Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

If the Hyperspeed thermals with a 5020 7+7 YY in 1.6 you could wind the 5+5 delta in 1.8mm then in the 2nd level wind a 2+2 or 3+3 YY on top of it shifted 30 degrees then serially connected to the delta for a 4 layer hybrid even though a 10 turn wye you've considered for a lil more fun anyway....

[Clugh]

Hi Ralph,
I read the post in Dzhamels thread but I don't see for "Kai" and others "successful" if it comes with destroying the 1000 dollar motor and 600 dollar inverter.in a run. Thats not a slight but isnt it safe to say it is at it limits versus trying to blame the inverter? The motor also destroyed that so it isn't a worthy sacrifice in my view. The APD still flows for DZ's future flights with no RMA's to oz. The YGE certainly isnt under warranty and neither is the motor so how much does it cost to have all that repaired? U wont post that. I know....👀 Im sure you will say its good enuf for hobby, but damn then i'll just say good enuf for hobby comes at a serious price for the consumers! What did the user save in coin on the 600.00 "DUMM" inverter repair then?

[Clugh]

Borat u have created the new Jonestown!

Not only do they believe your bs about a "green" prop

I also see you got DZHAMEL on the strings since he never shared the APD logs.....and locked the videos to ensure access to the exclusionary practice of the eastern block! Props , motors, etc. Keeping access is what its all about baby!!!

[Clugh]

But still the windings are antiquated by todays new tech....and the motors still suffer total thermal break down running into damag and you say that's acceptable. Check out this photo Ralph. This is the Yasa axial flux winding topology. It is a wye to delta hybrid. Work out the vectors and calculate the Kw
🙈🙉🙊

[Clugh]

🌟 Electro Dzhigit replied: "Yes, of course. I can share it in my thread, or private message to you if you want. It is not secret."


Is what he told me Ralph and that has not happened for hobbyists. IMO you are running a scam strictly to promote antiquated tech from yourself for a profit Dr Okon..

[Clugh]

If you are honest tell him we are waiting for the logs!!!!!!

[Clugh]

Making money is great but a true education is more important to me.

4c6653d59a08b968e0a67d3c10c22266990b.pdf (semanticscholar.org)

Here is an excellent paper on the subject matter of harmonics and motor THD. You can draw from this a few obvious optimizations and may even come to a similar conclusion that I have about the scorpions. The 45 series should have been a better motor so apparently its airgap and pole/magnet arc width ratio was not set optimally compared to the 50. It still seem clear however that a smaller diameter longer stack is the better idea for a machine with a better power factor. I think dragging a huge rotor around not the most efficient overall design. Your friend Lucas had something negative to say in his rants about the stack length of the Neu drag motors . I can remember exactly Ill have to find that. That obviously goes against what the field has to say. if you can believe the reasoning and test results of academia versus consumer electronic operatives on the hobby forums. But even they can see the academic suggestion here that smaller diameter rotors are more efficient and better producers of real power meaning torque and rpm not the clamp meter and torque constant flash cards 👀

That could only be a constant line estimate anyway. If the inverter has a specific start setting soft/normal/hard or current limit setting etc the Tq line couldn't be constant in real practice could it? . You also cannot accept the constant BLDC torque Speedline from Maxon then simultaneously avoid their mathematical analysis of your motor that placed itt Eta 3% less than the Align. See how you try to burn the candle at both ends PC? Remember the Maxon Analysis of your 2mm 8 strand DD against my single layer 1.828mm 2 strand BKA YY that had 5 times the DC resistance? The 1milliohm scorpion motor also calculated as less power dense and I never wound it for a profit. The other side is its AC resistance was 6 times less😶 These analysis were based off empirically measured constants running with inverters.


Also with the large diameter heavy rotors there is the flywheel effect and that needs to be studied more as it relates to Kv even in academia. In my mind Kv only deals with the terminal velocity not the part where the application of the voltage and current takes milliseconds to accelerate the rotor to that velocity . I care less what the Kv is . The weight and diameter of the rotor bell will affect the surge and braking current needed to start and stop.

[Clugh]

"In any case, it will be interesting to see whether Dzhamal will be able to exceed the 610km/h seen.
This Pilot has used only a normal black propeller!

Can't wait to see a 620km/h log - if he will burn the motor with this speed he will get a repair free of charge as the other pilot also got.
With only 619km/h of course not....


"Can't wait to see a 620km/h log - if he will burn the motor with this speed he will get a repair free of charge as the other pilot also got.
With only 619km/h of course not...".

So let me get this straight and understand if your plane get his motor across the finish line at 620km/h the repair is free but if u burn it up 1000 times and dont make it there is no warranty and you pay. What a warranty that is no warranty but motivates the unwarranted burning. I guess you fans will fall for this too. LOL!! It doesnt make sense because the 620 may not be the result of the engine is if a special flying technique and plane designed only by Marcus is needed. That doesnt reflect just the motor from an intelligent consumers standpoint. Alot of people are an easy sale to the made in Germany stamp but Im yet to see whats so great about that stamp when the company is based in Hong Kong. 👀 That label means zero. Lehner also claims hand crafted but use a hydraulic press for prefabricated coils only they can produce and post magnetization assembly for their rotors . Even though they make excellent engines u can see everyone stretches the truth for a profit and will ride the made in Germany label clear to the bank on the American subjects dollar when there are truly ;lower cost options that perform as well. The sourcing the raw material from china so it does not matter anyway. All that's bs! Hobbyist should test the motors for themselves and not believe a salesmen with no gravatas.


What a remote answer to post # 202 in this thread on remote control groups that U could have just posted that here directly since you are here ...👀 but I guess there is some personality complex that motivates these bizarre actions💥

Bizzare since you stalked me here and made the 3rd post in this thread that got your friends turbine thread totally removed from the forums u may as well keep talking. but I guess you arent capable of answering to my face or DIRECT dialog . Yeah see you here bruh that's bizarre.

We know its you with no location Dr Ralph Okon.

Duh...

[Clugh]

U want to see modern winds . I know u don't want your fans to know you the "guru" is fully subscribed here and anywhere I'm at but its okay. Loose lipped hobbyist that can wrap copper around iron will learn how to use diagnostics like a PA or scope to test it one day😘


Happy Hybrids.....
Hubert

[Clugh]

[Clugh]

See the HK 5020's real rotor field magnitudes at 1.5 khz fundamental
Do u see that significant triplen current @ 4.5 kilo in FFT analysis "Dr"?
Unilog on a prop stand does not show u this noise the motor makes!

[Clugh]

We can talk about REAL power when you start to measure the current and voltage and calculate the thd and phase shifts.
Until then Powerditto is an unpublished site on the subject matters showing only an elementary understanding in electric motors and actually testing the electronics. The remote posting to answer me is an entirely different problem u need to address. I knew the truth about the topology long ago....

[Clugh]

The IEEE defines harmonic content as “a measure of the existence of harmonics in a voltage or current waveform expressed as a percentage of the amplitude of the fundamental frequency at each harmonic frequency Fig.1

Theories you say

IEEE Recommended Practices and Requirements for Harmonic Control in Electrical Power Systems. Recognized as an American National Standard (ANSI) , (Revision of IEEE SM 519-1981. Karel Hruska, Vladimir Kindl, Roman Pechanek, Pavel Svetlik Design Possibilities of Multiple-Pole Cylindrical Rotor Synchronous Machine Excitation Winding, Industrial Electronics Society, IECON, 40th Annual Conference of the IEEE, At Dallas Conference Paper · February 2014. Then u can go further and cross reference this work to further concurrence old as you are.

[Clugh]

The BEMF line voltage FFT analysis is even more telling. The Triplen heats the winding, rotor and stator up and also eats the bearings and motor shaft. This is no green prop bs from Berlin. This is real!

[Clugh]

BTW PC itz sad news about Yuri. He was very creative, but soon after they want the molds 👀 and it shows we must pass on the gifts to someone without fail to live on. Profit cannot be the only motivator to create something great and stand on a mountain. U have to have a tru passion and really care about it. The fact that you cannot even have a serious conversation with Thomas without fallacy about it tells me everything. On the German social media you all cant have a conversation without needing moderator intervention. Look at your pages there and all the brooms its needs WITHOUT ME pimp.... 😀


I hope you all are more serious about technical discussion in 2024 without the lies, bs, and fallacy.

if you tell them something about the motors and equipment that is not true and they believe it. that lives forever on after you are gone. U don't want to do that as a serious minded hobbyist or scientist Broski ....

I'm sorry, but In that regard you and Luke are a huge disappointment to me. So for 2024 if that's how you post I certainly wont respond to your remote plugs or pop shots anymore nor check in to see if you are doing anything actually interesting in the name of motor building and winding tech and not a sale. .

If you want to take remote shots at my work and brand choices u may but you see since you are here I'm not remote. Enjoy the sales but I'm done wasting my time trying to help you.

I have a lot to try to accomplish this year.

You take care and happy holidays into the new year.

Hubert

[Clugh]

BEMF FFT analysis an old 5020 single layer at 1.5 khz fundamental. Louis Fordan says he plan to bring his scope into the discussions so I hope for that. I would love to see the Axial bi filar winds for sure. I guess Ill have to post that myself. for clarity.

If anyone is interested.....

[Clugh]

If you compare a distributive lap wound high speed inrunner to a fractionally slotted concentrated wound high pole count outrunner you will see the outrunner at high rpms generate quite a bit of iron loss in comparison. The cleanest applicable outrunner should be the Xnova 24 slot 8 pole machines. The Kw is 1.

NEW! 40XX Lightning xnova rc helicopter motors | XNOVA MOTORS

[Clugh]

But its not 2024 yet LOL😀😀

Look at what you said.

02-28-2016, 09:06 AM	#49 (permalink)
1BOHO Registered Users Thread Starter Join Date: May 2014 Location: Research Triangle Park	Quote: Originally Posted by powercroco here we are at the point: what is "much"? noone can come out of the dependences of the often shown "over all losses" diagramm. if all "other losses" without "copper losses" at the point of work are only 1-2% you cannot generate a difference, what is high enough to meassure it clean with our instruments. also P in = volts * amps P out = torque * rpm in combination with: p out = P in * efficiency shows clearly, that there is no much room for improvement anymore under the given conditions. the most important thing in modeling: to get 5% better efficiency (really impossible at the point we reached) will give someone only 5% more battery duration. instead off 300sec you will get 315sec flighttime. and these 15sec more will double the price of the motor....... and one more thing: a lot of these new ideas bring a meassurable win in big motors, but we never have been able to "scale" these effects down to our motorsizes. I was thinking Ralph that in my sport 15 seconds is alot of time. An entire lap. Will people pay to have another full power lap through the finish line? Absolutely. Looking at the cash they burn already. For Thd measurements would typically only look to the 50th harmonic so for 1k that would be out to 50khz, over double the highest audible. There is also still reason in my reading to use an insulated bearing. Non insulated can carry the triplen harmonic currents. If the steel shafts are not expanding from heat I see no reason you wouldn't be able to use a full ceramic. It is stronger, has less drag, and is electrically insulated. Last edited by 1BOHO; 02-28-2016 at 01:10 PM..

02-28-2016, 11:28 AM	#50 (permalink)
powercroco Registered Users Join Date: Oct 2011	since I build motors only for use, my point of view has changed - away from all these based on several theoretic possible improvements. we run our speedplanes full throttle all the time and we have less than 60 sec untill the battery is empty. 5% more eff. would mean 3sec more runtime. we have about 3 or max. 4 flights through the meassuerement system into these 60sec. so 5% arn't important for us. important is "only" a thermically stabil drive system, good propeller and very good pilot. in every motor we found an rpm area, where the esc frequency and the motor resonance frequency seem to come together. to use the drive at these rpm, will destroi the motor be throwing away the magnets. this is more important in 14P than in 10P motors.

If that's the case as Ive been asking you and Christian for a long time why do you all talk about part load efficiency inverters in a SAW plane? Ive asked you that for at least 6 years. The 6 step drive makes more torque and is much more efficient at wot. This was 2016 isn't it time for me to let go??? You say thermally stabile is all you need yet you have damaged pm and burnt windings already in your hands everyday.... It sounds foolish because higher efficiency means less heat and a higher delivery of power for mehr speed or endurance. Who doesn't want higher efficiency in an electric power system....👀 5 % more efficiency is an incredible amount more of throughput power. About 100% more there Dr Okon. You might want to refer to some old notes weve shared throughout the years. and the Efficiency showed in the challenge with the power density calculation . The significantly higher eta makes a significant difference throughout the machine.

[Clugh]

Lets go all the way back to 2015 when you were told yet you made the post above about efficiency in 2016.. You dont listen and we cant help that.. Ill be damned if double the throughput power going from 90 - 95 % efficiency a (factor of 2) isnt useful for more speed...
U bugging out with your post . efficiency is basically everything in e power.

General case

Going from efficiency η

old

to efficiency η

new

would give an increase in maximum power motor can handle by factor N

N = (1 - ηold) / (1 - ηnew)

[Clugh]

Now that we have concurrence that a F3S speed plane runs at wot you'd have to explain the statement how the inverter with the much higher internal resistance delivers more power with the transistors fully on? no matter what the source. Most hobbyist know and there is also a full review that a castle also has a lower resistance than a yge and runs more efficiency at wot. That test is on unrestricted you tube Ralph . Everyone has access to those videos.