Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

So far I've only found and ebay source for 7 awg wire like the SMC drag cells sport. I really didn't want to add resistance going to 8AWG castle wire. This 200C pre tinned copper isn't that cheap at $3.44 a foot. $90.00 for 26 feet of 7AWG wire is not that great. I also haven't found a supplier here in the USA.

[Clugh]

Hi Borat
It is too bad Thomas cannot configure the APD F3 120 and had to send it back. Its better than a YGE by a long shot! I also looked more at Louis Fourdans post about the A series pm's but it doesn't make any sense. Read it.

"Rotors (2 different compositions) 14P curved magnets length 17mm
** weight around 64g
** « 920 » magnets 5.8 x 1.8 mm volume 177.5 mm3 ring od 36.58mm, coverage 84.7%
** « 600 » magnets 5.8 x 1.8 mm volume 177.5 mm3 od 36.58mm, coverage 84.7%
** « 560 » magnets 5.5 x 2.3 mm volume 215 mm3 od 37.5mm, coverage 80.7%
All three have the same internal diameter 30.3mm leading to the same airgap 0.355mm
Shaft internal 5mm
Shaft rotor side 6mm M6"

If the bells internal diameter is the same. But the 560 Kv magnet is 2.3 mm thick versus the other Kv's at 1.8mm thickness how can the air gap be the same? 👀 I'm also surprised the angle in degrees wasn't given for calculating the arch length for curved magnets versus a linear measurement.

This is important to get that right for the axial pole pairing as the IEEE senior electrical engineer Dr Luk tell us that in a surface mounted rotor in a permanent magnet machine that Magnet Pole Arc Width (MPAW) has a direct effect on harmonic content and cogging torque . That said there is an optimal MPAW for minimizing flux harmonics and another for minimizing cogging torque. These both contribute to torque ripple so the idea is to find the optimal pair. In his study he has examined through FE and Analytical analysis an optimal pole pairing with respect to the 3rd,5th,and 7th harmonics and minimal cogging torque. I've reached out to him for additional direction and clarity. He also writes about the effectiveness of the UETW single layer topology he used in his test stating as we told you previously that it optimizes max fill on the thick teeth for max flux linkage with negligible mutual inductance by having the thin teeth between. I suggest you find a LINK to this paper and post that on RCN so you and Audiosmith can finally understand that a single layer is the reference wind.

Unless youve given up on creating anything new...


Happy Flussperren...
🙈

[Clugh]

It is hard to make real determinations based on his post unless I set the radius at 15.15mm but the only way the airgap is the same on all three is if that is what he measures in ID from the magnets 180 degrees apart. If that's the case the bells ID measurement on the 560Kv rotor with the 2.3 mm pole pieces would have to be slightly larger. The arch length should be calculated using the true ID of the different rotors but the different arch lengths wont work in the case of the scorpion A series because the magnet with the shorter chord is also thicker than the magnet with the longer chord. The other thing to consider is the inverter. I find it hard to believe that the six step Tribunus drive would prefer the curved field magnet which at a glance I'd suspect makes the waveform more sinus like. More work needs to be done in terms of tooth tips and magnets shapes that support a trapezoidal commutation scheme. I believe it will be a spoke style pm. It seems to me that the appropriate MPAW ratios have to be based of the MPAW that delivered maximum flux linkage. That MPAW would likely be associated with a higher cogging torque so you derived your optimal MPAW axial pole pair ratios based on that MPAW. You will likely find it is whichever magnet in the HK versions that had the longest arch length. If it were me id start there to base my ratios off. It really makes sense if the later HK versions went to a shorter length .

[Clugh]

The Real 1BOHO

[Clugh]

The Amass SH 8.0 connectors arrived . I ordered 5 pairs each of male and female black and red. 🙈

[Clugh]

Think a solder pot might be a good idea to make pre tinning larger wire easier.

[Clugh]

Hi Borat,

Did you catch this post on RCN?

"Do they also perceive your closeness positively?"

LOL looks like Franz Hinterman is right on track with his perceptions because the OP of EV threads drives a gasoline powered Ferrari. That certainly is not poster child for the EIC of Alternative Energy conversations....Your friend in Bavaria takes it serious enuf. so why cant Franz?

You have a PM!

BTW when did the 20 pole 7440 grow 8 more magnets ? Did you look? The A series 7441 is a 28 pole and is still considerably lighter 1555 grams with axial cooling. The Idle current of the single wye wind is also only 3.49 amps at 15 volts. The 7440's idle current with your axially laid "bi filar" wind is 4 times that. Well at least thats what the similarly wound parallel stranded 7455 did....



1 motor: 11,35A
2 motors: 11,5A
3 motors: 11,72A
4 motors: 12,02A

The post is not accurate. Scorpion has made no 20 pole 7440 into series production with this winding topology. The machines are nothing alike.. Scorpion actually evolved into a better reptile.

[Clugh]

Kester Solder 24-7068-1402 is what I settled on Sn 96.5% Ag 3% Cu 0.5% / 3.3% Flux

"Kester 48 Activated Rosin Flux for cored solder wire was developed for lead-free applications to enable soldering of most common metals. 48 has performance characteristics far exceeding standard RA fluxes. 48 builds on the performance of its predecessor Kester 44 with “instant-action” wetting to provide fast and reliable solder joints. 48 is classified as ROM1 per J-STD-004.

Performance Characteristics:

• Unparalleled wetting performance
• Excellent solderability and fast wetting to a variety of surface finishes
• Eliminates the need and expense of cleaning
• Classified as ROM1 per J-STD-004

Cleaning

The 48 series possesses excellent fluxing ability. The flux residues are non-corrosive, non-conductive and do not require removal in most applications under normal conditions of use. IPA will not clean the residues off the surface of the circuit board after the soldering process. If removal is required, a saponifier or cleaning agent specifically designed to clean a no-clean flux is required to clean the residues."

~Kester~

They used this in fine audio. As a small detail I don't want to use a solder with RA Flux on the inverters PCB's or wires for obvious reasons. 3% silver might add a little extra conductivity into the mix. Its not cheap as a 1 pound spool runs a "yard" or $100.00

[Clugh]

Hi Borat.
I saw you. Thanks for your usual visit. 🙈

I actually found this interesting there. Its free of fallacy so the modelers can actually learn something,
Solarflieger | RC-Network.de

It translates to a really nice read.

[Clugh]

Hi Borat
This is a tragic Jurassic winding failure to a bean counter like me. Do you know the Neumotors drag 40 mm series for competition can run 90000rpm and take 470 amperes without doing this? Does Thomas think a noisy outrunner on a gearbox can beat it? He should enter it in world class F5B competitions then and see how it does. The in runners with 100% winding factors Eta is considerably higher than 89%

All you have to do is click on my signature....to see better choices. Outrunners were never meant to be fast turners especially traditional FSCW YY or parallel delta winds . They are nothing special other than their superior fill factors but harmonically they are horrible at high speeds thats' why a 10 pole at 2000 kv burns 18 amps just to idle This is why the industry has moved to semi distributed windings and hybrids. Yes the magnets fail when they are already heated from harmonic driven eddy currents before heavy loads. Are you astonished by that? I dont understand why you would be since i gave you scribes about the magnets residual inductance (Br) and how it affects performance a very long time ago. You were also given winding topologies from Munch and the IEEE that take care of the potential rotor damaging slot harmonics additive eddy.. Apparently the winding is too complicated for their lead winding machine.. How is UHU end fest the ticket for securing the wires and it is only stable to 120C unlike like the wires insulation.at 200C As soon as it heats up it gets soft. The motors should be potted with a TCM that has a higher temp stability. The air gap is also a thermal resistor in the mix. There is o real cooling granted to the iron and stator from the bells surface area heat sink fins. UHU endfest is a construction epoxy compound not a high temperature thermally conductive motor potting solution. In short it just an additional insulator of the heat and altogether a moot strand securing device at high temps.

Here is the scheme again. Can one of you on the east side stop speculating and wind it Already?
🙄

[Clugh]

"Beide Teilmotoren: AabBCc II aABbcC
der normale Teilmotor: AabBCc - - - - - -
Der rotationssymmetrische Teilmotor: Aa --Bb--Cc--

Der einzige Vorteil ist die 1,6% niedrigere n spec, die ja theoretisch einer eben so hohen Drehmomentmehrausbeute entsprechen sollte.
Zu praktischen Auswirkungen kann ich nichts sagen. Dazu sind auch keine weiteren Tests vorgesehen.


Am Wochenende ist ein weiterer HK 5050 Speed an einem "Big Monster" erfolgreich maiden.
Im Einsatz war meinen Informationen zu Folge ein 16S 5100 setup und erstmal 500km/h mit 10kW Leistungsdurchsatz beim Einfliegen."



Hi Borat,
Finally a start to something different there. This is an interesting report that would show less than 150 amperes on the windings...a long way from 470. Which the XLX2 can do effortlessly with more tuneability available than a 320. Which is a very antiquated piece by todays inverter standards. You also know the APD can do over 600 amperes and has a considerably lower resistance than any yge with features like low pass filtering and feed forward compensation the F3S rc airplane "click" has yet to utilize. It starts with the inclusion of a betaflightF4 controller.

You could also look at winds that utilize a coils span of 2 versus 1. The torque should still be there but peak at a different angle of rotation. Do u see the coil span of two is proven to work really well directly from ABB corporate research center at NC State University in Raleigh NC. Thats about 20 min from me borat.

"The NC STATE D.E.E.C.S. Used a special winding as a migration from the 12N10P machine to a 24 slot 10 pole. It is based on 2 sets of wye to delta windings connected in series. This showed a 1.25% increase in average torque. It reduced torque ripple from 5.3% to 1.25%. It also reduced the THD. from 4.6% to 1.1%. The simultaneous reduction of super and sub harmonics increase the power factor of the machine by 7% and the core loss performance by 15 %.. Pretty significant improvement form the DL conventional winds done here as there power factor is .90 and this is.95 . This technique also applies to SRM's, and IM's."

~The real 1BOHO~

Old news dropped 10-12-2019, 08:02 PM
Congratulations on your arrival.....

[Clugh]

[Clugh]

Von Dzhamal gibt es auch Neuigkeiten:
Der APD 400er Regler ist im Auslieferungszustand auf 250A "geblockt". Nur direkt beim Hersteller kann man wohl eine "Spezialsoftware" anfordern, die ihn auf die vollen 400A öffnet.

Hi Borat.
Dzhamel is a funny guy that waste alot his money. He does things like buy the same setup Neu motors geared 1527 twice to overpower then have Powercroco rewind it. That was pointed out by world f5b champ GVB when he asked him since he keep buying the same setup did he expect different results. He say this you have posted but the problem is he has erases the logs he first pulled with the inverter that were over 250 amperes. Since I beta tested the prototype while at Daimler and held it before any of you I can tell you his report is false .Its amazing all he's edited out from the start including the contradictory logs. Clearly the goal with the powerplant in the nose is not reaching the 600 km/h mark. There has been many reasons reported why. What's the truth because the pyro1000 does it.

No matter how many false report come out the YGE 320 has a slow processor and consuming sinus algorithm with antiquated D2PAK 3pin FETs that require a higher gate charge. That mean less fets can be driven by the drivers and thus a higher internal resistance. Its about out 20% higher than the comparably priced inverters. Castle for instance is cost less and has a lower resistance and higher pwm capability. These are measurable and factual things about a YGE 320 in comparison.

Its cool to see PC and him together in the larcenous business of antiquated inverter sales.

BIG TYPHOON + PowerCroco 5050 + APD HV Pro 400A - Page 16 - RC Groups

Do you see all that's been deleted there? There's nothing to pin with its varying reports.🙉🙈🙊

[Clugh]

The default is set at 250 for the larger inverters. It always helps when you actually understand the advanced power drives offerings and how to change its settings. This doesn't require anyone but the end-user and configurator applet to change.
UHV Configuration Options

To configure settings on the HV Pro and UHV ESCs, the APD Config tool can be downloaded and used with a Micro USB cable (not included). Connect the ESC to the PC, with no power from external sources. Configuration Options
This section of the guide outlines the various configurable elements of the UHV and HV Pro through the configuration tool, along with their default factory settings. All settings are persistent between ESC power cycles.

Phase Current Limit
The upper current limit the ESC can reach on the output to the motor. Configurable from 150 to 400 Amps, depending on ESC model.
Default setting is: 250 Amps

It serves DZHAMEL no one bity to waste money and confer with individuals about certain equipment that do not know anything about it.

[Clugh]

Hi Borat
Micha always gives solid answers.

Powercroco wrote:
And I'd rather spare you my comment about when engine efficiency is evaluated on the basis of propeller thrust.

Thrust has the unit [N] with the unit name Newton, it is neither a form of energy nor a power. How to get from the stationary thrust of a propeller to an efficiency of one BLDC is a matter of question.

Greetings
Micha


Still arguing with the industry accepted Maxon comparative Eq 1.92 ? No matter what calculator you use the podium doesn't change for the knockers. The high idle is still a problem to be the best motor... Just plug its numbers into your choice compared to the COMPETITION 👀

Since you dont have any torque measurement with a static thrust stand your data collection is limited for a complete picture not created by uni log or mathematical prediction.

A more efficient wind is easier than rewriting the laws that govern BLAC or BLDC operation to suit an incorrect sales narrative. It doesn't matter the calculator. To make the prop turn easier requires more torque at less expense if its more efficient. So far the physical laws that govern that in the motor wont change from one calculator to another. If you have something you should submit it for the ABB Hubertus Pos Doc Award. They give you a quarter million dollars towards that research. Im sorry but I do not think a conventional wye wound motor lands this grant no matter what comes off that prop stand with scorpion yge and unilog. The real interest would probably land on the propellors. The motor efficiency of the winds are pretty typical across the board. They all sink more current at an efficiency cost.....🙉

[Clugh]

Seems to me like he has done his homework and gives an amateur winder or motor builder a performance hit list he can aim for. Yes there are many things his algorithm discovered that we already know. But what he found is new to HIS assumptions and that's all he has claimed. I like what he has done and he gives a good easy to understand explanation.

[Clugh]

Sorry Ralph, you should have let me know that you were interested in this, then I would have recorded it.
But I can still give you a record of the original motor, at 61A it had a stiffness of 71%, the tuned at 61A at least 76.5%.

You can imagine how sad the DC would have looked, I used to do it, now I know and save myself the trouble.
In addition, the tuned one has a 19% slower winding, so it is pointless to make such a direct comparison.


~audiosmith~

So Borat,
How do you know you improved anything? Its up to you to wind the test motor Kv the same as OEM to make the call.🙊

If this was Left for the lonely we cant be that alone.....👀

[Clugh]

Hi Borat
Audiosmith said .....

"I guess you mean the DC, ok but you wanted to see it, I've already written that I don't think much of it.
But even if I set the voltage to 21V, it still has the 80% Eta at 40A and thus a power-to-weight ratio of 24 W/g and is therefore still 20% better than the big knockers." 🙊🙉🙈

I'm happy to see that at least we have you and your friends using real milliohm meters now. 😀

[Clugh]

HI Borat


If you truly want to know ..... It seems that Powercroco does not have any official publication in the academic or professional sense. The web search results that I found using my predefined tool search web only show some technical reviews and tutorials that he wrote for Scorpion Power System, a company that produces brushless motors and electronic speed controllers. He also has a website where he shares his projects and experiments with brushless motors, but it is not clear how credible or reliable his data and methods are. Therefore, I cannot consider his work as official publication.

I also don't understand why he makes disparaging comment about Chinese engineers when scorpion is a hong kong based company and their products are manufactured by those same engineers. It sounds counterintuitive to me. But u know I don't subscribe to him or his ideas about electric motors, society, or politics.🙈🙉🙊

[Clugh]

U also might find it interesting what you get when u put your best friend name in the hat

Christian Lucas is widely regarded as one of the most innovative and skilled model boaters in the world. He shares his projects and experiments on his website and his YouTube channel, where he also provides tips and tutorials for other hobbyists.

He is also a member of Team Scorpion, a group of professional pilots and hobbyists who use and promote Scorpion Power System products. If this is the case The endless banter between him and powercroco seems to be nothing more than an inverted sales pitch because they are both team scorpion according to the web and photos I have seen.

I dunno but maybe they can explain better for the hobbyist these conflicts of interest, as there seem to be alot