Official Freewing 90mm F-16 Falcon Thread

[Hugh Wiedman]

Well as usual you offer a lot of good info to digest! I will go through this more thoroughly tomorrow (I have my iX12 next to me here by my PC) and see what is what. I appreciate all the help! I imagine in the coming months I am going to smack my forehead and wonder what in the world took me so long to adapt Flight Modes! An easy test as well of course is to plug in a battery and do a ground test to see what - if anything - the control surfaces do when I activate the Flight Modes. Again, thanks Hugh!

I assume you have Aircraft Type Wing: 1 Ail 1 Flap. If my thoughts don't solve it from above, I suggest you first change the trim setup so just the elevator is on F mode and then go and see what the aileron servo travel does when you change flap settings. Of course, I highly recommend that you write down exactly the % numbers you put in the Flap System and Elevator compensation and also write down the exact trim or any subtrim on all surfaces so you can at least get it back to where your last flight was if need be. If the ailerons still move, remove F mode (change back to inhibit) and change trim setup back to everything normal, then see how the aileron servos travel as you change flaps.

You can always open a New Model, set it for flaperons, set flaps at basic numbers like 100%/0/-100% and elevator % to 0/-5/-10. Make sure all trim switches are zero'd out on the main flight screen, the go a set F Mode to switch D, trim setups for elevator/aileron /rudder to F mode, and see what the servo travels are with that.

[Aros]

Todd, first off, in the trim setup, BTW the DX12 is slightly different than my DX9, but lets give it a shot. I do have left and right trim and have to admit I'm not sure what that is, but have both set to Common and Norm. I recently upgrade to the DX9 from a DX6 which did not have that left and right trim, so I'm in the dark (as usual). BTW, just below that is Trims:Normal. There, if you want, you can change to crossed and the left trim switches will adjust aileron and elevator and the right switches will now adjust throttle and rudder. This would be nice to have so you can keep your fingers on the aileron/elevator stick and trim adjust either with the left hand. I'd do it, but I'm too used to it in the default way that I'm sure I'd forget I changed it when the going got tough. Should've do it early in my flying career.

Now to the main issue. Having the aileron change with the flaps is a complete mystery to me, it absolutely should not do that. I does look like you have it set up correctly though, there really isn't that much to it. And any trims you put in the Flap System are in addition to the trim switches and do not get "overwritten". That's why I said leave the adjustments there as a good starting point and then if you need to further refine the trims, you can do it in flight with the trim switches. I would remove the rudder from the trim setup and put it back to normal, not F mode. The rudder trim should not change with your flap settings, so no need to have it and up up doing 9 trims (3 each for each surface, 6 is plenty). As a matter of fact, if you ever do trim the rudder in flight, it should be the same with flaps, so if you leave it set as F mode, your rudder trim with flaps up will not carry over to the other 2 flap settings.

Go back to the main flight screen and make sure that your trim values are the same with the aileron with each flap position. If you originally trimmed the ailerons at say -6, then with flaps up it should still be at -6. However, with flap position 2 and 3, it will now show 0. Make them all the same, based on your original trims which should be shown in position 0. Now go back to the servo travel screen (in Servo Setup or Flap System-both should be the same data) and see if the ailerons are still different with each setting.

Likewise, for the elevator trim, you already trimmed that before and whatever value you have should be shown with flap position 1 (flaps up). Go to position 2 and 3 and make sure the trim value on the main flight screen is the same as you have in position 1. This should now be the same as when you flew it before making the change. As a test, Adjust the trim in flap position 2 & 3 (different numbers) and make sure those values aren't carried over to any other position. Then return the trim values to be the same as position 1, which is your starting position from previous flights.

I hope this is the problem, that somehow the trim settings for the ailerons with each flap position are now different after you set up F Mode and they should be the same. If that solves it, I would leave the aileron switches in F Mode. I do have to adjust occasionally the ailerons when deploying flaps from their fly around position.

Let me know, hope your not ready to shoot me , I got enough people after me!

Well as usual you offer a lot of good info to digest! I will go through this more thoroughly tomorrow (I have my iX12 next to me here by my PC) and see what is what. I appreciate all the help! I imagine in the coming months I am going to smack my forehead and wonder what in the world took me so long to adapt Flight Modes! An easy test as well of course is to plug in a battery and do a ground test to see what - if anything - the control surfaces do when I activate the Flight Modes. Again, thanks Hugh!

[Aros]

Yes, this is my first HSD and that size jet. I love it, the bigger they are the better they fly and easier to land. I actually use both HRB 5000mah 50C and the RT 5000 70C. Do not see much difference in thrust but that may just be me as I know the RT's can deliver more current.

Good to know, I have never used any batteries in the HSD F-16 other than RT 5500 70Cs...I will look forward to trying out other varieties. I apologize to others that have subscribed to this thread, I don't mean to hijack but I have to ask what your rates/expo/CG is? Even after having and flying two, I am always looking for more info for what others are doing for their setup. Feel free to PM me if you wish.

[Hugh Wiedman]

Alright Hugh Wiedman as usual nothing in my world is as easy as it should be, lol! I programmed flight modes for my F-16 this evening and as the video shows, I have some questions. Hope you can help! If not, maybe someone else can offer me a life rope (hopefully not to hang myself with).

Todd, first off, in the trim setup, BTW the DX12 is slightly different than my DX9, but lets give it a shot. I do have left and right trim and have to admit I'm not sure what that is, but have both set to Common and Norm. I recently upgrade to the DX9 from a DX6 which did not have that left and right trim, so I'm in the dark (as usual). BTW, just below that is Trims:Normal. There, if you want, you can change to crossed and the left trim switches will adjust aileron and elevator and the right switches will now adjust throttle and rudder. This would be nice to have so you can keep your fingers on the aileron/elevator stick and trim adjust either with the left hand. I'd do it, but I'm too used to it in the default way that I'm sure I'd forget I changed it when the going got tough. Should've do it early in my flying career.

Now to the main issue. Having the aileron change with the flaps is a complete mystery to me, it absolutely should not do that. I does look like you have it set up correctly though, there really isn't that much to it. And any trims you put in the Flap System are in addition to the trim switches and do not get "overwritten". That's why I said leave the adjustments there as a good starting point and then if you need to further refine the trims, you can do it in flight with the trim switches. I would remove the rudder from the trim setup and put it back to normal, not F mode. The rudder trim should not change with your flap settings, so no need to have it and up up doing 9 trims (3 each for each surface, 6 is plenty). As a matter of fact, if you ever do trim the rudder in flight, it should be the same with flaps, so if you leave it set as F mode, your rudder trim with flaps up will not carry over to the other 2 flap settings.

Go back to the main flight screen and make sure that your trim values are the same with the aileron with each flap position. If you originally trimmed the ailerons at say -6, then with flaps up it should still be at -6. However, with flap position 2 and 3, it will now show 0. Make them all the same, based on your original trims which should be shown in position 0. Now go back to the servo travel screen (in Servo Setup or Flap System-both should be the same data) and see if the ailerons are still different with each setting.

Likewise, for the elevator trim, you already trimmed that before and whatever value you have should be shown with flap position 1 (flaps up). Go to position 2 and 3 and make sure the trim value on the main flight screen is the same as you have in position 1. This should now be the same as when you flew it before making the change. As a test, Adjust the trim in flap position 2 & 3 (different numbers) and make sure those values aren't carried over to any other position. Then return the trim values to be the same as position 1, which is your starting position from previous flights.

I hope this is the problem, that somehow the trim settings for the ailerons with each flap position are now different after you set up F Mode and they should be the same. If that solves it, I would leave the aileron switches in F Mode. I do have to adjust occasionally the ailerons when deploying flaps from their fly around position.

Let me know, hope your not ready to shoot me , I got enough people after me!

[PaulZ]

PaulZ do you mean the Admiral 5000s? I am just about ready to pull the trigger on my third HSD F-16. The new EDF system with the vastly improved thrust/weight ratio has me sold. How do you like it? Is this your first?

Yes, this is my first HSD and that size jet. I love it, the bigger they are the better they fly and easier to land. I actually use both HRB 5000mah 50C and the RT 5000 70C. Do not see much difference in thrust but that may just be me as I know the RT's can deliver more current.

[Aros]

PaulZ do you mean the Admiral 5000s? I am just about ready to pull the trigger on my third HSD F-16. The new EDF system with the vastly improved thrust/weight ratio has me sold. How do you like it? Is this your first?

[PaulZ]

gooniac33 Are you talking about favoring the RT 6S 35C 5800's over the 6S 70C 5500's? Curious because I love my RT 70C 5500's but if you are telling me the 35C 5800's are superior, I need to know that and you certainly have my attention! Especially since I am considering buying my 3rd HSD 105mm F-16 which has only ever been flown on the 5500/70Cs...I am always looking to maximize thrust/weight in that jet and the new version has a superior EDF unit which is the main reason why I am considering it, but the batteries are part of that equation as well so if there is a more powerful performance pack out there I am all ears!

Aros, I just bought the HSD F-16 and I am flying it with 6s 5000. 3.5min flight times no problem. The new 105mm EDF unit is more efficient.

[Aros]

Alright Hugh Wiedman as usual nothing in my world is as easy as it should be, lol! I programmed flight modes for my F-16 this evening and as the video shows, I have some questions. Hope you can help! If not, maybe someone else can offer me a life rope (hopefully not to hang myself with).

[Aros]

Well since I already have settings for elev trim in my flap setup, won't that just translate over to the F Mode settings?

[Hugh Wiedman]

Ah yes, the enigma of LiPos. 13+ years in and I still don't get them. I stumbled across this video that, while you did a fine job explaining Flight Modes, I am really a visual learner so this made it super easy to understand F Modes for flaps...He even mentions specifically flaperons for jets...

WOW, great video, much better than wading through my tedious written description. He also uses rudder on his FM, which I used to do, but found that it was not necessary to trim the rudder regarding using flaps. Whatever rudder trim I used on flap up position worked with flaps anyway. As he also said, I would still recommend putting some adjustment into the Flap System settings for elevator as a starting point guess as per any manual or other pilots recommendations. If you don't, you may not have enough trim setting to get it right. See, easy peazy in 30 seconds.

[Aros]

Ah yes, the enigma of LiPos. 13+ years in and I still don't get them. I stumbled across this video that, while you did a fine job explaining Flight Modes, I am really a visual learner so this made it super easy to understand F Modes for flaps...He even mentions specifically flaperons for jets...

[Hugh Wiedman]

Wow the 6250s are lighter than the 5500s? Hmmmm, food for thought!

Makes some sense, as theoretically, a higher C battery should be heavier, all other things being equal. The RT 5500 45C is 25gr lighter than the 5500 70C. But at 35C, even though there is an additional 750 mah, the 6250 is still 22 gr lighter than the 5500 70C, and only 3 gr heavier than the 5500 45C. Unfortunately, the Admiral 6000 50C is just a heavy as the RT 5000 70C, but 24gr heavier than the RT 6250 35C but the Admiral also tests out with a lower actual C than the RT 35C. Go figure, LIPO's are an enigma to me.

[Aros]

Wow the 6250s are lighter than the 5500s? Hmmmm, food for thought!

[Hugh Wiedman]

Thanks Hugh that is awesome data. I am really bummed about those true C ratings. That's a total drag (see what I did there? lol). Based on your info I am going to stick with the tried and true RT 5500 "70"Cs...They've consistently shown to be reliable batteries up to the task. Now if I can just crap or get off the pot when it comes to ordering the new version HSD 105mm F-16 with my stimulus check!

OH, MAN, the 105mm F-16 would be epic! Another thought on your batteries. I need the extra thrust and the flaperons on take-off being on grass. You, on the other hand, take off of asphalt with flaperons, and the extra thrust is great, but not life threatening. Once off the deck and in flight, the RT 5500/RT 6250/Admiral 6000 all perform about the same, unless you're a throttle mashed to the firewall pylon racer or speed freak, which I'm sure your not. The RT 5500 weighs 825 gr / RT 6250 803 gr / Ad 6000 827 gr. In your environment, I would be tempted to try the 6250, slightly lighter in weight and should give you 20-30 seconds more flight time, in my opinion, worth a shot.

On my maiden no less, I used the Ad 6000 with no flaps and took off early in the morning with a lot of dew on the grass. What a bone head. She lumbered down the 400 foot grass runway and looked like Miss Budweiser throwing up a rooster tail. I was just able to shut her down before I ran into the tall cane of the Everglades. At that point I was ready to toss her to the gators, but waited for the grass to dry and it finally got off, even without flaps. Of course now, using the RT 70C and flaps, it's not much different than my other EDF's. I'm still tempted myself to try the RT 6250, as I'm sure it will get off with flaps and who wouldn't want an extra 20-30 seconds (at least for an emergency go-around, which are unfortunately not rare).

[Aros]

Thanks Hugh that is awesome data. I am really bummed about those true C ratings. That's a total drag (see what I did there? lol). Based on your info I am going to stick with the tried and true RT 5500 "70"Cs...They've consistently shown to be reliable batteries up to the task. Now if I can just crap or get off the pot when it comes to ordering the new version HSD 105mm F-16 with my stimulus check!

[Hugh Wiedman]

gooniac33 Are you talking about favoring the RT 6S 35C 5800's over the 6S 70C 5500's? Curious because I love my RT 70C 5500's but if you are telling me the 35C 5800's are superior, I need to know that and you certainly have my attention! Especially since I am considering buying my 3rd HSD 105mm F-16 which has only ever been flown on the 5500/70Cs...I am always looking to maximize thrust/weight in that jet and the new version has a superior EDF unit which is the main reason why I am considering it, but the batteries are part of that equation as well so if there is a more powerful performance pack out there I am all ears!

My thoughts only, but since you have the upgraded inrunner in your F-16, I would suggest you stick with the RT 5500 70C. Not sure about the RT 5800 35 C, but I have tested both the RT 5500 70C and the RT 6250 35C (and the Admiral 6000 50C) with the F-16 inrunner using my Progressive RC internal resistance meter and my GT Power meter. Fully charged (and both only 2 months old and stabilized) , the RT 5500 70 C draws 117.1 Ah and 2810 Watts, while the RT 6250 35C draws less at 113.65 Ah and 2594 Watts and there is a noticeable but slightly lower fan whine with the 35C. The Admiral is slightly less than the RT6250. I've also tested the inrunners on my SU-30 with similar results (but even more dramatic), so both of those only get the RT 5500 70C for dinner. Need to get them off of a grass field so I need all the power I can get, otherwise the in-flight is acceptable for all three batteries.

Interesting enough, on my 2 F-4's, both with stock outrunners and my Stinger 90 with a stock outrunner, the RT 5500 and the RT 6250 performed almost identically (in the air and on the meters), with the Admiral performing slightly less. My conclusion (and maybe I'm out in left field) is that the inrunners definitely benefit more from a higher C battery and can use them, while the outrunners get enough from a lower C battery and do not require the higher discharge rate as the inrunners do. Chris, with RC Geek seems to have found something similar as he has stated in his battery testing bulletin that he flies the stock F-4 outrunner on the RT 35C battery as anything higher than that is overkill on not of any benefit. This may only apply to EDF's as just for the hell of it, I tested them on my Corsair's outrunner. There was a significant increase in power with the 70C over the 35 or 50 C. But I don't need or use high speed on the Corsair, usually around 50-65% throttle, occasionally 80%. Don't need it on take-off either, as I actually have to try and keep it on the ground longer than it wants to in order to keep it above stalling speed on take-off, so the Admiral 5000 50C is enough and still gives me almost 7-8 minutes.

You don't want to know what the actual tested C was from the internal resistance meter. OK, I'll talk, stop twisting my arm! The RT 70 C came in at an Actual C of around 35. The RT 35 C came in at an actual C of around 28 C and the Admiral 50C at 25 C. I've heard, but don't have any to test, that the graphene high C batteries are just as good or better than the RT 70C. I did get to test a buddies Spektrum Smart battery, 5000 50C (although not hooked up with the Power meter) and the Actual C tested in the 25-28 range, but have yet to try them in action.

[Aros]

My Faves were the 6s 35c 5800 packs which made all of my EDFs jump to life! I was lucky enough to get them on sale for $69 a piece and am glad I did! I used them for almost 2 years in my jets! They are still in use today with a big carbon Z t-28 and they work amazing on the low draw. No puffing at all either!

gooniac33 Are you talking about favoring the RT 6S 35C 5800's over the 6S 70C 5500's? Curious because I love my RT 70C 5500's but if you are telling me the 35C 5800's are superior, I need to know that and you certainly have my attention! Especially since I am considering buying my 3rd HSD 105mm F-16 which has only ever been flown on the 5500/70Cs...I am always looking to maximize thrust/weight in that jet and the new version has a superior EDF unit which is the main reason why I am considering it, but the batteries are part of that equation as well so if there is a more powerful performance pack out there I am all ears!

[Aros]

Alright Hugh thank you I will give her a go. Easy Peazy is a very relative term for me btw.

[Hugh Wiedman]

Now being able to adjust trim with Flight Modes in the various flap stages in flight gets my attention! I will take a stab at it and hopefully not stab my plane in the process!

First set it up in the transmitter as I described. Then go back to the main screen. Look at the trim settings with flaps up for aileron and elevator (write them down). Now change the flap switch to Take Off flaps. If you have voice alerts, when you move the flap switch it should announce Flight Mode 2 (voice command can be enabled in the Spoken Flight Mode menu just after F-Mode Setup, if you want). Now check the trims (can't remember if they go back to 0, if they do, put the trim you had in the up position as a starting point). When you adjust the trim now, it will only adjust it on that flap position, all other flap positions remain as before. Check Landing flaps, should say flight mode 3 and check those trims as with FM2. I set voice commands for the flap switch to say first the Flight Mode, then Flaps Up or Take-off flaps or Landing flaps. Easy Peazy.

[gooniac33]

Unfortunately, the 5500 is out of stock with Jetwerx and with Roaring Top themselves. Got the last 8. 3 arrived earlier this week (which I got to use in the F-16 and SU-30) and hopefully another 5 are coming tomorrow. Also tried to get some of the 6250's that Chris (RC GEEK) uses exclusively in all his FW jets, but snagged the last 1 only. I'll test the output tomorrow (assuming it arrives with the others). With potential shipments from China being stopped, I wonder if we'll see any more for a while, assuming that goes through.

The 6250s worked really well in my planes! Just be sure to break them in or they may now be all that impressive at first. My Faves were the 6s 35c 5800 packs which made all of my EDFs jump to life! I was lucky enough to get them on sale for $69 a piece and am glad I did! I used them for almost 2 years in my jets! They are still in use today with a big carbon Z t-28 and they work amazing on the low draw. No puffing at all either! Best bang for the buck out there right now with really good performance is still gonna be HRB 6s 50c 6000mah packs. I have 4 and they are working really well! Super cheap in price too!


I am really tempted to get a thunderbird PNP.... I have been really impressed with the new 1650kv outrunner and may have to try it out for myself. I have flown the original older 1450kv equipped F-16 and really liked how it flew! I know that the newer set ups will be even better! I am working on some set ups of my own so could just remove the PNP set up and install my own afterwards..... HMMMMMMMMMM