Official Freewing MiG-29 Fulcrum Twin 80mm Thread

[fredmdbud]

It still lists 17g elevator servos:

"17g digital metal gear standard with 100mm lead: left elevator, right elevator."

Product Update - Freewing MiG-29 Fulcrum Twin 80mm EDF Jet | Motion RC

PRODUCT UPDATE - FREEWING TWIN 80MM MIG-29 FULCRUM


Revised May 6, 2021

Thank you for purchasing the Freewing Twin 80mm Mig-29 Fulcrum. Freewing has released an Upgrade Set for this model aircraft in May 2021. This Upgrade Set is included at no additional cost inside the box of each PNP shipped in May 2021 until further notice.

This Upgrade Set includes higher torque servos, new all-metal servo arms, new all-metal clevises, thicker control rods, and stronger metal control horns. Please follow the installation video and/or written instructions below to install this Upgrade Set. Freewing recommends that you install this Upgrade Set BEFORE flying your Freewing Twin 80mm MiG-29 Fulcrum.

[Hugh Wiedman]

Product Update - Freewing MiG-29 Fulcrum Twin 80mm EDF Jet | Motion RC

PRODUCT UPDATE - FREEWING TWIN 80MM MIG-29 FULCRUM


Revised May 6, 2021

Thank you for purchasing the Freewing Twin 80mm Mig-29 Fulcrum. Freewing has released an Upgrade Set for this model aircraft in May 2021. This Upgrade Set is included at no additional cost inside the box of each PNP shipped in May 2021 until further notice.

This Upgrade Set includes higher torque servos, new all-metal servo arms, new all-metal clevises, thicker control rods, and stronger metal control horns. Please follow the installation video and/or written instructions below to install this Upgrade Set. Freewing recommends that you install this Upgrade Set BEFORE flying your Freewing Twin 80mm MiG-29 Fulcrum.

Thanks FMB. Looks like the upgraded servo package has 30 gram metal servos. The 1st round of upgraded servos where 23 gram servos replacing the original 17 gram servos. Wonder if that's what they determined was the primary culprit in the crashes.

[sfcfury]

Well it looks like its in stock now....

https://www.motionrc.com/collections/rc-jets/products/freewing-mig-29-fulcrum-twin-80mm-edf-jet-pnp

[kallend]

Thanks FMB. Looks like the upgraded servo package has 30 gram metal servos. The 1st round of upgraded servos where 23 gram servos replacing the original 17 gram servos. Wonder if that's what they determined was the primary culprit in the crashes.

While that may be a solution, the primary culprit, IMO, is aerodynamic design that requires the use of hi-torque servos and over-engineered hardware to correct it.

[Evan D]

Good timing on your post! Kit is in the kits now "in stock"... :)

Still curious where you’re getting your insider information from a “reliable” source? So far, it hasn’t been correct. May want to not rely on that source too much from now on.

I’m not trying to be mean in anyway by saying this, and I hope it’s not coming across that way. Just that reliable information should be correct information.

[Evan D]

I agree. The kit isn't anything more than a lot of us have already done.

While that may be a solution, the primary culprit, IMO, is poor aerodynamic design that requires the use of hi-torque servos and over-engineered hardware to correct it.

[GliderGuy]

Thoughts...??

I’m not seeing any indications that the stock metal stab horns have issues. After a great deal of flying, I am not seeing any indications of these being under designed. However, I did more securely attach them.

Some of you did beef these up. I elected not to.

I see the upgrade kit has stronger ones in it.

Ary any of you having issues with the metal stock stab horns while flying with higher torque servos? The HV69 servos I am using are 7.5 kg/cm @ 6V (no 4.8V spec).

LOL - No text in the upgrade page cautioning against flying fast with the flaps down. The upgrade page refers to Hobby Squawk for more info.

-GG

[Evan D]

Some have bent them, probably more because the pushrod is at an angle to them. When I built mine I glued them down and used longer screws which it appears the kit also has.

[kallend]

I agree. The kit isn't anything more than a lot of us have already done. A band aide.

Slightly OT, but on the subject of Band Aids:

Many years ago I did some consulting work for an auto manufacturer that was having a problem with one of their pressed steel body panels that exhibited an effect known as "oil canning" (developing a concavity in a region that should have had a convex compound curve.) The problem was fundamental to the design of the panel and the way the press dies interacted with the material, but rather than redesign it, an expensive proposition, they just stuck a dummy air grille over the offending region of the pressing.

[Tom]

Since there is already loads of speculation, I'll address the Mig-29 upgrade servos. First, we had a handful of crashes which were nowhere near what the internet made it out to be. The real number of crashes was far less than 1% of total planes sold. What was the cause of the crash? After we gathered all data, we found 2 reasons. The first reason for half of the crashes was due to people putting the flaps down at 85%+ throttle. We test every model thoroughly before we release it and, to be perfectly honest, testing flaps at full throttle was never a test we did. I never thought people would put down flaps at full throttle or near full throttle so we've never tested any plane for this condition. That condition required higher torque elevator servos. Here is my PSA for the day - using flaps at full throttle is a bad practice and I recommend not trying this with any plane. The other cause of a few crashes was the plastic elevator servo arm breaking during a high speed dive. The elevator servos could handle the torque but the plastic servo horns could not. We changed the servo horn to metal and we added more torque to the servos to solve both issues. While we were at it, we added thicker push rods and clevis to make sure everything in the system was up to task. This is one of those things that got completely blown out of proportion by the internet. The rumors and speculation were amazingly inaccurate and seemed to build. Again, 99.xxx% of existing planes had no issues but we felt the need to make the plane bullet proof which is what we strive for with every plane. I would not call it a "band aid". This is a very large and fast dual 80mm EDF inrunner plane. We use 30g servos in the dual 80mm outrunner A-10, which is a much slower plane, and we used those 30g servos in the A-10 from the first day the plane was released many years ago. Generally there are two of us that put about 200 flights on these planes before the final release. In order to facilitate more testing, we've enlisted the help of a couple more people just to make sure any potential issue, such as flaps at full throttle, is caught before the final release. I also should mention the servos arms are more expensive as are the 30g servos but we are not charging extra in this first batch.

[Gringotuerto]

Since there is already loads of speculation, I'll address the Mig-29 upgrade servos.

I am not seeing this upgrade available on "spare parts" or "upgrades". I only see the note about it being included in new stock. For those of us who bought the original, can we buy the upgrade kit? A lot of people did similar upgrades already, but some of us are lazy and did not.

[RudyD54]

I curious about this too. I’ve already done most the upgrades but the servo arm and reinforced metal horn sound useful.

[Tom]

I am not seeing this upgrade available on "spare parts" or "upgrades". I only see the note about it being included in new stock. For those of us who bought the original, can we buy the upgrade kit? A lot of people did similar upgrades already, but some of us are lazy and did not.

We don't have spare stock yet but I will make sure more of these parts are on the way. One thing I need to check is if the new metal servo arm will fit any other servos or just the 30g servo. I don't recall if the spline is a different size on the 30g vs the other servos. How you you guys prefer to see this packaged as a spare part? Typically, we have a set of push rods as one spare part, servo horns as another, and servos as a third. Is that too complex? If so, how would you like to see this bundled as a spare part? I can talk to Freewing and make spare part packaging changes based on your feedback. I also need to know what parts you guys specifically want. Do you want to upgrade servos or do they only want the hardware? If only the hardware, I need to figure out if the 30g metal servo horn fit the 23g servo. Are you interested in the thicker push rods and clevis only? I need to know what parts you guys want to upgrade. Here is a link showing a picture of the hardware: https://www.motionrc.com/pages/produ...n-80mm-edf-jet

[Sky Wolf]

Since there is already loads of speculation, I'll address the Mig-29 upgrade servos. First, we had a handful of crashes which were nowhere near what the internet made it out to be. The real number of crashes was far less than 1% of total planes sold. What was the cause of the crash? After we gathered all data, we found 2 reasons. The first reason for half of the crashes was due to people putting the flaps down at 85%+ throttle. We test every model thoroughly before we release it and, to be perfectly honest, testing flaps at full throttle was never a test we did. I never thought people would put down flaps at full throttle or near full throttle so we've never tested any plane for this condition. That condition required higher torque elevator servos. Here is my PSA for the day - using flaps at full throttle is a bad practice and I recommend not trying this with any plane. The other cause of a few crashes was the plastic elevator servo arm breaking during a high speed dive. The elevator servos could handle the torque but the plastic servo horns could not. We changed the servo horn to metal and we added more torque to the servos to solve both issues. While we were at it, we added thicker push rods and clevis to make sure everything in the system was up to task. This is one of those things that got completely blown out of proportion by the internet. The rumors and speculation were amazingly inaccurate and seemed to build. Again, 99.xxx% of existing planes had no issues but we felt the need to make the plane bullet proof which is what we strive for with every plane. I would not call it a "band aid". This is a very large and fast dual 80mm EDF inrunner plane. We use 30g servos in the dual 80mm outrunner A-10, which is a much slower plane, and we used those 30g servos in the A-10 from the first day the plane was released many years ago. Generally there are two of us that put about 200 flights on these planes before the final release. In order to facilitate more testing, we've enlisted the help of a couple more people just to make sure any potential issue, such as flaps at full throttle, is caught before the final release. I also should mention the servos arms are more expensive as are the 30g servos but we are not charging extra in this first batch.

Tom, thanks for the valuable feedback regarding the truths surrounding the topic. And thanks for continuing to be the voice of reason when it’s time to say it.

Quiet the noise...Keep em’ flying!

[RudyD54]

We don't have spare stock yet but I will make sure more of these parts are on the way. One thing I need to check is if the new metal servo arm will fit any other servos or just the 30g servo. I don't recall if the spline is a different size on the 30g vs the other servos. How you you guys prefer to see this packaged as a spare part? Typically, we have a set of push rods as one spare part, servo horns as another, and servos as a third. Is that too complex? If so, how would you like to see this bundled as a spare part? I can talk to Freewing and make spare part packaging changes based on your feedback.

I think the parts packaged individually would be good for those like myself that have done some of the upgrades. I’ve already got upgraded servos and linkages, so being able to purchase just the servo arms and reinforced horn would be ideal.

[Sky Wolf]

Good timing on your post! Kit is in the kits now "in stock"... :)

Well, I’ll be!
Have a great one Evan D...Let’s go fly!!

[xviper]

Here is my PSA for the day - using flaps at full throttle is a bad practice and I recommend not trying this with any plane.

I completely agree with this statement. Over the past 10 years of being back in this hobby, it was a common sight that people had no clue how or when to deploy flaps. They'd be flying along at speed and when they decided it was time to land in the next circuit, they'd throw those flaps down full before they even slowed down AND they did not use any delayed deployment. When was the last time you sat in an airplane (airliner or small aircraft) where you could see the flaps and see those flaps slam themselves down before the plane began it's slow down to final? I'll bet you haven't. Flaps are part of the slow down process ............................. reduce throttle, slow down some, deploy flaps slowly bit by bit till on final, then last leg of final, go full flaps.
I still see sudden deployment of flaps at speed to this very day. When I ask the RC pilot why his flaps come down so rapidly and why he does it when the plane is still flying fast, the answer is generally, "I don't know. That's why the flaps are there." "I didn't even know you could slow them down."
The same goes for not sucking up the flaps after take off. They'd fly 1/2 the time with them still deployed. Or retracts .............. They'd fly the whole flight with them hanging down. "I never thought about them" or It's just too much to do when I'm trying to fly".

[mshagg]

I completely agree with this statement. Over the past 10 years of being back in this hobby, it was a common sight that people had no clue how or when to deploy flaps. They'd be flying along at speed and when they decided it was time to land in the next circuit, they'd throw those flaps down full before they even slowed down AND they did not use any delayed deployment. When was the last time you sat in an airplane (airliner or small aircraft) where you could see the flaps and see those flaps slam themselves down before the plane began it's slow down to final? I'll bet you haven't. Flaps are part of the slow down process ............................. reduce throttle, slow down some, deploy flaps slowly bit by bit till on final the last leg of final, then go full flaps.
I still see sudden deployment of flaps at speed to this very day. When I ask the RC pilot why his flaps come down so rapidly and why he does it when the plane is still flying fast, the answer is generally, "I don't know. That's why the flaps are there." "I didn't even know you could slow them down."
The same goes for not sucking up the flaps after take off. They'd fly 1/2 the time with them still deployed. Or retracts .............. They'd fly the whole flight with them hanging down. "I never thought about them" or It's just too much to do when I'm trying to fly".

For what it's worth Alpha's official and unequivocal position is not to use the slow function on flaps.

other cause of a few crashes was the plastic elevator servo arm breaking during a high speed dive.

completely blown out of proportion by the internet

Which one is it?

[xviper]

For what it's worth Alpha's official and unequivocal position is not to use the slow function on flaps.

I missed that statement from him. What was his reasoning for that? My feelings on it is that a sudden change like this can cause an undesirable upset in the plane's movement through the air. I just don't see flaps as an "ON/OFF" thing.

[Skosh25]

I missed that statement from him. What was his reasoning for that? My feelings on it is that a sudden change like this can cause an undesirable upset in the plane's movement through the air. I just don't see flaps as an "ON/OFF" thing.

I remember him saying something about digital servos like to get where they’re going as quickly as possible and slowing them adds more strain.