Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

There's no damage to new magnets either. The manufacturing process in large bulk is just not perfect. The absolute best build would include matching the best magnets in the lot by weight and strength and distributing them equally around the bell. There also the option of re-zapping the already installed PM. Top slot car guys do it all the time. They build the rigs with a few 600 volt caps and a transformer. And simply recover their magnet that can be to full power. Its been discussed on the forums here and there for years. Christian has even posted the rig he put together for the outrunner on the flying giants thread. You haven't built one yet in 20 years but love to type hype.

What you need to be concerned with is not what we do here in the American winding program but your own personal limits. Stop trying to set limits for hobbyist in the art of motor winding and building to just the simple basic things you do. The only reason you speak against any of it is because you cant do it yourself and you hate to see something receive more interest than a parallel wye with bifilar wiring at the incorrect slot levels for optimized ac operation. Every single coil carries uneven current between the two strands. ones hotter than the other versus an even distribution between the two strands. Everyone at electronics knows a twisted pair rejects parasitic crosstalk between the two wires. The trans positioned hairpin uses the same exact principle as trans positioned conductors and almost all the high end EV use it so they can utilize linguini pasta copper coils .

The star - delta is two separate motors wound on a shared core connected serially to work together as one but they are trans positioned by 30 degrees. and that changes the magnetic forces placed upon the stator and the bell that dictate vibrations and harmonic boost and attenuations and thus the waveform of the machine. Your noisy bi filar grossly overloaded motor is no special beast it can't help tame. Do not sit there in crocoworld where I cant get at you and tell the guy a lie.

[Clugh]

"Should Dr Okon explain to all of us which eddy current losses, sink effects and proximity losses, in his opinion, are not included in the no-load current measurements. Should he substantiate his assertion about which unrecorded losses are involved and why the company Maxon Motoren published an incorrect formula for calculating the maximum efficiency in their writings.

I bet Mr. Dr Okon will not give us that answer.


Nobody in the forum really knows anything about electric motors. Scorpion is now taking revenge on the fact that they only listened to a kitchen table hobbyist who had no training in electronics or electric motor development. The other manufacturers employ at least people who have received appropriate training. In the Rc forum, neither of the two gentlemen asks oh these losses are always included in the no-load current measurement, they don't just disappear or as you write with the more suitable controllers you can reduce it better or with other production measures. Also compares Dr Okon two completely different engine designs. No one ever asks that he should wind 10 turns of wire around an iron core with 10 cm^2 and then around an iron core that has 40% more iron, i.e. with 14 cm^2. Then apply current to the coils and increase it until the iron core is saturated. Now measure the magnetic lifting force that each of these electromagnets can lift. Yes, the iron core with 14 cm^2 has much greater power. And that's exactly how it is in the electric motor. The one with the thicker stator teeth saturates much later and achieves the higher rotary thrust, which means more torque, which means that the same speed means higher performance. kids stuff. Nobody in the forum asks why do the old Scorpion motors have thinner stator teeth and the newer motors have thicker stator teeth, why do they have them? After Mr. Okon should nevertheless achieve the same achievements with the thinner ones. One can easily understand these statements by Dr Okon simply forgot, they are based on utter ignorance from him who has never received any training in these fields."

who wrote that Ralph? I didn't It is a letter iI received from another manufacture.

Anyway In the attachments is the ferrite magnet version of a home brew zapping rig

Thanks
Hubert

[Clugh]

Hi,
I have three F3A 14 polers going out tomorrow. They are built with using the ceramic hybrid bearings treated with tungsten disulfide and the hardened internal sleeve that ties them together axially for longevity with the gearbox. The wires are thermally couples to the stator with boron nitride infused high temp epoxy. The stators are secured to the carriers with loctite 609 and a long 2mm stainless machine screw in the keyway. The main shaft is also boned with logtite 609 and the setscrew are preheated and torques with high strength thread locker. I have them on the bench and so far the KV is right around 910 the phase resistance is 14.5 milliohms.


I have the 7X10 APC mounted right now and will leave you a log on 8 s lipo and recorded constants with a little video.

This way anyone may enjoy the data in their own calculators or the Maxon Eq 1.92 to decide if it fits their perspective applications...


Thanks for your time and patience,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Guten Morgen Deutschland. F3S-Piloten, die von einer Bifilarwicklung in paralleler Sternwicklung überzeugt sind, sind keineswegs optimal. Die deutschen Doktoren der Bundeswehr können Ihnen versichern, dass ein niedriger Gleichstromwiderstand und eine maximale Füllung nicht annähernd so wichtig sind wie der Wechselstrombetrieb. Sie wurden also getäuscht. Die führenden Elektroexperten in Deutschland werden Ihnen einreden, dass der Gleichstromwiderstand nur unter etwa Hz 400 ansteigt. Wenn Sie Bifilarwicklungen verwenden, benötigen Sie mindestens eine Drehung pro Spulenwindung auf der Rückseite. Die echten Doktoren in Deutschland wissen, dass sich selbst bei einem Kilo der Wicklungswiderstand halbiert, wenn Sie parallele Litzen ohne 180-Grad-Drehung wickeln.

Das kommt von Simon Vogt, der kein Dipl.-Ing. wie Helmut, sondern Lehrstuhlinhaber an der Technischen Universität München ist
Fakultät für Maschinenwesen
Lehrstuhl für Umformtechnik und Gießereiwesen und Dr.-Ing.

[Clugh]

Why a parallel wound bifilar is not optimal for the speed pilot. Maybe a Doctorate in engineering can drive it home....



Type 3 means a twist of the conductor 180 on the backside each turn type 4 is a front side and type 5 is twist in the slot which takes up more space.


"Only increasing the slot filling ratio (demonstrator compared to reference stator)leads to a slight improvement only up to a frequency of approximately 220 Hz, and above this, losses due to the toothed stator and the manual insertion of the coils predominate, the selected, predominantly manual production chain leads to greater variations than the series process, from approximately 400 Hz, the DC resistance plays only a minor role and, due to the required standardization, cannot be directly evaluated using the current clamp method and can therefore only be considered in the LCR measurement, increasing twisting of the parallel wires can significantly reduce losses at highfrequencies, under the given boundary conditions, coils with 16 parallel wires twisted within the slot can no longer be reliably manufactured, coils with a twist after each slot pass in only one of the two winding heads (Type 3) reduce losses so significantly that further twisting(Type 4 and Type 5) does not achieve a significant improvement. With the chosen manufacturing strategy, coils with 14 parallel Type 3 wires."

~Simon Vogt, Dr Ing.~

When you wrap parallel conductors there is a deviation on the current of those individual wires versus the average of the bundle . The ac resistance raises and the percentage of deviation of current grows with #'s of parallel untwisted strands and diminished significantly when you add a twist per turn. You don't need Litz for good effect. Detailed measurements and data record was carried out by the Dr Ing. All the methodology and measuring devices were included in the peer of result.

[Clugh]

Edit it was a 17 x 8E

[Clugh]

Hi,

if you don't believe it about a bifilar scorpion wind then you can test a bifilar parallel wye or delta . Pull a current clamp around one of the individual strand and measure the deviation of current from the average . That imbalance drives up the impedance ..In a bi filar delta HK5050 there are 8 parallel spaghetti strands .(>1mm in diameter) in each motor terminal. in a parallel wye HK 5050 there are 4 strands in each motor terminal

You need hall sense current clamp, a scope, signal generator, and bench DMM. its very easy to test.

The DD should also have a higher idle current as proof of what happens when you add parallel stranding.



Danke,
Hubert.

[Clugh]

Hi Dr Okon. I see you reading here. Do you remember this motor in the attachments? The pretty orthocylic lay with bifilar in 2 x 1.18 mm? It was 4 part motors all wire in parallel so each motor terminal was 8 strands of conductors in UVW.
Look at what you said here.

Originally Posted by powercroco

"If someone winds in the real world in part motors, there is an easy way to really find out, if the losses of the parallel switched part motors increase much.
you can wind and terminate them step by step and measure the single motors on 7455stator.

in this special case I found for the idle currents:

1 motor: 11,35A (2 untwisted parallel Strands)
2 motors: 11,5A (4 untwisted parallel strands)
3 motors: 11,72A (6 untwisted parallel strands)
4 motors: 12,02A (8 untwisted parallel strands)
4motors with another winding (3 x1,18mm): 12,2A (12 untwisted parallel strands)

if someone condsiders, that the ohmcial resistancy decreases to 1/4, the increase of losses by switching the motors in parallel is really low. (there are only 6% (7,5%) increase of idle current by switching the 4 motors in parallel)

if someone uses the holy formulas with these data , he can easily find out, what affects the efficiency more:
the 4 times higher stall current (400%)(500%) by decreasing the ohmical resistance to 1/4 or 1/5.
or
the increase of idle current by 6% (7,5%) !"



last but not least in real life someone has to consider, how much of the increase of 0,7A (0,9A)in idle current is a follow of the higher iron losses and ac losses in the coils and how much is the follow of the much lower ohmical resistance!"

[Clugh]

Let me address the most obvious first.

Firstly 'Ohmical' is not really a word but the ohm law refers to DC were talking about AC so Impedance is what we are looking at here. Learn the difference DOCTA.

In addition to resistance as seen in DC circuits, impedance in AC circuits includes the effects of the induction of voltages in conductors by the magnetic fields (inductance), and the electrostatic storage of charge induced by voltages between conductors (capacitance). The impedance caused by these two effects is collectively referred to as reactance and forms the imaginary part of complex impedance whereas resistance forms the real part.

So you see youre already in trouble with your thinking.

The term impedance was coined by Oliver Heaviside in July 1886. Heaviside recognised that the "resistance operator" (impedance) in his operational calculus was a complex number. In 1887 he showed that there was an AC equivalent to Ohm's law

1. Oliver Heaviside, The Electrician, p. 212, 23 July 1886, reprinted as Electrical Papers, Volume II, p 64, AMS Bookstore, ISBN 0-8218-3465-7

[Clugh]

As you've been told before the AC resistance can be 10 times the dc with parallel strands and while you think a few point in idle current is nothing you never explained to the readers that despite the low dc resistance all the paralleling gave you and the copper fill the best the thing did was and eta of 83%

What about that fact ???

17% of real loss???? Not 1 of the single wire parallel wye's wound in a motor this size would generate an eta that low.

Learn the difference between DC and AC resistance Doc.

And that stall current doesn't even come into play at the frequencies the motor runs at. I told you that years ago . Since Dr Gerling is a cited refrence on the Phd. You should ask him another Phd. about itz validity.

Low dc resistance is not stopping them from burning up, and it has zero to do with noise killing the magnets because there is no frequency at stall!!!!! U gotta have magnets for any of the bs to work.... All frequency induced losses are not present there but they sure are when you are running at WOT!!!

You are very confused about how this works and that may be why your results never match anyone elses in the world on the subject matter.

The big motor doesn't make any torque either based on MHZ specifications of it. There are lighter motors that make much more.


Danke,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Its funny he says an amp in idle current is nothing but 1 amp time 50 volts is 50 watts but 2 amps by 50 volts is 100 watts. Ask the Dr if the 100 watt soldering iron is hotter than a 50 watt....

The other point is the mean current deviation of the strands so some of the wires are significantly hotter than the others. None of that's good for the highest efficiency which is almost everything in an electric motor.

[Clugh]

Ive explained umpteen times the motors move with AC not DC. It is not a brushed DC motor.

[Clugh]

Itz funny . The 4225 was 1 milli the align was 5 milli but the ETA was 3% points higher with 5 times your resistance. and a much better Io

[Clugh]

Ohmical Dr? Ohms law is just one law in electronics. There are many others laws and theorems concerning various circuits in electronics.

Try Faraday's



Get some sleep buddy....

[Clugh]

Hallo, ich sehe, du bist noch da. Was hast du vor? Deine Freunde warten sicher auf eine würdige Erwiderung ...

[Clugh]

Hi m reading more speed BTW

"The new Typhoon Ultra max was ready in time for the GSC. Thanks to Marcus for laminating.
Let's see how it goes at the weekend.
Drive Scorpion HK5050 (Powercroco) with 16S SLS Speed cells and YGE ESC prototype."

~Thomas Moldtmann~

The response

"The load should weigh about 6kg, so it needs at least 25kW, good luck!
Where is the CSD reported?"

~Audio smith~

And he's right since scorpion only reports 11kw for a 5040 so it will be grossly underpowered if it need 25 kW!!! its at least 10 short. no one will average 600 kmh with it because no one ever has....

[Clugh]

Dr. Okon, ich erkenne auch die Heuchelei darin, dass Sie diesem neuen Wickler, der seinen Stator ziemlich gut gewickelt hat, sagen, Sie trauen der Wicklung nicht, weil sie sich lösen kann, obwohl Sie derzeit nichts an Ihren Motoren verwenden, trotz all dem Gerede über Aluminiumoxid. Als der Wickler Sie fragte, womit er seine Drähte befestigen soll, ignorierten Sie ihn, um sich nicht ins Fettnäpfchen zu treten.

HK4225 Croco Winding | Page 3 | RC-Network.de!


What a hypocrisy! His winding is as safe as yours which also uses nothing to secure your wires.

[Clugh]

Were still using Boron nitride here in America

[Clugh]

Now Im off to wind 2 more 650 growlers for 2 more TDR's to control the helifreaks.. See the horrible "smearing the American does"???? Your friend in Bayern was also wrong about the ceramic bearings he has no clue about the special lubricant we use unless I told ya, which is the slickest in the world.

You all are so high end with the pure insulator UHU endfest and 5 dolla NBM's. How could we ever compete...?

You should ask Lucas what the coefficient of friction is on the grease his steel bearings use or that packed in a NMB or maybe even your 7455 bearings from CHINA! Louis asked you about.

They are surely trash....if its not Swiss German or Japanese made I don't want it in my motor PERIOD! You can install and run the garbage into the ground. I'm absolutely elated about that....


Layta Gator
Hubert

[Clugh]

If I build a dedicated engine for the purpose the bearings would be turbine grade ceramics so about 300 dollars for a pair. They will never be replaced! and can run well over 100,000 rpm with load rating about 3 or 4 times a hobby grade radial bearing.

An NMB is not an electric motor quality bearing. That's fact. Its a general purpose bearing that works good enough for the average hobbyist. People looking for custom wound engines with 5 to 10 thousand dollar planes are not the average hobbyist though.
That would be a goal.

We have a different design philosophy. You want to perform yearly maintenance which you will so severely underpowered but if its possible Id like to not ever see engine I built again! To me that's a worthy goal One may never achieve but that's certainly what a customer would prefer. Endless running.

But im not greedy like some people....

I also wonder if legendary nitromethane engine builders like Henry Nelson or Dubb Jett said. "oh well that's good enough"