Freewing Mirage 2000C V2 “Tiger Meet” 80mm EDF - Official Thread

[Olivier_]

Whoever knew that the Mirage, which modelers have been flying for years with no significant issues, is in fact such a defective design and that Freewing's designers are so incompetent.

Thanks, Olivier, for pointing this out to us.

Thank you but you are going a bit too hard on Freewing. No, the quality is there overall but they can still improve on certain points like those I indicated : fixing the ESC and access to the ESC for dismantling or replacement.

[nrthwing]

I think Olivier makes a great point. Being in the hobby for over 35 years, I came from building via wood kits. Constructing back then, one inspected every joint, screw and did whatever necessary to ensure there were no unexpected failures. Then came early ARFs, and all of them were poorly constructed. Careful examination, regluing, and reinforcement was a must!
For me this still carries over to my PNP planes today.

Could Freewing pay more attention to details? Yes - Absolutely!
Unfortunately everything revolves around price.
By the time Freewing builds it, ships it and Motion gets their cut, the original plane was built super quickly and with underpaid foreign labor making it a marketable item for us consumers.

For myself, I mentally had to find the balance between expectations and reality in regards to quality.
I’ve owned all major brands and everyone had their flaws and shortcomings.
I’m somewhat OCD and go over each plane with a fine tooth comb. Unfortunately I now fully expect I’ll have to “tinker” with it long before I’ve added to the shopping cart.

My 2cents
Mike

[Evan D]

Excellent post Mike. Excellent. My objection was the flat statement that the plane was poorly designed for those two specific reasons he called out and I do strongly disagree. Overall, the plane, not just this one nor even FreeWing specific are designed to a price. There is a reason. To me a good reason. These planes have some areas that commonly need attention, glue on the retract mounts is one that comes quickly to mind. Another on some of these is not having a screw through control horns, just glued into the surface (Avanti and F-104 have had reported crashes from this). Many replace all the servos when they assemble these planes. Many pull or bypass mixing boards, MCBes, or blue boxes. Then there are things that for a few cents more could be improved, ball links instead of clevis.

But he specifically called out two areas and he hasn't built or flown it. Calling out access to the ESC because the grill is glued down is nowhere near an engineering deficiency to me as you can put a screw driver through the slats. As you said if it bothers you then mod it but to me there's almost never a reason for me to need to remove that grill. Then. the screws. Could it be better? Yes but their simple way works amazingly well. If he had simply asked if anyone changed how the ESC was mounted and not started with FreeWings design is bad, I would have agreed and offered to maybe use a long thin zip tie instead. But again the screws work and as I noted I put a dab of white tube glue on them if I'm in there. I also put tape over the ESC to motor bullet connectors.

And things do improve. The Mirage has been out for almost 10 years and FreeWing seldom changes things like he's noted without issuing a V2 like the Avanti V2. And note on it and the Cougar the ESC screws now go into a plastic mount not plywood.

I find it interesting on here when people complain things like the pushrods aren't always adjusted to the exact right length out of the box on PNP or RTF planes. Or when two opposing servos (aileron, flaps, elevator) don't have exactly the same arm angle and then don't have exactly the same throw. There will always be things but are they design flaws? And don't get me talking about some other brands where you don't get all or proper sized hardware, the servos really are questionable, and commonly have dead retracts or other electronics.

So, as I admitted it bugs me. and no, it's not just on FreeWing planes as I've been accused of working for.

[Olivier_]

Excellent post Mike. Excellent. My objection was the flat statement that the plane was poorly designed for those two specific reasons he called out and I do strongly disagree. Overall, the plane, not just this one nor even FreeWing specific are designed to a price. There is a reason. To me a good reason. These planes have some areas that commonly need attention, glue on the retract mounts is one that comes quickly to mind. Another on some of these is not having a screw through control horns, just glued into the surface (Avanti and F-104 have had reported crashes from this). Many replace all the servos when they assemble these planes. Many pull or bypass mixing boards, MCBes, or blue boxes. Then there are things that for a few cents more could be improved, ball links instead of clevis.

But he specifically called out two areas and he hasn't built or flown it. Calling out access to the ESC because the grill is glued down is nowhere near an engineering deficiency to me as you can put a screw driver through the slats. As you said if it bothers you then mod it but to me there's almost never a reason for me to need to remove that grill. Then. the screws. Could it be better? Yes but their simple way works amazingly well. If he had simply asked if anyone changed how the ESC was mounted and not started with FreeWings design is bad, I would have agreed and offered to maybe use a long thin zip tie instead. But again the screws work and as I noted I put a dab of white tube glue on them if I'm in there. I also put tape over the ESC to motor bullet connectors.

And things do improve. The Mirage has been out for almost 10 years and FreeWing seldom changes things like he's noted without issuing a V2 like the Avanti V2. And note on it and the Cougar the ESC screws now go into a plastic mount not plywood.

I find it interesting on here when people complain things like the pushrods aren't always adjusted to the exact right length out of the box on PNP or RTF planes. Or when two opposing servos (aileron, flaps, elevator) don't have exactly the same arm angle and then don't have exactly the same throw. There will always be things but are they design flaws? And don't get me talking about some other brands where you don't get all or proper sized hardware, the servos really are questionable, and commonly have dead retracts or other electronics.

So, as I admitted it bugs me. and no, it's not just on FreeWing planes as I've been accused of working for.

This is a forum where everyone can give their point of view.
What right do you have to distribute good or bad points to those who talk about "valid subjects" or "invalid subjects" on the Mirage ?
Your seniority on this plane or whatever, does not give you any more right to define the subjects to be discussed or not discussed here.
This forum is free for everyone, including you, to say that you disagree with me. No problem.

Even if you don't like it, I maintain that this is a lack of design rigor on the part of Freewing for the reasons that I have already developed and in particular for the immovable grid which is absolutely not the welcome to not only unscrew the ESC but, even worse, to install the new ESC and adjust it in its slot.
We can actually modify these inadequacies each on our own without ever talking about them on a forum. Free to everyone, but this forum here is the place where we can share these design weaknesses.

On this subject, I am in the process of overcoming these weak points of the plane. I will share my solutions soon so that everyone can be inspired by them or not.

[Evan D]

I agree with you! We both have the right to state our positions and why we feel that way.

I think I was the first helping you when you had questions too.

I’m eager to see what mods you make in countering these design flaws. What ESC are you going to?

[Olivier_]

I agree with you! We both have the right to state our positions and why we feel that way.

I think I was the first helping you when you had questions too.

I’m eager to see what mods you make in countering these design flaws. What ESC are you going to?

Absolutely, thank you for your help.

I will test with Spektrum Avian 120 AMP 6-12S dual socket for 2 lipos - SPMXAE1120HV.

https://www.horizonhobby.fr/fr_FR/product/avian-120-amp-brushless-smart-esc-6s---12s/SPMXAE1120HV.html

I haven't received it yet.

Positive points compared to the original Freewing ESC:

• ESC temperature sensor
• transmission temperature and voltage of each cell of lipo 1
• transmission temperature and voltage of each cell of lipo 2
• (for controlling a possible discharge imbalance between the 2 lipos)

negative points :

• 100g more

I want to test the discharge balance : see if the avian ESC manages the discharge balance between 2 lipos connected to the ESC : For example with 2 lipos identical in all respects except in age and number of cycles.

Please feel free to give me your opinion on these points.

I also find the position of the ESC in the upper part of the fuselage not very happy, rather than in the lower part: the CG is therefore higher in my opinion, after that it may be insignificant for 120g but less for 220g, the weight of the Spektrum ESC.
What do you think ?

[Evan D]

Interesting ESC. It looks large but I'm not sure it is especially without the fan. I don't think it will negatively effect balance. For me it's way over the price I would pay for a ESC but I don't use many features it has.

[Olivier_]

Interesting ESC. It looks large but I'm not sure it is especially without the fan. I don't think it will negatively effect balance. For me it's way over the price I would pay for a ESC but I don't use many features it has.

Which mirage version do you have ?
which esc and battery do you use ?

[Evan D]

I've had more than one, I think five all together, I had three flying at the same time once. All mine have been/ are the original V1 but I have had multiple EDF units and multiple ESCs and flown on many different batteries including a very hot Jet Fan/ Het 8S set up and the most current FreeWIng 2150 EDF and the most current 100A reversing ESC. One reason why I do think my seniority with this particular aircraft could be of use to others.

Currently I have a simple Hobby King 100A ESC in mine and use a Power Hobby 5000mAh 100C 6S LiPo (mine weigh 545-565g each) to answer your question. You didn't ask what EDF. An older outrunner 12b 1850kV. I did try the new 2150, as I said, but felt the old 1850kV gave me the best all around performance and has been clocked at 144mph last time I took it out. A new V2 Mirage with the new 2150 was clocked at 136 that day.

[Olivier_]

I've had more than one, I think five all together, I had three flying at the same time once. All mine have been/ are the original V1 but I have had multiple EDF units and multiple ESCs and flown on many different batteries including a very hot Jet Fan/ Het 8S set up and the most current FreeWIng 2150 EDF and the most current 100A reversing ESC. One reason why I do think my seniority with this particular aircraft could be of use to others.

Currently I have a simple Hobby King 100A ESC in mine and use a Power Hobby 5000mAh 100C 6S LiPo (mine weigh 545-565g each) to answer your question. You didn't ask what EDF. An older outrunner 12b 1850kV. I did try the new 2150, as I said, but felt the old 1850kV gave me the best all around performance and has been clocked at 144mph last time I took it out. A new V2 Mirage with the new 2150 was clocked at 136 that day.

• Why 5 planes knowing that you can only fly one at a time? Maybe to have several different ESC/EDF/Lipos configurations without having to take everything apart? Or because you crashed several planes ?
• Have you used 2x3S lipos ?
• Is the ESC reverse effective in slowing down the plane or is it a gadget ?
• If you say 1850 is faster than 2150, why did Freewing upgrade to 2150 ?

[Evan D]

Are you using a translator?

I did not say I had 5 at once. I did have three and they were all set up differently, one low power stock outrunner, one high power outrunner and one 8S. Of the 5 I did crash one when I lost radio signal.

No, I have either used 6S packs or 8S when I had the one flying 8S.

The reverse is very effective in some and not very in others. It was mediocre in the Mirage. I really like it in many of my planes so I do not consider it a gadget any more than, say telemetry.

Different fans are going to be more or less efficient in different airframes. Also, some provide good acceleration but not good top end speed. And please remember that many time a motor marked with a specific kV doesn't actually have that kV and there are differences in the fan design. The older 12b metal hub fans were horrible performing, the older one piece plastic 12b fans were okay and the newer one piece plastic 12b fans are great. The 2150 is a great upgrade in my two Gripens (I currently have 3 Gripens) and Avanti.

[Olivier_]

Are you using a translator?

I did not say I had 5 at once. I did have three and they were all set up differently, one low power stock outrunner, one high power outrunner and one 8S. Of the 5 I did crash one when I lost radio signal.

No, I have either used 6S packs or 8S when I had the one flying 8S.

The reverse is very effective in some and not very in others. It was mediocre in the Mirage. I really like it in many of my planes so I do not consider it a gadget any more than, say telemetry.

Different fans are going to be more or less efficient in different airframes. Also, some provide good acceleration but not good top end speed. And please remember that many time a motor marked with a specific kV doesn't actually have that kV and there are differences in the fan design. The older 12b metal hub fans were horrible performing, the older one piece plastic 12b fans were okay and the newer one piece plastic 12b fans are great. The 2150 is a great upgrade in my two Gripens (I currently have 3 Gripens) and Avanti.

Yes I use a translator.
Which model of 8S lipo to fit in the compartment of the Mirage ?
What do you think of Eurofighter 8S ?

[Evan D]

I used Zippy Compact 4000 8S. They haven’t sold them in years. https://hobbyking.com/en_us/zippy-co...lipo-pack.html

I have the 6S EF and like it a lot.

[Olivier_]

For the Mirage Tiger V2: Do you confirm :

• the values in the attached photo ?
• the center of gravity 520-530 mm from the rear of the plane ?

[SanExup]

Olivier_ Have you watched ArthurRc on YouTube? In French and he does a good series of reviews on the Mirage with his preferred setup etc. His CG and setup work well. The videos are worth watching.

[kallend]

• Why 5 planes knowing that you can only fly one at a time?

Why not. They aren't rationed.

I have three Eurofighters, three Hawker Hunters, two Lancasters, two F-104s, two F-35s, two Convergences, two Twin Otters, two Cubs and three Spitfires. And about 30 other planes and helis, yet I can still only fly one at a time.

[Olivier_]

Olivier_ Have you watched ArthurRc on YouTube? In French and he does a good series of reviews on the Mirage with his preferred setup etc. His CG and setup work well. The videos are worth watching.

Thanks I'll go look 😉

[SanExup]

Olivier_ Actually, he has flight vids of quite a few planes and includes his preferred setup. I've used his CG and setup on a few planes and have been happy with them. There's a lot of personal preference with rates and expo etc. But I trust his information as a great starting point, usually better than the manuals suggested rates and CG. And I enjoy his insight.

[Evan D]

Ordered #6 today. Considering that when these first came out almost 10 years ago the were $299 and are now only $30 more and now have digital metal gear servos, the new 2150 fan and the reversing ESC it's too good of a deal to pass up. 😉

[Olivier_]

Ordered #6 today. Considering that when these first came out almost 10 years ago the were $299 and are now only $30 more and now have digital metal gear servos, the new 2150 fan and the reversing ESC it's too good of a deal to pass up. 😉

ordered what? another Mirage?