Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

Its too bad that people aren't more friendly on the forums. Did you know Ralph that the hobbyist is the manufacture of a very nice motor single contra drive. The ratio is 7:1 and this gurl can absorb 4.5 kW and its all metal with well thought out CNC construction. Very nice. Look what his pyro 600s loads in to.

[Clugh]

Quite an upgrade to the standard planetary gear reduction Steve and Thomas use with the motor Ralph. I hope all the characters on GSM like it. I sure do.😁 I've never turned away or ignored anyone asking for help. That defeats the purpose of a hobby forum. I don't know how you all do it over there but these boys are smart as hell and connected. They have some really nice things going on in pattern flight. I'm absolutely impressed with what they have shown me. They are accomplished very advanced modelers out of Canada.


Regards
Hubert

[Clugh]

It would be nice if the Valenok prototype from Zubax Robotics quickly releases. Id love to see how the agnostic inverter sees the contra load and optimizes its commutation around that. This new drive is going to be a killer edition in RC. I'm prodding Pavel often but they have a few bugs to work out. I truly think they need to switch to GaNfet technology. Im designing a bridge based on that to team with their logic which is truly state of the art. Im hurt that hobby ruined its relationship with APD since I helped to expose the market to what a great inverter it is. I still have commercial ties with them that I could exercise if I really need to but there are other options on the Horizon and BL heli 32 is a really good avenue to go. Ive said it 100 times someone should hack a robust bridge to its logic. Having low pass filtering options at the inverter is an extremely nice option if you know how to use it. TI has a million example of high current bridge topology. It isn't rocket science for people willing to put in the time to build something application specific. With Zubax's logic module an advanced modeler can exceed what hobby manufactures offer buy utilizing board houses that do 8 layer PCB's of their own design utilizing GaNFet and SiCFet technology. I can only invite people again and again to the technology available. I cannot make them use it. Its easier to complain on the forums...about a state of the art company and their products from the world of user error..

A high current power stage for a single phase could not be simpler than this...
The fet drivers are embedded in their logic module.

[Clugh]

Ralph post that the YGE is better for speed pilots who have maximum demands and want and controller that would deliver it into failure if that's the case. I don't understand the logic or the idea. Because of course the YGE 320 has a current limit. Its 320 continuous direct from the manufacture. So if anyone ever pulled more than around 452 ampere with one without fail I'd love to see it. If a person truly want a dumb inverter that can do more current that 452 amperes SAFELY you need to build a bridge that can truly deliver that and if you want it dumb why not use a mc33035 bldc motor control IC ? It is logic based (digital) and therefore very fast and reliable.

It drives a trap signal with a hall sensor so it would work better with single layers. If trap is not the optimal in torque and power delivery than a sinus dual layer why it that EF1 uses it?

There is no way a hammerless head armature and spoke pm rotor produce a sinusoidal waveform....

[Clugh]

[Clugh]

mc33035-d.pdf (onsemi.com)

Here is a fast "Dumm" controller that can be configured to not care. You could add a 12 pin or 16 pin PIC or aurduino or something similar to control all the switched inputs based on you own hardware and coding setups. So it could still be smart as it senses current and still has overlimit protections ...


Also included are protective features consisting of undervoltage lockout, cycle−by−cycle current limiting with a selectable time delayed latched shutdown mode, internal thermal shutdown, and a unique fault output that can be interfaced into microprocessor controlled systems. Typical motor control functions include open loop speed, forward or reverse direction, run enable, and dynamic braking. The MC33035 is designed to operate with electrical sensor phasings of 60°/300° or 120°/240°, and can also efficiently control brush DC motors

~Motorola~

[Clugh]

Hi Ralph,
I see you on speed dial. 😘 I just want to tell you if your friend had wound the hybrid and captured the wave form he would not see a sinus but almost an asymmetrical sawtooth (triangular) waveform just sharply rounded at the tops and bottoms. If you understand what waveforms are comprised of harmonically and what shapes would be associated with what harmonics it is easy to correlate the expected waveform shape with the attenuation of specific harmonics with the hybrid wind. Harmonics shape the waveform so having them present as in the case of a single layer BEMF is not necessarily a bad thing or to be seen as noise. Again it would depend on the inverter you intend to drive it with. Since the YGE is a supposedly a "synbred" drive the only time it works optimally with a sinus wave form is at partial load. Wide open its a trap drive and with a sinus motor ripple is likely increased then. The best wind for it has to be a hybrid because it is neither ideally set for blac or bldc through its entire throttle range if it is indeed a synbred drive.

Its your choice to $tay gifted but it seems to me the yung generation electronics 320's were designed for helis to work optimally with a lot of partial throttle demands not speed flight in inflated hotliners at wide open throttle. It has the highest dc resistance in class and so it also runs the hottest there over castle, kontronics, and apd. @ 600 dollars Its physical hardware and processor is indeed likened to a 100 dollar turnigy you can buy at hobby king. Have you ever taken the time to examine the onboard hardware it sports and that fact?

Hope you understand,
Hubert

[Clugh]

What I don't understand is why Scorpion has not required you to try and record comparative data using their drive with their motor 👀. Its a six step drive and should run a single layer or BLDC topology exceptionally well

It can do 32khz so a much better brake and lower induction motor it can run. A dual inverter setup on half stators with separate batteries would attenuate the 2 pole harmonic in the single layers deliver 800 amperes peak and its small enough to do that . Its only around 240 grams with heatsinks! The 320 has none. 🙈 the other thing to note is the latest firmware comes with even more protections so as you want DUMMER scorpion wants smarter...just like APD. It has much better more capable hardware than the 320...and cost the same dime....and amperage rating.


28.12.2022

We have just released our latest Firmware update for all Tribunus II (II+) ESCs. This is Firmware V71.


- Improved protection Handling specific to when demag protection is activated
- Expanded Protection Limits for use with wider variety of Motors
- Adjustable Protection Safety Margin. Allowing users to over ride safety protections for specific applications.

NOTE: Default parameter of 25% is used for Protection Safety Margin. This shall work for all standard use cases. Please write to us at support@spihk.com prior to adjusting this value. Adjusting to 0% could result in ESC failure


Its really kind of crazy the kettle logic of a dumm inverter only geared towards max amp delivery. If the motors are running into Demag at the current available with a yge 320. The motors are the limits not truly the protections on smart inverters...The over powered motor pm's are going to lose adequate commutive field long before there and no inverter is going to stay in sync no matter what amperage they deliver. I dont care what you tell Steve Neu on rc groups about not being in saturation. The iron cores of your motors may not be in saturation at your peak operational points but your own post have shown the rotors pm certainly are.



Regards
Hubert

[Clugh]

Ralph,
You have to ask yourself if your metric of what works best is what manufactures offer why it is then that scorpion offers a 32khz six step drive for its machines?? Certainly Martin and company knows what scorpion motors do. I also see now they offer a 14 pole axially cooled bell... A 5025 A- series 😀. I guess they know the 14 pole is a quieter more balanced modally vibrational machine. They don't care like Thomas about the slight increase in erpm required in the inverter on 14 poles because it is so much faster and capable than a 320 processor it's nothing to even think about.

All the modern high erpm drone inverters sporting brushless heli 32 bit architecture use 6 step trap commutation so what does it all mean sir?

...they can all run 14 poles at very high rpm without a sweat. Drone and UAV technology is currently leading all aspect of development in rc as far as I am concerned.

[Clugh]

Just so you know what the boys up north and the contra drives are all about. 👀

[Clugh]

A modelers from Australia mount of the contra drive
Ummh!...👀

[Clugh]

32 degrees Celsius Ralph. That's cool running on the 2m planes..... 🙈🙉🙊

[Clugh]

Its the Brenner drive Ralph.... the design is world class proven...

A HKIV 5040 is 839 grams...

Luv,
Hubert

[Clugh]

Its an interesting well proven contra combination with a pyro 650 at 650 Kv which is 3000 watts and 295 grams in 10 poles with a 150 degree magnet. So Im curious about a Neumotors 3834 is 260 grams can deliver 3000 watts and its a 22 pole machine with lower cogging torque much better magnets and bearings. Its construction is going run cooler as there are 6 large air cooling channels straight to the back iron. That could also be gas or liquid cooled. . The have radial fans and forced axial cooling directly to the windings. Its designed more for an airplane in my opinion. the laminations are thin neatly stacked and Steve will supply me raw stacks . From the numbers they seem to be more square on delivery meaning they deliver more torque per hp unit than alot of other motor out there and weigh less doing it. A pyro has one screw holding the stator in place on the carrier if I'm not mistaken. you see 6 here. so you can see Its not going anywhere and the motor weighs less. Its worth a shot. A pilot can buy at least 2 for the cost of 1 pyro.

Do you see the flat versus satin finish anodizing 👀

[Clugh]

[Clugh]

This is the Neu rotor and pm .

[Clugh]

Kontronics pyro is good powerful and light motor I suppose but their latest 1000.oo euro combination the project 1 reports on the German social media weren't that outstanding . They report it was noisy and only delivered an eta of 85%.... That wouldn't get my 1000 euros. That's out.

Gerd Giese

Presenter

Team

• Yesterday at 07:15

*** Think more positively!

*** Wrong, during the test I had vibrations without end. The dial gauge showed 0.12mm wave runout!
With the blatant vibrations, I had almost 85% Eta at 2.5KW shaft power

[Clugh]

I'd control the Neu with this if it were me....there's no way just based off the onboard hardware alone that a YGE is better. Im the german social media they trying to get they hands on them b4 the all sold out!!!

[Clugh]

Hi Ralph
You are here bright an early as usual. I want you to know.. I see the post on german social media Ralph.... with all the positive references from the German hobbyist to the APD inverter. So I guess they dont buy the reports you made on APD and prefer a smart inverter...👀
I see you and your friend from Bayern sliding to the music after both slamming the inverter you never used. I see Lehners green garden dwarf there recommending it to Steve for high speed outrunners on the pyro 600 GSM pages after talking noise on it on RCU boat pages simply because he was mad at me and I'm the one introduced him to the inverter in the first place...

Thats how yall roll..😁

Regards
Hubert

[Clugh]

While they backslide in Bayern Ralph.... The F3's can do 750,000 erpms the PRO HV is F4 and can do 1million!. It can turn a 14 pole motor over 100,000 rpm. It can drive all the relevant high pole outrunner motors into mechanical failure. Don't forget the pro is also beta flight compatible so it can accommodate low pass filtering PID tuning etc. That comes from its drone lineage. A YGE 320 is truly a long ways away. Lehner whose claim to fame is a 2 pole motor anything can run 100,000 rpm teams with MGM which is an excellent inverter so why didn't he recommend them for highspeed outrunners ??? Go spec the speed limits. 🙈 They will also be less friendly to any hobbyist that does not know what he is doing than APD ever would. IF you misconfigure an MGM comp pro drive and it fails. They will not pay for it You will!!! Test it! because I guarantee they not gone cover newbie foolishness. I have a colleague in OZ. Dr Wayne, that does or did repairs for them. I'm telling you what I know. They have a strict return policy and are going to determine to the best of their ability if you were problem b4 they pay for anything. You are going to pay a pretty penny for their inverters and if you are negligent you will continue to pay for their inverters. Hobbyist can know that going in....😶 as far as features Its top notch and has also synchronous rectification. But still with the tech available today any serious minded modeler can still build his own highly sophisticated drive so if he can't buy what he wants he shouldn't complain on forums he should build what he needs for his own demands.

APD was giving people free returns and repairs without determining if the customer was at fault. People still complained on the forums when they didn't correspond with them daily about their issue but APD is not a big company out of Melbourne and still doing alot of R&D.

What do you say about the market Ralph? Alot of people have zero good to say about castle but for me its been excellent with no failures in their lifetime of very longs years. Go figure...🤔

Regards
Hubert