Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

This is you own description of your motor. After you reread it i want you to consider you DC wins all theory with no care of the ac losses and elevated temperature at the applicative loads. Recalculate you dc based on the real rersistance in maxon 1.92 and see how bad your efficiency dropped.

• Tuesday at 16:43

• #500

"I did the 1000V test - more for fun.
And lo and behold, the insulation between winding and stator was still complete.
So it made sense to disconnect all the connections and test all the wires individually.
This result was also surprising: only at a single point (in the picture at 12 o'clock) there was a leak between 2 groups.
You can see the discoloration there very nicely.

The cut wires clearly show that in many places more than 200°C has acted.
At least the Kapton insoles have not been damaged - the material used is rated at 400°C.

The magnets also look really good.

All in all, it was clearly an overload damage.
At some point, it's over. From my point of view, this is clearly bearable if you know the result that you have just flown.
Now all the owner has to do is decide what he wants to put on the quasi-ready-to-wrap blank next. "
~powercroco~

Now this is your statement on you own motor not mine. So now that we have concurrence on the temps its seeing lets look at what you think the dc resistance is.

Do you see at 140C the resistance is 55% higher you're over 200C Ralph so what do you think the real resistance is sir. I don't have to calculate this for you do I? German social media is extremely neglectful to the physics of it all. Ive included the nomenclature for the amateur hobbyist on the German social media

[Clugh]

Are you even remotely aware that at that temp the extrapolated result is a 78% increase in dc resistance. The AC is 10 times that.so I dont have to tell you where your efficiency truly is at such a load. Your DC theories are the main reason Powercrocos winding repair shop stays in full swing. You can see by the DC the power you think you're getting that is has plenty of loss in heat associated with the unilog reports this is why you have to look at things like the power factor with other methods and diagnostic tools like a PA or oscilioscope. Kill the wunderbar.

👀

[Clugh]

You keep posting this nonsense to support an antiquated and relatively noisy winding topology talking about theory versus practice but here are the empirical results from your motors in their intended application. RC groups should ask themselves from what they see in you real result here and damaged 600.00 inverters... is it adequate? I see the plenty of same damage on layer one here with less endfest so what a theory you have😀

[Clugh]

I mean firstly who does this and expect better thermal performance and then decides to Trump the entire engineering world with its eyeballed not measured results in relation to conductor and current density locations in the slot. To speak from this kind of work in the wrong material at that is truly an embarrassment for a "guru" I can see all the time and attention to detail taken here. U can see this is a serious minded scientist bringing this BS! forth. I hate the say it BECAUSE YOU TRULY HAVE A RIGHT TO POST but you need to be quiet and stop posting this nonsense on the forums because you are not helping anyone self aggrandizing this poor craftsmanship and antiquated winding style that beginners can pull off at this point. Danker16 can wind for a profit in 3 tries...be real with yourself its time to evolve brother. You charge a 1000 euros for this.

All the copper in the slot also serves as a heat sink. Do you think a 8 layer pcb dissipates less heat "Dr Okon"?

I do have a question Ralph. Does the epoxy adhere to the entry level Kapton? 😀. Looks like you pulled it out fairly easy.... 🙈would that mean the entire assembly could slide back and forth on tooth and kapton? Typically you need a special epoxy to bond to unprepped kapton. Did you know that Dr. Okon??

[Clugh]

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The daily winders news......😉

[Clugh]

Powercroco

User

• 16. November 2023

• #497

"Der 5025 tut wie er soll.

Der 4225 noch nicht: die n-spec ist mit der gegrillten Glocke 10% höher, als mit der neuen.
Also wird die getauscht. Die Bausätze aus meiner Kiste haben meiner Meinung nach sogar noch die N50EH Magneten drin.

Dazu gibts auch Kapton in die slots, neue Lager und die 6+7x1,32YY.

damit wird er den besten der aktuellen Werksmotoren übertreffen:"



But this is not the entire picture Dr Okon that you damaged the magnets meaning they exceeded 180C in this "example" of your motor. Have you considered this before the curie? It lost sufficient flux to do anything more or possibly even commutate (dysync) before it reached terminal temperatures to lose the 10% of its torque constant when it cooled down. Also I told you attempting to zap the rotor may have brought full functionality back to the original rotor pm. This cannot be slander because it is your own report.

Typically for 100C temperature rise, NdFeB magnets will lose 11%of the magnetic flux, SmCo magnets will lose 3% magnetic flux and ferrite magnets will lose 20% magnetic flux . You don't believe that unless you test it for yourself? But I've already talked to you before about the pm residual inductance as a function of temperature 👀

[Clugh]

If you plan to test for it yourself you have a task ahead...
Residual induction





Residual induction is also called magnetic flux density or field B. It is the physical quantity which indicates the intensity of the magnetic fields, that is to say the induction which remains in a saturated magnetic material once the magnetizing field has been removed. We can also call it magnetic flux 0 which crosses perpendicularly a unit of area A. In addition, it can be symbolized by gauss, with which 10,000 gauss refers to 1 tesla. Magnetic induction decreases with increasing temperature.Otherwise, all the internal and external points of the magnet have the possibility of affecting a field intensity B with a certain direction which will be oriented with a needle. The density of magnetic flux can be obtained through the calculation carried out by computer programs, since it requires great complexity. We will show you the most common formulas.



Field B can be obtained from the formula:

• µ0 = the constant which designates the permeability of free space

• q = the charge that created the field

• v = the speed of the charge

• ur = the unit vector

• r = distance from the load point to the point where it is calculated on the ground.

To calculate the magnetic flux density of a conductor perpendicular to the magnetic field line, the formula is:

• B= the density of the magnetic flux

• F = force in Newtons

• I = current ampere

• L= conductor length

contact@imamagnets.com

[Clugh]

Since you feel your radial slot motors work differently than other how will you test empirically the difference flux density in the different slot levels?



Dr Okon YOU don't believe the "Theory" that the most flux density and slot leakage that drives proximity loss is at the slot opening in your motors.... OK! wind a stator your way with a small diameter winding so you have slot space for the probe then buy a small hall probe you can place at different levels of the slot and measure the currents or flux density at the different levels in the slot and the opening. . If you consistently measure more current in the bottom of the slot than at the opening then you are Hubertus my boi and should go get your $350,000.00 dollars from ABB for more research in the area and your award.. See how crazy it all sound Dr. Okon?. The modelers that have a small iota of knowledge about electronics can test your practice vs theory posts for 78 dollars. You don't want any more "dot dot dot" erasures. You can test it with a DC source... please Stop trippin...the 2nd layer is out there at the slot opening also with larger winding heads Its always been more loss in larger end turns what's the discovery Dr Okon? The 2nd layer should have been placed closer to the middle of the slot and the bifilar strands would work better stacked radially instead of axially. 😀

[Clugh]

Hi Borat,
Ever thought about glass beading or putting a diamond knurl pattern on the bell exterior for better heat dissipation since it is not ribbed like the HK's? Since you are at a lathe think about it for better cooling performance of the bell. I see DZ needs a 120V motor wound for the 120 volt 300 amp APD now. I guess motor agnostic inverters win...💔

[Clugh]

Hi Borat,

You been quiet on social media. I guess you are on the turkey...😀

I decided to get started on the new years debate. I haven't decided if I'm going to do a parallel outer WYE- inner DELTA Hybrid or the 180° firing arrangement Dual 3 phase (DTP) for two APD F3 200 inverters @ 70 grams. This configuration will deliver 35 kW at 12s lipo. This is the start. 9 turns of 13 AWG (1.828mm) diameter away from the fringes. From the DTP theories that I have seen you can optimize it if you can modify the transistor of/off firing arrangements but since we can make no significant modification to proprietary FW inverters it seemed that the next best thing would be to run it in the single layer configuration. The lower mutual inductance and separate phase sectors will optimize what we have at our hands. In the hybrid I would just try to get 2 or 3 turns of a bifilar 1.828mm or equivalent for the 6 open end wye coils that would feed the delta UVW.

[Clugh]

Its all about reducing the 2 pole harmonic and boosting the 5th with the 10 pole machine. This harmonic is what eats the PM and rotor Dr Okon. Do you see what the DTP at the 30° shifter winding sets does with it? It also reduces the number of parallel path to the inverter. That reduces crosstalk and ac losses. I know you don't believe the years of study on the subject matter unless you examine it for yourself, so I hope to see Powerditto more active in 2024 with posted verifiable, peer reviewed data because we will follow up posted fallacy with post containing diagnostic and empirical measure with the most discrete and accurate tools at an engineers disposal.

[Clugh]

I want you to see all the EE Phd. Solutions point to the same thing Dr Okon. I know you dont believe it but the EE's have confirmed it about 1000 different ways. Look here what happens to the 2 pole harmonic with the migration to 24 slots a shifted winding set of a wye and delta motor on the same stator serially connected. Its the same thing....

[Clugh]

You dont have to believe it or change but the writing is clearly on the wall what the goal is of all the high pole 12 and 24 slot topologies and configurations. I want you and the modelers that subscribe to German Social media to see what published and peer reviewed science from companies like ABB have to say about it. I know they cant Trump the amateur German hand winders on RC forums....but still look at it remove the two pole harmonic again.

🙈🙉🙊

[Clugh]

The same thing happens with the 24N22P with the shifted open ended asymmetric winding scheme with semi six phase 180 degree firings Borat.. If you cant see what going on in the industry you're idiotically stubborn to the better winding and inverter technology. You don't want to use the proven technology Tesla, Jaguar, Mercedes, etc.... use ok then do not use it baby! You certainly will be isolated from the degreed electrical engineers as you can see everybody and they Moma is on it but you. You read the stated issue with your motors and it becomes apparent that these things would really help your issues.. I know you are reading. I saw you here at 5:30 AM but I was not up yet...😀

[Clugh]

I know you cant accept theory it unless you examined it for yourself. Please examine it Dr Okon. Any test of any sorts toward it would be a start.

[Clugh]

Hi Dr Okon

See you are here . So here is 9 turns of 1.828mm tightened up some.. 👀So it looks like I could get about 4 turns of 1.828 mm in there off the fringes fairly easily so that would be 13 turns in 1.828mm in the conventional DL. In the hybrid I want the open ended wyes 2 strand to feed 2 strand delta UWW terminals. You can truly wind this with 3 wires. on each stator half. If you do it that way Dr Gerling uneven coil side becomes handy for neater terminations. In 1.828 mm at one level you could wind a 2 turn wye bifilar and then 5 turn delta. The equivalent fill is a 5+4 DL keep the wye to delta ratio between 1 to 2 or 1 -1.73. Since I'm already committed with the 9 turns I wont rewind it to set that ratio. I can probably only get 2 bifilar turn on the open ends in there so that's not ideal but we can get an idea of Kv a waveform bench test and idle current measure. What Id like to measure is the inductance of the wyes coils in a hybrid and compare the % to the delta inductions and see if there any correlation between the attenuated and boosted frequencies as a function of that percentage like a DC choke or AC load reactor. By itself 13 turns in 1.828mm doesn't make a horrible DL wye anyway. That would be a fairly worthy machine compared to other scrap iron from scorpions winding machine. You want a 5+4 5025 so wind an equivalent Kv hybrid in your 1.8 mm. Thats very doable and then you can expand your other winds on that. You don't have to do it but it is a worthy winding experiment in my view. Get a few clamp meters and pull your scope out. be serious about it if you really want to fly faster Being able to determine if you power factor (cos phi) is improved through a winding or things like slot wedges is very valuable to a serious minded builder. Have you also considered if you are willing to accept higher idles to lay 3 strands radially in a big wire single layer. You and Audio smith can see alot more copper can go into the single layer coil. The bobbin os only about half full. You need a taller rotor to clear the winding heads which could have a serpentine W.E.L.C. cooling channel in and out of the head each coil.

[Clugh]

How many more turns of 1.828 could this single layer truly hold PC?🙈🙉🙊 Are you interested in big wire hybrids & dual 3 phase for 2024 ??

Happy Holiday Turkey ......😀
The real 1BOHO

[Clugh]

Who knows PC maybe I can get 3 turns WYE in the bifilar on the open arms.🖤That would be a 12 turn parallel wye-delta hybrid in 13 AWG. (1.828mm) and then onto 180° DTP. Now that I have an idea of the fitment I can rearrange things to suit a 50 series with the optimal turns ratio on a longer stack... 👀

[Clugh]

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[Clugh]

Here are the two deltas terminated that can fire 180 in a DTP configuration or be paralleled into one inverter. The open end wye coils are basically inline between the inverter and the delta machines. Hope Darth Sidious and Anakin like it.

Happy Holidays...😀
Hubert