Red or blue motors

[Rubicon99]

Wow, you are RIGHT!! I have knock offs Red 390 motors darnit. I put these nasty things in both my Leopard and M1A1. I haven't run at speed too much since we just put them in last weekend. I have anther pair so that is why the KV-1 & Stug question.

Now where do we buy the real deal. I didn't see any on the Motion RC site and they appear to be out of EVERYTHING anyway. I assume we go to a legit dealer like Forgebear or IMEX etc. Thank you so much for your insight and help. We're are fairly new at the tank game and we are just starting to do upgrades like motor swaps, 360 turret rotations and we have even added a targeting laser to one of our tanks. We are pretty much alone in Utah and haven't been able to locate or hookup with any clubs. So...we have stayed with Heng Long and resisted buying some of the higher end tanks to purschase and picking up more H/L's and hopping them up because we only play among ourselves. Between our family and grandsons we have 13 Heng Long tanks. We bought the first five from Motion and the rest from Ebay.

I'm sorry, I don't think I'm going to $1200 bucks on the new fancy models Motion is starting to bring in. Frankly I feel kind bad being all excited about our awesome $200 - $300 dollar units (which is alot of money to me) and then have RCMotion starting to bring in $1000 tanks just because they can't get anything anymore. Did we waste our hard earned money on cheap crap? Sorry for the rank but I'm old and tired.

Thank you again for your help, I really appreciate it very much.

Grandpa

The safest place to buy red 390 motors is Tucanhobby until Motion starts to stock them.They list them on eBay or you can buy off their web sight. Everyone I have bought from them has been real. It’s when I used other various Asian seller that I have received fakes.

The fakes do work as long as you use old style RC 7.2v NiMH or NiCad batteries as these don’t exceed their voltage ratings. Easy to find online or at hobby stores.

I would say since you have the motors, just run them and see what happens. You might luck out and have some that will hold up?

No you did not waist your money buying HL tanks. They are tougher in most respects then the Tamiya tanks and far easier to work on. They might not be as “detailed” but also not bad for the money and can be made to look quite good with a new paint job and a few extra parts.

The Tamiya tanks tend to be more for those that enjoy the model building aspect of the hobby vs the hard running outdoor RC side of the hobby. Both have there place and both have folks that cross over to enjoy different aspects of the hobby.

If you have access to Instagram feel free to take a lot at mine @ fsttanks. Most of the tanks are HL but there are a few that are Tamiya as well.

[Olddowl53]

Once again Thank You for your insight and expertise.

Now I feel a lot better about the time and money we have put into our H/L units. WE LOVE OUT TANKS, and we beat the heck out them. We are always popping off tracks or busting parts off going thru thick bushes. My son in law who is a professional mechanic has up graded his tanks so they are crazy tough. They other day my Bulldog Pro kept throwing the left track. He took and said he would give the tracks (which are metal) and suspension a tune up. A couple of hours later he dropped it off and told my wife that he upgraded something and she couldn't remember. I took the tank out to the park and ran it thru the planted areas that look like a miniature forest and it ran great and the tracks didn't even slip. When I got back he was there with the grandkids and ask me how I liked the 360 turret. WHAT!! I didn't know that he added that and my wife couldn't remember what he told her. It's awesome! Anyway, we are starting to be tankers here. I even bought my oldest who turns 40 on Aug 18th a T-72. We went to Russia together several years ago and was telling his sons about the trip the other day. Both his boys 15 & 13 are huge tank battle fans. The 15 yr old is unbeatable in IR battles. His favorite tank happens to be the KV-1 and he started using that before his dad told him about the Russia trip.

I am familiar with Tucanhobby. I bought my Stug, King Tiger, M26, T-34/85 and Sherman from them from them. I didn't think about parts or spares from them. I will definitely check them out. That's good to know. MotionRC has been really good to work with and super cost competitive. I will gladly start using them when they start stocking up again. I can't imaging how they must feel seeing all the lost opportunity for sales during this weird time the world is going thru right now. We did buy the Bulldog & Abrams through their EU store, but their stock also has dropped to zero also.

Thanks 99, you are awesome,

[fuchstraumer]

If you're looking for a great upgrade red motor + gearbox combo, I can't recommend the enclosed steel gearboxes I got from toucanhobby enough - they come with red motors, and run amazingly well! Put them in my Abrams and it has great low-end torque and fantastic top end speeds. The gearboxes also sound fantastic too - much more quiet than contemporaries, and honestly makes the tanks sound ok even when the sound is turned off.



They're a little tricky to mount, since they sit on a secondary mounting plate that has countersunk screw holes. This mounting plate is screwed into the hull, and then the gearbox assembly slides in and "locks" with that. One screw drops through the gearbox and mounting plate into one remaining hull screw spot, and another screws into threading that joins the gearbox and mounting plate. I'm wondering if this is part of why they're quieter, honestly. Compared to the racket my steel taigen gearbox makes and the consistent din of other steel gearbox types (or the zinc ones), these are just so nice. Really impressed - for $60 I consider these a fantastic deal and will definitely be ordering more for my other models. I did find them to be undergreased though, and had to spend a few minutes getting some white lithium grease on the gears and some nice oil in the bearings: this is pretty par for the course for most OEM tank gearboxes though. I think the only way to beat these is with something like one of those DKLM clutched gearboxes.

Otherwise, if you just want red motors - toucanhobby is your best bet. They have red motors in their US warehouse too, so shipping is considerably quicker (though I've found if you order a big enough order through them, they'll upgrade you to FedEx International instead of the slow speedpak service)

[keilau]

If you're looking for a great upgrade red motor + gearbox combo, I can't recommend the enclosed steel gearboxes I got from toucanhobby enough - they come with red motors, and run amazingly well! Put them in my Abrams and it has great low-end torque and fantastic top end speeds. The gearboxes also sound fantastic too - much more quiet than contemporaries, and honestly makes the tanks sound ok even when the sound is turned off.

I just received my gearbox for the 2005 HL Pershing from e-bay seller, build-for-you, today. Will be working on it the next few days and report my result at the Pershing thread.

I also got some 380/390 heatsink with fan. But I will have to see if they can fit. If no space for the heatsink, I will remove the smoke generator and put a 40mm fan there instead.

[Rubicon99]

I just received my gearbox for the 2005 HL Pershing from e-bay seller, build-for-you, today. Will be working on it the next few days and report my result at the Pershing thread.

I also got some 380/390 heatsink with fan. But I will have to see if they can fit. If no space for the heatsink, I will remove the smoke generator and put a 40mm fan there instead.

You will not need fans with 390 motors in the Pershing. It has plenty of heat venting through the deck grills.

[keilau]

You will not need fans with 390 motors in the Pershing. It has plenty of heat venting through the deck grills.

Thank you for sharing your insight. My plan is to run the Pershing with the new gearbox on my benchtop dynamo (a piece of 2x4 under the tank) with the Mato metal track and monitor the red motor case temperature. With a grey 380 and the original gearbox, the Pershing slowed down by 40% with the Mato track which tells me that this track is a pretty good load to the motor. The cooling fan should not be needed if the motor case temperature stabilizes quickly and does not raise much above ambient.

After reading all the horror story of "fake" red motor and them melting down, I went to the Mabuchi Motor website to look for a genuine 390 motor and did not find one. I suspect that the 390 is a third party derivative of the RS-380. Mabuchi never designed or manufactured a 390 motor. I found a few RC car maker, such as RCAWD, Mxfans, Hosim, who claim their 390 motor to be specifically designed for heat protection, thus long life. Their motors are all 30 grams heavier than the HL (113 vs. 83), rated for 12 volts at 21000 rpm. But still a plastic cooling fan. I have a pair of the Mxfans on order and will be testing them and comparing to the HL red.

Thanks to Mabuchi, today's small DC motor are cheap and reliable. But the brushed DC motor is not the most efficient type (75-80% only), making it susceptible to heat damage when under heavier load.

[Rubicon99]

Thank you for sharing your insight. My plan is to run the Pershing with the new gearbox on my benchtop dynamo (a piece of 2x4 under the tank) with the Mato metal track and monitor the red motor case temperature. With a grey 380 and the original gearbox, the Pershing slowed down by 40% with the Mato track which tells me that this track is a pretty good load to the motor. The cooling fan should not be needed if the motor case temperature stabilizes quickly and does not raise much above ambient.

After reading all the horror story of "fake" red motor and them melting down, I went to the Mabuchi Motor website to look for a genuine 390 motor and did not find one. I suspect that the 390 is a third party derivative of the RS-380. Mabuchi never designed or manufactured a 390 motor. I found a few RC car maker, such as RCAWD, Mxfans, Hosim, who claim their 390 motor to be specifically designed for heat protection, thus long life. Their motors are all 30 grams heavier than the HL (113 vs. 83), rated for 12 volts at 21000 rpm. But still a plastic cooling fan. I have a pair of the Mxfans on order and will be testing them and comparing to the HL red.

Thanks to Mabuchi, today's small DC motor are cheap and reliable. But the brushed DC motor is not the most efficient type (75-80% only), making it susceptible to heat damage when under heavier load.

If you enjoy all the extra work as part of the hobby go for adding a fan. But from my experience unless you are running over 9v in the Pershing or other HL tank with 390 motors then you just don’t need the extra complexity of a fan.

[Zippersnapper]

The safest place to buy red 390 motors is Tucanhobby until Motion starts to stock them.They list them on eBay or you can buy off their web sight. Everyone I have bought from them has been real. It’s when I used other various Asian seller that I have received fakes.

The fakes do work as long as you use old style RC 7.2v NiMH or NiCad batteries as these don’t exceed their voltage ratings. Easy to find online or at hobby stores.

I would say since you have the motors, just run them and see what happens. You might luck out and have some that will hold up?

No you did not waist your money buying HL tanks. They are tougher in most respects then the Tamiya tanks and far easier to work on. They might not be as “detailed” but also not bad for the money and can be made to look quite good with a new paint job and a few extra parts.

The Tamiya tanks tend to be more for those that enjoy the model building aspect of the hobby vs the hard running outdoor RC side of the hobby. Both have there place and both have folks that cross over to enjoy different aspects of the hobby.

If you have access to Instagram feel free to take a lot at mine @ fsttanks. Most of the tanks are HL but there are a few that are Tamiya as well.

I put those same motors that your showing as fakes in my Abrams (you helped me). Did I mention that I got them from Toucan? I did read over your post about the fake motors and how to tell. Toucan being a reputable dealer, and I still ended up with fakes? So the million-dollar question remains: Where to get the real deal?

[Rubicon99]

I put those same motors that your showing as fakes in my Abrams (you helped me). Did I mention that I got them from Toucan? I did read over your post about the fake motors and how to tell. Toucan being a reputable dealer, and I still ended up with fakes? So the million-dollar question remains: Where to get the real deal?

If you bought them from Toucan you probably got real ones🤞. I would run them but not over 8 volts. I have a set of fakes in my KV1 and they have been working well but I do not run more then 7.2v through them.

Another option is to use the Taigen black 390 motors with 3:1 pion gear. These are not quite as high of torque as the HL 390 motor but tend to have slightly higher RPMs. This means the top speed will be faster with minimal to no change in low speed handling (depending on terrain, tank and track types).

[keilau]

I put those same motors that your showing as fakes in my Abrams (you helped me). Did I mention that I got them from Toucan? I did read over your post about the fake motors and how to tell. Toucan being a reputable dealer, and I still ended up with fakes? So the million-dollar question remains: Where to get the real deal?

I suspect that Toucan ships the red motor from the same supplier that HL use. There is no incentive for HL to use high grade motor for their tank. HL did not provide even the most basic spec for their red motor. There is nothing to define what is fake!!

I have seen Toucan bringing out new HL gearbox using RS-540 series motor. It has much more margin in input voltage and heat dissipation. You can easily find genuine Mabuchi RS-540 motor too.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000...%2315608%23124

[Zippersnapper]

I appreciate the responses my friends. I would just caution Rubicon on claiming authentic red 390 motors can be obtained from Toucanhobby....which doesn't seem to be the case. Mine are a dark crimson red with dark vanes inside. I'm NOT saying that Toucan is doing anything underhanded mind you, its just that my purchase seems to be bootlegs according to Rubicon. *Rubicon: I appreciate the advice and will take it under advisement for sure. Thank you.

[Rubicon99]

I appreciate the responses my friends. I would just caution Rubicon on claiming authentic red 390 motors can be obtained from Toucanhobby....which doesn't seem to be the case. Mine are a dark crimson red with dark vanes inside. I'm NOT saying that Toucan is doing anything underhanded mind you, its just that my purchase seems to be bootlegs according to Rubicon. *Rubicon: I appreciate the advice and will take it under advisement for sure. Thank you.

The dark cooling “vanes” would indicate to me authentic motors because historically over the last 5-6 years HL 390 motors always had dark “vanes”. It is the ones with “white” vanes that have a history of melting when run much over 8.4 volts. The fake motor were first warned about here on HS by Alpha, Motion RC head product rep at the time (almost two years ago). It’s one of the reasons I suspect Motion RC held off bring in red motors until recently so they could be assured they were getting the correct motors.

With any suppler from China you run the risk of not getting what you pay for. Toucan though has historically been honest about what they are selling hence the “safest” to buy from I wrote about last year. “Safest” is not a 100% guarantee just means you run the highest chance of getting the correct product vs using other suppliers like those on Aliexpress which many here also use.

With the production problems of the last year or so now in China it would not surprise me that HL is grabbing whatever is available from sub suppliers that they can slap their name on and sell to make up for time and losses regardless of quality. The red 390 motors are most likely in this group and it is hit or miss with supplies. It is quite possible HL could very well have bought a bunch of these lower quality motors and be selling them to unwitting retailers? That is of course just my personal opinion/theory.

Because of the hit or miss quality of the red 390 motors out there in the last year I have switched to recommending the black Taigen 390 motors vs the red 390 motors and this can be seen in a number of posts when talk of motors has come up over the last year.

In conclusion, time has now shown the fakes work (well enough for most people) though they can’t handle what the original 390 could and IF you are not running high voltage (8.4+ or 3 cell lipos) don’t worry about the motors and enjoy your tank. If there is a problem the MFU will most likely shut down before it overloads and burns out🤞 as it is designed to, mine did.

[Zippersnapper]

The dark cooling “vanes” would indicate to me authentic motors because historically over the last 5-6 years HL 390 motors always had dark “vanes”. It is the ones with “white” vanes that have a history of melting when run much over 8.4 volts. The fake motor were first warned about here on HS by Alpha, Motion RC head product rep at the time (almost two years ago). It’s one of the reasons I suspect Motion RC held off bring in red motors until recently so they could be assured they were getting the correct motors.

With any suppler from China you run the risk of not getting what you pay for. Toucan though has historically been honest about what they are selling hence the “safest” to buy from I wrote about last year. “Safest” is not a 100% guarantee just means you run the highest chance of getting the correct product vs using other suppliers like those on Aliexpress which many here also use.

With the production problems of the last year or so now in China it would not surprise me that HL is grabbing whatever is available from sub suppliers that they can slap their name on and sell to make up for time and losses regardless of quality. The red 390 motors are most likely in this group and it is hit or miss with supplies. It is quite possible HL could very well have bought a bunch of these lower quality motors and be selling them to unwitting retailers? That is of course just my personal opinion/theory.

Because of the hit or miss quality of the red 390 motors out there in the last year I have switched to recommending the black Taigen 390 motors vs the red 390 motors and this can be seen in a number of posts when talk of motors has come up over the last year.

In conclusion, time has now shown the fakes work (well enough for most people) though they can’t handle what the original 390 could and IF you are not running high voltage (8.4+ or 3 cell lipos) don’t worry about the motors and enjoy your tank. If there is a problem the MFU will most likely shut down before it overloads and burns out🤞 as it is designed to, mine did.

Awesome sir. That's sounds about right. I for one, am not worried as I don't run my tanks hard. As always, I appreciate your insight & experience.

[Sureshot]

Motion has red 390 motors in stock now under the Admiral brand.
Anyone know anything about them?

https://www.motionrc.com/products/admiral-390-upgrade-motor-for-heng-long-tanks

[keilau]

For the moment, ToucanHobby is selling 3 Henglong Red Motor on e-bay at $25, $26 and $33. The first 2 are shipped from New Jersey and the $33 from China. I look at the green PCB closure at the back. They all look similar. However, buying on e-bay, there is no reassurance that you get the same item as shown in the picture.

The MotionRC Admiral 390 has a different closure PCB with different marking.

The Banggood.com red motor has a similar PCB as the ToucanHobby, but different marking, "KY-380DJ". The red motor that came with the Heng Xin gearbox (see Post #24) has the same marking. Yes, it says 380, not 390, which may or may not mean anything.

The pot just thicken. We will know the answer only if someone test all of them under different DC input, loads and monitor the case temperature.

[Alpha]

Rubicon is right; we took our time in 2019 and 2020 to test a few different "red motor" suppliers with input from HL and other persons/sources. I know of at least six suppliers.

Of the ones we tested, there was a wide variation of performance and value, even to the point that we were advised to specifically avoid certain suppliers, citing concerns over performance, value, materials, consistency, availability, or a combination of all of the above. As with all our products, we selected the red motor supplier that best fit the balance we intended to achieve between those and other aspects.

[keilau]

Rubicon is right; we took our time in 2019 and 2020 to test a few different "red motor" suppliers with input from HL and other persons/sources. I know of at least six suppliers.

Of the ones we tested, there was a wide variation of performance and value, even to the point that we were advised to specifically avoid certain suppliers, citing concerns over performance, value, materials, consistency, availability, or a combination of all of the above. As with all our products, we selected the red motor supplier that best fit the balance we intended to achieve between those and other aspects.

Where can I find the test results? I am also interested in the methodology in testing. It may be a little dated, but the information is still valuable.

[keilau]

I did a little test on my own. I ran 3 different motors on the HL German Leopard2A6 Metal Version that I purchased last month. I monitored the motor case temperature until it stabilized. The motors are:

1. HL grey 380 that came with the Leopard RC tank.
2. Red 390 motor that came with the Heng Xin all ball bearing gearbox (See post #23 and #24)
3. MxFans 390 motor purchased at Amazon.

The red motor from Heng Xin performs very well. The case temperature rises less than 20°F above ambient and stabilizes in less than 15 minutes. It shows a well balanced motor with low friction bearings. It is an excellent motor. The HL grey 380 has enough torque to drive the metal gearbox and track, but it is a very poor performer in term of temperature rises and noise. The 380 runs at 15,000 rpm with a track rpm of 41. Both of the 390 motor run at 25,000 rpm with track rpm of 75.

When purchasing a red motor from a reliable source, it should work well most of the time. However, a knock-off is a knock-off. When I searched for name brand (small RC car marketer) 390 motor, I noticed that all of them have a 15-20% complaint of motor burnt off in 5-10 minutes. Unless the motor seller does individual motor testing, the chance of getting an off-spec motor is very high. The motor burns off when the core is off balance and causes extra friction everywhere. The sure way to get a good motor is to test each and every motor purchased before use. If any motor shows fast and excessive case temperature rises or even grinding sound, turn it off. Ask the seller for an exchange or refund immediately.

Henglong never told us what are the motor that they used on the HL RC tanks. They have 3 models that some of the seller call grey 380 blue 380 and red 390. From the physical dimension, (the M2.6 mounting screw at 1.6 mm apart and the 2.3 mm shaft) convinced me that they are Mabuchi Motor 300 series knock-offs. HL never tell us what these motors are. From measurement, we know that the 380's runs at 15,000 rpm and the 390's at 25,000 rpm. The OEM gearbox has a 39:1 ratio.

I searched at the Mabuchi Motor website, I found 2 catalogue models of the Mabuchi RS-380PH motors. The -4045 has a 6-12 volts range and runs at 15,000 rpm with 7.2 volts input. The -3270 is rated for 6-15 volts, but runs at lower rpm. Mabuchi has a RS-380SH for 6 volts at higher rpm, but it is for customer manufacture only, no detail technical data in catalogue.

There is NO 390 motor reference at the Mabuchi site. It seems that the 390 motor is a third party derivative of the Mabuchi.

I have several of RS-380 on order from e-bay. Several claim to be Mabuchi and show the engraved Mabuchi logo. I will be doing more test in the next few weeks.

[Rubicon99]

I did a little test on my own. I ran 3 different motors on the HL German Leopard2A6 Metal Version that I purchased last month. I monitored the motor case temperature until it stabilized. The motors are:

1. HL grey 380 that came with the Leopard RC tank.
2. Red 390 motor that came with the Heng Xin all ball bearing gearbox (See post #23 and #24)
3. MxFans 390 motor purchased at Amazon.

The red motor from Heng Xin performs very well. The case temperature rises less than 20°F above ambient and stabilizes in less than 15 minutes. It shows a well balanced motor with low friction bearings. It is an excellent motor. The HL grey 380 has enough torque to drive the metal gearbox and track, but it is a very poor performer in term of temperature rises and noise. The 380 runs at 15,000 rpm with a track rpm of 41. Both of the 390 motor run at 25,000 rpm with track rpm of 75.

When purchasing a red motor from a reliable source, it should work well most of the time. However, a knock-off is a knock-off. When I searched for name brand (small RC car marketer) 390 motor, I noticed that all of them have a 15-20% complaint of motor burnt off in 5-10 minutes. The only sure way to get a good motor is to test each and every motor purchased before use. If any motor shows fast and excessive case temperature rises, turn it off. Ask the seller for an exchange or refund immediately.

Henglong never told us what are the motor that they used on the HL RC tanks. They have 3 models that some of the seller call grey 380 blue 380 and red 390. From the physical dimension, (the M2.6 mounting screw at 1.6 mm apart and the 2.3 mm shaft) convinced me that they are Mabuchi Motor 300 series knock-offs. HL never tell us what these motors are. From measurement, we know that the 380's runs at 15,000 rpm and the 390's at 25,000 rpm. The OEM gearbox has a 39:1 ratio.

I searched at the Mabuchi Motor website, I found 2 catalogue models of the Mabuchi RS-380PH motors. The -4045 has a 6-12 volts range and runs at 15,000 rpm with 7.2 volts input. The -3270 is rated for 6-15 volts, but runs at lower rpm. Mabuchi has a RS-380SH for 6 volts at higher rpm, but it is for customer manufacture only, no detail technical data in catalogue.

There is NO 390 motor reference at the Mabuchi site. It seems that the 390 motor is a third party derivative of the Mabuchi.

I have several of RS-380 on order from e-bay. Several claim to be Mabuchi and show the engraved Mabuchi logo. I will be doing more test in the next few weeks.

What voltage are you running the motors at? 7.2 from a NiMH, 7.4(8.4) from a Lipo? Also what is the amp rating of the batteries being used in the testing. High voltage above 8.4 and under loads is the usual cause of motors starting to run very hot. 8.4 and down and they stay reasonably cool and within the range that will not melt plastic or cause burns when touched.

Since 7.4v Lipos (8.4v peak) are becoming more popular with tanks and what come supplied from the factory, it would be advantageous to use 8.4v as the test medium.

I look forward to reading more of your test results, good information so far👍👍

[keilau]

What voltage are you running the motors at? 7.2 from a NiMH, 7.4(8.4) from a Lipo? Also what is the amp rating of the batteries being used in the testing. High voltage above 8.4 and under loads is the usual cause of motors starting to run very hot. 8.4 and down and they stay reasonably cool and within the range that will not melt plastic or cause burns when touched.

Since 7.4v Lipos (8.4v peak) are becoming more popular with tanks and what come supplied from the factory, it would be advantageous to use 8.4v as the test medium.

I look forward to reading more of your test results, good information so far👍👍

I prefer Lithium Ion battery for their high energy density and longer constant voltage period. They are also safer than soft pad LiPo. I use a SkyRC iMAX B6 Mini charget which cuts off charging any Lithium battery at 8.2 volts, not 8.4 for longer battery life. For most of the test this time, the battery pack was between 7.9-8.0 volts which happened to be at that value. I have one EBL pack with 4A continuous and 8A peak. Another pack uses Orbtronic cells which are 10A continuous and 15A peak. Either one meet the RC tank motor need with plenty to spare. Unlike the NiMH, the LiIo does not drop in voltage very fast. The packs are 5 Ah and 6 Ah respectively. An one hour test did not draw them down much.

I did the test on a M26 Pershing 3838 with plastic track first. I repeated the test on the Leopard with metal track. No major difference in the temperature results.

I do not expect cheap DC motor to use high temperature thermoplastic like nylon or polycarbonate. But it cannot use low melting temperature plastic, Today, we have microwave tolerant plastic which are quiet cheap and has good temperature capacity. I expect low end DC motor to use similar plastic for the fan and closure. "The only sure way to get a good motor is to test each and every motor purchased before use."

Thank you.