the SMC packs individual cell Internal Resistance averages 1.33 mohms (both 6200 & 5300) and individual cell amps at 175. HRB 6000 is a decent alternative, IR's 1.97 & 141 amps, Admirals/Spektrums 2.96 & 110 amps (both work horses but not great on discharge rate or battery weight), and Roaring Tops 2.34 and 125 amps (but they do not hold up well). Liperior's are close to the SMC's but weigh about 15-20% more, but still a good alternative. Until the SMC's are back, the HRB's are a decent, cheaper alternative and the Liperiors are a bit better, but heavier. Just my 2 cents.

My personal favorite:

Nice work mate!

Yea, i know they are all made in China, but the difference lays in which company managing the quality. Western companies manufacturing in China have stricker rrequirements for quality and QC, independent chinese manufacturers who sells directly, not so much. Just like iPhone vs a cheap model youll find on Aliexpress :)

[Hugh Wiedman]

Question about the livery.
Are the digital camo stickers or paint?
if stickers, are all of it preinstalled?
Would like to change it to something different, if its preinstalled, i guess its hard to do?

The lion is not on the vertical stabs, but the rest are pre-applied. There are some great liveries out there that many have done so it's no big deal to change. Filter this thread by photos or go to the last 2 March Madness forums. Changed mine very easily.

Regarding decent 6S packs, for cost/weight/discharge rate the SMC, IMO are tops in the US, but currently unavailable due to several factors but Danny is come out soon with another full line including some HV packs that I'm drooling to get. Also hate to burst your bubble, but if I'm not mistaken, all the packs are made in China! For reference, the SMC packs individual cell Internal Resistance averages 1.33 mohms (both 6200 & 5300) and individual cell amps at 175. HRB 6000 is a decent alternative, IR's 1.97 & 141 amps, Admirals/Spektrums 2.96 & 110 amps (both work horses but not great on discharge rate or battery weight), and Roaring Tops 2.34 and 125 amps (but they do not hold up well). Liperior's are close to the SMC's but weigh about 15-20% more, but still a good alternative. Until the SMC's are back, the HRB's are a decent, cheaper alternative and the Liperiors are a bit better, but heavier. Just my 2 cents.

My personal favorite:

[gr8pics]

They are water-slide decals, and they are preinstalled. However, since they are water-slide, they are very thin so they can be painted over and you won't tell they are there afterwards.

Cool, have you seen anyone alter the scheme here?

[crxmanpat]

Question about the livery.
Are the digital camo stickers or paint?
if stickers, are all of it preinstalled?
Would like to change it to something different, if its preinstalled, i guess its hard to do?

They are water-slide decals, and they are preinstalled. However, since they are water-slide, they are very thin so they can be painted over and you won't tell they are there afterwards.

[gr8pics]

Question about the livery.
Are the digital camo stickers or paint?
if stickers, are all of it preinstalled?
Would like to change it to something different, if its preinstalled, i guess its hard to do?

[HangarQueen]

Yes, they all perform less than advertised, but if you pay a premium price for an advertised 100C, you can expect a little more than only one quarter of that, no? In my book, that comes close to fraud.
I use HRB in my F22, "china packs", the cost a fraction of the Spektrum ones, are a LOT lighter, and perform way better. They deliver 107A to the EDF without breaking a sweat, and show a low internal resistance, even after more than 20 cycles so far.
Have a look at the RCG thread, those are all real-life honest test values. You'll find the Spektrum batteries if you scroll way down that list.

[gr8pics]

I agree with both of you above. I know the advertised rating is much less, but arent they all? The actuall experience is what counts.
Im not saying Spektrum is best, theyve just worked very well for me on all the planes i got.
Im a little surprised Admiral is one of them, cause i wanted to get some along with the Mig, but what other brands are good 6s ones? Ill rather pay a little extra for quality and safety, rather than cheaping out on cheap china packs, that are ticking bombs.

[Hugh Wiedman]

There is no agreed upon engineering definition of "C" rating, and no independently established engineering standard or test procedure for measuring it. That is why marketing departments can put any number they like on the label with no fear of being sued for false advertizing. Data like in the RCG thread are good for comparitive purposes but shouldn't be called "actual".

You pays yer money and you takes yer chance.

Very true, but you can measure a batteries individual cell internal resistance and compare those againat other batteries to at least easily guesstimate which battery has a higher discharge rate. Ultimately, the final test rest in actual use and the Spektrums fail, at least for me, in both areas. But to each his own.

[kallend]

Just had to weigh in on this. First of all, the Viper will fly with a good/bad/in-different battery, so that's not a good "test" subject. You may love your Spektrum batteries (I guess someone has to), but I can guarantee you that they rank very poorly on the 3 most important issues. They are 1) way over priced, 2) the "actual" C (NOT THE ADVERTISED C) on the 5000 100C is actually 25C
. . . . . .

:

There is no agreed upon engineering definition of "C" rating, and no independently established engineering standard or test procedure for measuring it. That is why marketing departments can put any number they like on the label with no fear of being sued for false advertizing. Data like in the RCG thread are good for comparitive purposes but shouldn't be called "actual".

You pays yer money and you takes yer chance.

[Hugh Wiedman]

I have to disagree with you on the Spektrum batteries, i use them in my Viper 90, around 100 flights, never any issues whatsoever. They also charge nicely with the Spektrum smart charger. Must be one of the most stable lipo batteries ive had the past 20 years.

Just had to weigh in on this. First of all, the Viper will fly with a good/bad/in-different battery, so that's not a good "test" subject. You may love your Spektrum batteries (I guess someone has to), but I can guarantee you that they rank very poorly on the 3 most important issues. They are 1) way over priced, 2) the "actual" C (NOT THE ADVERTISED C) on the 5000 100C is actually 25C and on the 7000 30C is actually 16C and 3) heavier than comparable batteries. Most everyone in this forum knows I spent a lot of time and money testing 6S batteries (including doing some testing for MRC and the Admirals), and Spektrum is near the bottom of the list. You can also go to RCGroups and there is a complete testing of many batteries and see for yourself. Or, do what I did, Buy a Progressive IR meter (tests actual C, individual cell amps and individual cell resistance) and a Power meter and hook it up to your aircraft.

I can also guarantee you that if you get the Mig and fly it on 2 Spektrum 7000's, you will immediately say the "MIG IS A PIG"!! And it will be on those packs. Several of us fly our Migs on the SMC 5300 40C (Actual tested C of 39 and weight of 684 gr) or the SMC 6200 40 C (actual tested C of 38-39 and weight of 814 gr). Flies like a dream on the 5300's and even the 6200's. Unfortunately, SMC is in the process of redesigning all their packs because of the lithium shortage/price, but soon they'll be back in inventory. Liperiors were also good for actual C, but weighed a bit more. If you're not in the US, others like xviper (listen to him, he knows) have found the China Hobby batteries are good and lately the Codder HV sound great. But don't waste your money on the Mig if you plan on using Spektrum batteries.

Especially with EDF's, the inrunners THRIVE on a higher discharge rate packs, more so than the outrunners (but they still get a boost). With the Mig stock fans, the Spektrums will draw about 89 amps and 2061 watts. With a decent high C battery like SMC/ Liperior/China Hobby/ Codder HV more like 103 amps and 2420 watts and about 10-15% MORE THRUST than with the Spektrums. The 2 Migs at our field both have the FMS 2100 12 blade and static on the bench with the SMC's are at 125 amps 2895 watts, another 15-20% over the stock fans, but you don't need the FMS fans, the stock fans are great with the TV nozzles. We use the FMS fans because we're flying off grass and just can't leave well enough alone!

Don't take my word for it, get the testing meters and see for yourself and look up the studies people have already done. Don't throw the 10's of thousands of dollars away on crappy batteries like I have!! This will save you a ton of money. And if you still get the Mig and use Spektrums, keep my number and I'll buy it off you at a healthy discount when you decide it's "Not Worth The Money"! I may even spring for shipping!

[Evan D]

Oh, the ones with the batteries and linkages in the wrong spots and not lowering the flaps at speed, got it.

Yep...just like I saw in all those early videos.

[radfordc]

What you have done is simply to say that there are other ways to crash your airplane and one is to deploy your flaps at speed.

Yep...just like I saw in all those early videos.

[Evan D]

Thanks.

Make all the "suppositions" you want....

Doesn't take away from my opinion that the first rash of crashes were because of poor battery placement and not following the instructions when assembling the elevator linkage OR that there was an issue with alpha lock.

What you have done is simply to say that there are other ways to crash your airplane and one is to deploy your flaps at speed.

[radfordc]

Early on there were a few videos with crashes. Most looked like they could not pull out of dives and they showed the people using heavy batteries in the forward and aft battery spots. The TV units were not out at that point and there was no way those planes were balanced even to the manuals slightly nose heavy recommendation. To me it looked like the people didn't read the manual and didn't know there was a third, the center, spot to place a battery. It also looked like they put the servo linkage into the outer hole of the servo arm causing the elevator servos to work harder. My opinion is they caused the crashed themselves. When I built mine with the original servos I had no issues flying it.

I've told my story here before but I guess one more time is needed!

My 6000mah batteries were located in the center and aft location. I added additional lead weight to the tail to bring the CG 10mm aft of the recommended location in the manual. The servos were the replacement ones provided by MRC after crashes started happening and the linkages were correct.

I had flown a normal flight and was ready to land. I turned onto the downwind leg and hit the gear switch and without thinking also hit the flap down switch. The jet immediately pitched 45 degrees nose down and I could not recover with full up elevator.

Make all the "suppositions" you want....

On my second plane I am very careful to get the gear down and the plane slowed before lowering the flaps and haven't had any problems....yet.

[Evan D]

I assume you saw my answer. There are three battery areas on this plane to help balance it with or without the tail weight added when adding the TVs. Without TV you'll need to use the rear and middle spots and because the 7000 is wide you may have to remove some foam under the canopy. If you install the TVs you'll be right on the edge of rear and forward or rear and center. If you balance it on the marks you will want rear and forward. If you balance it aft of the marks, as many on here do, you'll be in that no man's land of R&F being too far forward and R&C being too far aft. But it's workable.

Strong enough is something you'll have to decide for yourself.

[gr8pics]

I think I'll bow out of the Spektrum battery thing after this post. If you are happy with what you get for what you pay, then so be it. I have the Viper 90 as do several others where I fly. The Viper 90 is a very versatile jet and can fly anywhere from "OK" to spectacular. If you have nothing else to compare it to, then this ranking has no meaning. Our Vipers can perform very nicely on low performing batteries to outstanding on top tier batteries. You will never know or see the difference if you haven't tested it. Put in a ChinaHobbyLine 65C (35 - 40C real world load test) or an SMC 40C (real world 38C) and you may see that your "never any issues whatsoever" was only mediocre to "I had no idea", buy hey, not knowing can be bliss. Horizon Hobby loves "blissfully not knowing". They are ecstatic that all their marketing did what they wanted it to do - selling low/mid tier products for over-the-top tier prices.
As scientists say ........................ "QED".

I was just asking, if they can be used, if they fit, and are strong enough for this model, without any ripping, as i already got 4 of them. Im not worried about the quality itself

[xviper]

I think I'll bow out of the Spektrum battery thing after this post. If you are happy with what you get for what you pay, then so be it. I have the Viper 90 as do several others where I fly. The Viper 90 is a very versatile jet and can fly anywhere from "OK" to spectacular. If you have nothing else to compare it to, then this ranking has no meaning. Our Vipers can perform very nicely on low performing batteries to outstanding on top tier batteries. You will never know or see the difference if you haven't tested it. Put in a ChinaHobbyLine 65C (35 - 40C real world load test) or an SMC 40C (real world 38C) and you may see that your "never any issues whatsoever" was only mediocre to "I had no idea", buy hey, not knowing can be bliss. Horizon Hobby loves "blissfully not knowing". They are ecstatic that all their marketing did what they wanted it to do - selling low/mid tier products for over-the-top tier prices.
As scientists say ........................ "QED".