New FMS/Eflite Su-30 coming soon

[xviper]

All good! I was more than 3/4 's kidding and would not expect someone to poison a personal well. :-) I just purchased the New Eflite P-51..... SO that pushes this out a tad... but LOVE the FMS Livery!

thanks again Xviper!

If not for having a 6s modified FMS P-51 already, I would have seriously considered getting the Eflite one also. I also ordered the Eflite SU-30 from my LHS. I would have liked the FMS version SU-27, but being a bit cautious about such methods of buying things, I needed more than just a few testimonials for this "seller". (It's kinda like, "Pssssst, I know a guy who knows a guy whose brother-in-law knows a guy ................... ") However, now that this product is available via AliExpress, it's not so "cloak and dagger" anymore. But I've blown my wad on 3 planes already this month, so this one's out. Just like I don't need 3 Mustangs, I don't need 3 SU's either.

[Hugh Wiedman]

If not for having a 6s modified FMS P-51 already, I would have seriously considered getting the Eflite one also. I also ordered the Eflite SU-30 from my LHS. I would have liked the FMS version SU-27, but being a bit cautious about such methods of buying things, I needed more than just a few testimonials for this "seller". (It's kinda like, "Pssssst, I know a guy who knows a guy whose brother-in-law knows a guy ................... ") However, now that this product is available via AliExpress, it's not so "cloak and dagger" anymore. But I've blown my wad on 3 planes already this month, so this one's out. Just like I don't need 3 Mustangs, I don't need 3 SU's either.

Need? I don't think I have that in my vocabulary, can you please translate? The only verbs in my vocabulary are Want, Gotta' Have Immediately and Can't Figure Out Why I'm so Broke.

[xviper]

Need? I don't think I have that in my vocabulary, can you please translate? The only verbs in my vocabulary are Want, Gotta' Have Immediately and Can't Figure Out Why I'm so Broke.

That's the money talking. (More like when it runs low.)

[PaulZ]

OK, so I have this plane now dialed-in, it flies and most importantly lands much slower now. Here is my configuration:

1) I reprogrammed the AR636 receiver so it now has flaperons. Since its only six channels I lost the air brake but the trade-off is worth it - you can make slower landing approaches as the flaperons increased lift.
2) I fly with my 6s 5000 all the way to the back - see picture
3) The elevator is actually 4mm in the opposite direction (down elevator) from factory recommended. See the picture, the black mark is factory recommended location.

This is a great plane for scale SU-30 flying! I now have over 20 flights on it.

[Hugh Wiedman]

OK, so I have this plane now dialed-in, it flies and most importantly lands much slower now. Here is my configuration:

1) I reprogrammed the AR636 receiver so it now has flaperons. Since its only six channels I lost the air brake but the trade-off is worth it - you can make slower landing approaches as the flaperons increased lift.
2) I fly with my 6s 5000 all the way to the back - see picture
3) The elevator is actually 4mm in the opposite direction (down elevator) from factory recommended. See the picture, the black mark is factory recommended location.

This is a great plane for scale SU-30 flying! I now have over 20 flights on it.

Nice work PaulZ. I'm planning on picking one of these up myself, the only thing that was holding me back was a HH demo pilot I met at one of our events (who has over 100 flights with it) told me he didn't think it would take off well on grass and I debated whether to get it while reprogramming the receiver and losing the air brake, which I think is a cool feature. Don't you know it, about 2 weeks ago a kid (why do all these kids fly like they have 30 years of experience) brought a new SU-30 to the field and NO problem taking off of grass without flaps, in less than 100 feet. What do these HH demo pilots know, just ask a 16 year old.

So now I'm thinking, don't need take-off flaps and can still have the air brake, but what if you have landing flaps and the air brake? You could leave the AR636 programmed now with flaperons using your normal 3 position flap switch. Take another y-connector and hook up the air brake to the flap channel. You will need to change the delay to 0 (I think for the air brake the manual says take out the delay), and 0 position is flaps up, air brake closed (for taking off and flying around), position 1 is 1/2 flaps with the air brake 1/2 open and position 2 is full flaps with the air brake fully opened. Since you don't use take-off flaps, take off without them and the air brake closed. Then when landing, you have 2 potential modes, 1/2 flaps and 1/2 air brake in windy conditions, or full flaps and full air brake in no wind situations. You will probably have to set flap travel to 100/0/-100 to get this to work with the air brake and this may mess up your flap/aileron travel to get the flap travel you desire, but maybe not. Just a thought, as I might try that when I get mine. Or does this sound completely ludicrous and I'm completely out of my mind?

BTW, is the AR636 programmed with the 3 rates for the flight modes on the AUX1 channel, which is normal, which then would make it subject to the flap switch? I assume FM1 is basic rates in the 25-30% range and FM2 & FM3 somewhere in the 50-70% range. Believe it or not, I have all my jets gyro rates (only slight modifications on each) on the AR636 set at 25-30-35% FM1 (R-P-Y) and for take-off and landing modes, FM2&3 way up to 70-75-80% for take-off and landing with no oscillation, even in the F4 & F16.

[xviper]

You could leave the AR636 programmed now with flaperons using your normal 3 position flap switch. Take another y-connector and hook up the air brake to the flap channel.

I may be off base here, but ............................... If the AR636 is programmed with flaperons, the stabilizer is still functioning on the ailerons. So, if you “Y” the airbrake to ch.6, then the airbrake acts in consort with that aileron/flap and is affected by the Ail stick and the gyro. Even though you may have flaps deployed, when you use the aileron stick, the airbrake will go up and down accordingly and will also move as the gyro does its work. When the airbrake is down (flush with the fuse), it is possible that when you operate the AIL, the brake will try of drive itself into the fuse. This “could” overdrive that servo and create problems.
Another thought .................. It is possible to have an operational airbrake with your scenario IF you use a higher channel, in which case, you could bind a second RX and use ch. 7 or 8 for the airbrake. You CANNOT have anything plugged into the first 6 channels of the second RX. Of course, this means that you must have a TX with more than 6 channels and second RX with more than 6 channels. Yes, you can bind 2 RXs in the same plane. I’ve done it. You simply cannot use the same channels on both RXs.

[Hugh Wiedman]

I may be off base here, but ............................... If the AR636 is programmed with flaperons, the stabilizer is still functioning on the ailerons. So, if you “Y” the airbrake to ch.6, then the airbrake acts in consort with that aileron/flap and is affected by the Ail stick and the gyro. Even though you may have flaps deployed, when you use the aileron stick, the airbrake will go up and down accordingly and will also move as the gyro does its work. When the airbrake is down (flush with the fuse), it is possible that when you operate the AIL, the brake will try of drive itself into the fuse. This “could” overdrive that servo and create problems.
Another thought .................. It is possible to have an operational airbrake with your scenario IF you use a higher channel, in which case, you could bind a second RX and use ch. 7 or 8 for the airbrake. You CANNOT have anything plugged into the first 6 channels of the second RX. Of course, this means that you must have a TX with more than 6 channels and second RX with more than 6 channels. Yes, you can bind 2 RXs in the same plane. I’ve done it. You simply cannot use the same channels on both RXs.

xviper, you may just be correct, I've learned that more often than not, you're spot on and I take your advice as gospel. I would suggest that he tries it anyway and sees what happens. Theoretically, the signal from channel 6 (also going to the airbrake) should only operate from the flap switch, thus moving the aileron surface to a preset position (and the airbrake as well, which will only get a signal from channel 6, and no additional signal from channel 2, the ail channel). Once there, as the Ail stick moves, the aileron/flap moves further and there is no more "signal" from channel 6 that would affect the air brake (in my crazy theory world, so that's a guess). The aileron servos (when programmed for flaperons) on the other hand are getting signals from both channel 2 and channel 6 causing their movement. The AS3X stabilizer is sending signals via channel 2 to the ailerons (as well as CH3 to the elevator & CH 4-rudder) and nothing through channel 6 (or 5, the gear channel -although your nose gear will flutter in steering as that steering signal comes from CH 4) And he definitely needs to program the amount of deflection of the flap in the first place, which is critical so as not to overdrive the servo when using the AIL stick, but that is the case regardless of hooking up the airbrake. That's always the main issue when using flaperons vs dedicated flaps as "full flaps" with flaperons results in the surface now "zeroing" at another position.

(As I read that back through, even I say to myself, what the hell did he just say-but can't figure out how to say it so it makes sense)

The other solution is another receiver, or if money is no object and you have a higher channel transmitter than 6, get the AR9350 9 channel ASX receiver. Unfortunately for me, I'm still using my original 6 channel transmitter and not financially ready to upgrade (yes, I'm a cheap skate- shoulda done it long ago). So I'm hoping PaulZ can solve this 6 channel/flap/air brake issue for me when I get my bird-(so yes-I'm using him as a guinea pig for my upcoming issue , but don't tell him that)

Don't forget that flap deflection in the 40 degree or less range causes wing lift, however, once the flaps are deflected more than say 40-45 degrees, there is absolutely no wing lift provided, only drag, which is why you can't take-off using maximum flap deflection-like driving a Winnebago. Usually when using flaperons, you can't program large amounts of deflection to get to that point because of the likelihood of over-driving the servos. So what I'm thinking is this could be the best of both worlds for landing: some flap deflection which is still causing lift a slower speeds, and an airbrake which is causing drag and slowing the jet down!

[Hugh Wiedman]

I think my only problem with this "jury rigged" solution to use both flaps and the air brake is that it will be difficult to get enough servo movement on the airbrake to have it accomplish anything. Since you are using flaperons, and therefore don't want to use too much flap deflection to prevent over-driving the aileron/flap servos, the flap signal from channel 6 won't drive that air brake servo enough. May have to extend the airbrake servo arm to give it more travel or re-position the point where the air-brake control horn is to give it more.

Ever since this bird came out and the fact that I only have a 6 channel receiver/transmitter, I've been wracking my brain to figure out how to use both flaps and the airbrake, but I thought I needed the flaps for taking off of grass. Now that I know it doesn't need take-off flaps for grass, the solution of flaps and air brake for landing is a viable option. Just have to make sure you don't try to take off with both deployed, or you're back to the flying Winnebago scenario.

[PaulZ]

Gentlemen,

I have an idea I will be trying out and will report back. The real SU-30 lands with full flaperons down and the airbrake fully deployed. I will try to replicate this as follows:

1) I noticed that the airbrake is not driven by a servo but instead by a modified retract that has a worm gear in it - great job E-Flite!. As we know "most" retracts only respond to full 100% channel signals and not anything in between. So...
2) I'll try first to just hook it up to one of the flap channels and it should ignore all the "wiggling" until I deploy full flaps which are at 100%
3) If that does not work I'll connect a landing gear sequencer between the air brake retract and the flap channel. These tend to ignore all signals untill they have 100% for a few seconds.

The result should be an airbrake that deploys when I have flaperons fully deployed but not when I have them at half flaps for takeoff. We will see but it think this should work without the need for swapping out for a receiver with more channels. Let's see...

[Hugh Wiedman]

PaulZ, didn't know it was a worm gear. With that said, I believe you are correct, the air brake may only be either fully closed or opened like a retract, just assumed they used a regular servo that you could set the amount desired. You shouldn't have to worry about any interference from the AS3X stabilization. I'm waiting with "baited breath" on your idea. You may just have found a way to use not only take-off flaps, but landing flaps with an airbrake. Carry on Airman, that will be all. Bravo Zulu.

[xviper]

The other solution is another receiver, or if money is no object and you have a higher channel transmitter than 6, get the AR9350 9 channel ASX receiver.

I think this would be the ideal solution. I should have also mentioned (which I previously overlooked), is that once the airbrake is put on a higher channel (no "Y"), being independent of any other control surface, it is never affected by the gyro or by what the flaperons are doing (either as AIL or flap). This would be the same as using a second RX, where the airbrake can have it's own channel and switch.
Addendum: If it is indeed a worn gear on the brake, some of my points won't be applicable as it will be either on or not, like a retract. But then, if "Y'd" to an aileron, it may not deploy unless it sees a signal that represents full deployment. With flaperons, you rarely want full flaps as the servos can be overdriven if you use AIL at full travel.

[Evan D]

Another choice is to have two receivers. Have the primary surfaces on the 636 and move other functions to a secondary receiver using channels 7, 8, 9 etc. It's easy to bind two receivers to the same model in the TX. I've done this a number of times and a good example is a T-28 that I have pan and tilt FPV in and separated the steering from rudder, I use a 9ch Orange for those functions and a 636 for the primary.

[mshagg]

Another choice is to have two receivers. Have the primary surfaces on the 636 and move other functions to a secondary receiver using channels 7, 8, 9 etc. It's easy to bind two receivers to the same model in the TX. I've done this a number of times and a good example is a T-28 that I have pan and tilt FPV in and separated the steering from rudder, I use a 9ch Orange for those functions and a 636 for the primary.

I've successfully done this with a channel-hungry model with lots of mod-cons. The 636 controls primary flight surfaces and runs off a seperate BEC. An inexpensive admiral 10ch provides 4 channels of headroom above the 636's 6 outputs for retracts, airbrakes etc. and is powered by the ESC's built in BEC. Just make sure there's no common power rail in a wing connector or junction box to keep the power sources isolated.

[Hugh Wiedman]

I've successfully done this with a channel-hungry model with lots of mod-cons. The 636 controls primary flight surfaces and runs off a seperate BEC. An inexpensive admiral 10ch provides 4 channels of headroom above the 636's 6 outputs for retracts, airbrakes etc. and is powered by the ESC's built in BEC. Just make sure there's no common power rail in a wing connector or junction box to keep the power sources isolated.

Not sure what you mean by it being powered by the ESC's built in BEC. Isn't that built in BEC already powering the installed 636, or do you jump a cable and power both receivers with the ESC's built in BEC. Would have thought each receiver would need it's own independent power source, but you guys have moved way past my rudimentary knowledge of this subject.

Hey PaulZ, you've really started a tornado of activity with one post, congratulations. I'm holding out for you to solve it with the 6 channel option so whatever you come up with that works that should work for me too!

I'm now curious as to how HH programmed the 3 flight modes for the AS3X gains. Is it tied to the AUX1 which is the airbrake (or flap) channel? If so, did they actually program 3 different rate gain modes, or just 2 (or even just 1). HH has a tendency to program moderate rate gains on FM1 when using AUX1 (tied to Flaps) as the flight mode, then for FM2 & 3, some pretty aggressive rate gains as this is when flaps are deployed for take-off or landing. The other option is to tie the FM to the gear channel, so with gear up (theoretically normal fly around) it gives moderate gains and gear down (taking off and landing) the gains are much higher. This of course would only give 2 flight modes, but that's all you need anyway for this as I don't suppose you're doing any wild 3D stuff and use different rates for different maneuvers.

[Evan D]

I use the same power for both receivers...

I've successfully done this with a channel-hungry model with lots of mod-cons. The 636 controls primary flight surfaces and runs off a seperate BEC. An inexpensive admiral 10ch provides 4 channels of headroom above the 636's 6 outputs for retracts, airbrakes etc. and is powered by the ESC's built in BEC. Just make sure there's no common power rail in a wing connector or junction box to keep the power sources isolated.

[mshagg]

I use the same power for both receivers...

It's a hobbyking plane, so figured I'd at least try and give the flight controls a chance lol.

[Evan D]

I said that because the way I read your post you thought a separate isolated power was needed for each receiver and it isn't. If you use two ESCs or BECs then you must separate them since the switching style BECs can fight each other.

It's a hobbyking plane, so figured I'd at least try and give the flight controls a chance lol.

[John Bergsmith]

I'm now curious as to how HH programmed the 3 flight modes for the AS3X gains. Is it tied to the AUX1 which is the airbrake (or flap) channel? If so, did they actually program 3 different rate gain modes, or just 2 (or even just 1). HH has a tendency to program moderate rate gains on FM1 when using AUX1 (tied to Flaps) as the flight mode, then for FM2 & 3, some pretty aggressive rate gains as this is when flaps are deployed for take-off or landing. The other option is to tie the FM to the gear channel, so with gear up (theoretically normal fly around) it gives moderate gains and gear down (taking off and landing) the gains are much higher. This of course would only give 2 flight modes, but that's all you need anyway for this as I don't suppose you're doing any wild 3D stuff and use different rates for different maneuvers.

Hi Hugh,

As a routine, I go in and download 1.43 in the AR636A receivers and do the programming myself. I've found they do some strange stuff like limit throws, I find it easier to start fresh. I set my switch on Aux 2 assigned to switch E on the iX12. I set up the first position with no gyro settings, always nice to be able to shut them off if needed. The second and third positions you can set up how you like, I normally increase the gains on the third position to determine which position feels better.The priority setting is where in my opinion the AS3X really shines in my opinion.

[PaulZ]

Gentlemen,

I have an idea I will be trying out and will report back. The real SU-30 lands with full flaperons down and the airbrake fully deployed. I will try to replicate this as follows:

1) I noticed that the airbrake is not driven by a servo but instead by a modified retract that has a worm gear in it - great job E-Flite!. As we know "most" retracts only respond to full 100% channel signals and not anything in between. So...
2) I'll try first to just hook it up to one of the flap channels and it should ignore all the "wiggling" until I deploy full flaps which are at 100%
3) If that does not work I'll connect a landing gear sequencer between the air brake retract and the flap channel. These tend to ignore all signals untill they have 100% for a few seconds.

The result should be an airbrake that deploys when I have flaperons fully deployed but not when I have them at half flaps for takeoff. We will see but it think this should work without the need for swapping out for a receiver with more channels. Let's see...

Ok so I tried this tonight. It almost worked and I was right about the air brake retract ignoring signals other then 100%. The only problem I had is that when the flaps were deflected to 100% the airbrake started deploying immediately - not a good thing during flight and doing rolls. I need a delay circuit that would delay the signals by a second or two. I ordered one from Hobbywing: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...regulator.html

Let's see if this will work? Almost there, still cheaper than swapping the receiver...

[xviper]

Ok so I tried this tonight. It almost worked and I was right about the air brake retract ignoring signals other then 100%. The only problem I had is that when the flaps were deflected to 100% the airbrake started deploying immediately - not a good thing during flight and doing rolls. I need a delay circuit that would delay the signals by a second or two. I ordered one from Hobbywing: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...regulator.html

Let's see if this will work? Almost there, still cheaper than swapping the receiver...

So nothing happens with the airbrake at 1/2 flaps? Is the airbrake deployment instantaneous or is it slow?