Alternative motor windings and drive schemes

[Clugh]

Localmatador,

Dr. Okons Interesse rührt daher, dass seine traditionell gewickelten Sternmotoren bei Volllast in seiner Anwendung eine Desynchronisation und eine schwere Verschlechterung der Permanentmagnete in seinen Rotoren aufweisen. Er wird Ihnen jedoch in einem offenen Forum in Deutschland erklären, dass eine Wicklung mit diesen Ergebnissen an der PM Ihre Zeit nicht wert ist. Wenn Sie sehen, wie sehr er Sie in die Irre führt, sollten Sie ihn noch einmal auf die Probe stellen. Sehen Sie sich die PM-Verlustergebnisse mit der vorgeschlagenen Hybridwicklung an. Sie werden keinen billigeren oder einfacheren Weg finden, mit einer reinen Wicklung mehr Drehmoment und Effizienz aus der Maschine herauszuholen. Mit heißen Magneten verlieren Sie Flussdichte und bei Volllast laufen seine Motoren am heißesten. Die Hybridwicklung wird dem Ganzen enorm helfen!!! Wagen Sie es ja nicht, auf ihn zu hören. Er weiß nicht, wovon er redet.

Can you see P_Magnet ? There a difference of nearly 1000 watts of loss there.

So I know he doesn't have any real data and is just falsifying to you guys. It's truly unfortunate his attempt to save face.

The motors are also taking out the inverters with regularity. This is the YGE 320 he swears by with it. Even YGE Engineer Marian told the man its antiquated. Okon is wasting your time.
I am the one that Contacted YGE so they could tell him so...Ralph Argued with YGE about their own drive and how it works....

[Clugh]

Beachten Sie die Reduzierung der PM-Verluste. PM-Verluste erzeugen die Wärme der PM. Wenn sie heiß werden, geht die Flussdichte verloren, wie Duramagnetik ausführlich erklärt. Wenn die Drähte heiß werden, steigt der Widerstand dramatisch an. Diese Reduzierung der Permanentmagnet- und Rotorverluste führt zweifellos zu einem kühleren Rotor, der mehr Drehmoment liefern und die Durchsatzleistung steigern kann. Auch der Wechselrichter wird davon profitieren, da er ein definiertes Feld hat und so die richtigen Zeitpunkte für die drei Phasen erkennen kann. Darüber hinaus hat die Wicklung von Anfang an eine höhere Flussdichte und einen höheren Wicklungsfaktor. Bitten Sie den Dr., Ihnen seine „Volllastdaten“ zu zeigen, mit denen er dies getestet hat.

Wie Sie sehen, halbieren sich auch die gesamten harmonischen Verzerrungen, sodass der Motor auch einen höheren Leistungsfaktor hat. Er entwickelt mehr Wirkleistung. All diese Verlustreduzierungen führen zu einer kühler laufenden Maschine.

Thanks for your time and patience,
Hubert

[Clugh]

The Kontronics Pyro motors I wind for F3A are contracted work for pilots that use a Brenner contra drive V4
and specific inverters with specific settings. Dr Okon is not involved!

This is a 2 layer 14 pole P600 5+4 YY. On the castle hydra Ice HV200 v2 at 10 degrees timing it is right around 910 Kv. You do not have to look toward my contracted works supplying custom wound powerplants for word class counter rotational coaxial drives . I have 3 or 4 of these and at least two 10 pole motors going out this week. I'm sure the hybrid winding would work very well on them but all by themselves they and the antiquated simpler winding they use are not part of the star delta discussion.

Dr Okon your star - delta hybrid connection photo is a test wind with very small wire so how do you have FULL load data for your application? You have to have the real wire on the stator you run in the full load application. Where is the photo of that wind and the data at > 400 amperes????


Got ya again..... ...



TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

If the editor in Dresden Germany had a better hold on physical science then he would understand the destructiveness of noise and vibration alone to an electrical rotating machine with a narrow air gap. He would understand that the eccentricity at the airgap would lead to eccentricity at the waveform. The standard sensorless inverter has to time itself off that BEMF waveform. As a matter of all things in electronics you want the cleanest signals you can attain and so would the inverter. The magnets residual inductance is temperature dependent so how does the amateur winder in Dresden get around it with a standard machine and wind with zero amendments to cool the PM? How does he gain even 1 point of efficiency from the last 15 years? I offer to you that he doesn't gain even a point if he changes nothing like, the bearings, the wind, or the physical topology of the machine. His goal is for the hobbyist to keep buying the old scorpion wound the old way because that the easiest thing to complete in volume and require less thinking and labor to wind it than the star - delta hybrid.

BTW Dr Gerling and the University have been in full cooperation with AUDI this entire time. The e-traction in it and the rover use hybrid multi layer hairpin winding topologies not 2 layer parallel wyes like the amateur hobbyist's scorpion powered speed planes, if that's his metric. Who uses what in industry. You can follow that metric down many lines. For example......
No one uses a 12N10P 2 layer parallel wye's in the most modern automotive Etraction or airplane propulsion in industry.

Only about 1% of the hobby motor manufactures use hand wound mono strand orthogonally wound coils so if that's Dr Okons metric why is he winding his motor this way in the first place?

The entire idea is to improve the windings over the OEM commercially off the shelf offerings so that's certainly a counter productive metric that makes absolutely zero sense!

And in fact 10 pole machines are becoming less and less in hobby outrunners!!! So metrically why is the hobbyist in Dresden Germany still winding 10 pole machines?

There can not be logic in him using such a metric then because he himself does not follow it.

[Clugh]

Oct 4th 2023 Dr Okon wrote about his 5050 speed plane motor.

"Today a 5050 has returned.
Fortunately, the warranty had expired.

In any case, don't be fooled by the fact that the front of the wcklung still looks quite chic!
From behind, a completely different picture can emerge.

Interestingly, the Kapton inlays survived the heat unscathed, although some wires have melted off and their missing copper can be found distributed on the outside of the stator. Can happen at 470A peak.....

You can also see that only 2 groups of a partial engine were affected.

2x Blessing in disguise:
1. The fat YGE Steller survived
it
2. The throwing winding, which was just quickly botched, has shown thatthe n spec deviates from the initial value by only 1.6% - that is, the magnets are still okay and a restoration of the object is worthwhile.

It will probably be his turn in December.....

Again to the burned-out 5050: When spinning by hand, it shows a detent, which is not there with the engine completely intact.
This in turn suggests that one or the other magnet is reduced in its strength.
I don't have the equipment to find out exactly what's going on.

The last time I had this was with a pyro - at first I thought that a magnet had come loose, which is usually the cause of a sudden snap. Unfortunately, the n spec could no longer be checked. In any case, the manufacturer, who apparently has a corresponding measuring device, showed that 4 of the 14 magnets were "dead" and all the others were also reduced in performance."

[Clugh]

On June 15 2023 Dr Okon wrote this about another one of his speed plane motors.

Here is a rather hopeless case, at least as far as the bell is concerned.
Apparently, the motor has lost balancing mass, which led to collisions between the stator package and the magnets, at least in the interception arcs at the narrowest point of the air gap.

The stator package was a good 300°C hot at the affected point according to the discoloration.
The high-temperature GRP of the insulating discs and the slot inserts made of Kapton and also the two-layer coating of the wire have put up with this.
4 of the magnets, at least at their lower ends - there they have become completely powerless.

the error was noticed on the spot: the engine suddenly began to squeak under full load, which it had never done before.

Unfortunately, this was the now multiple world record engine with 0.1 plates and a fairly light bell.
I don't have the right spare part in stock anymore and Georges is also retired.
But I now have 2 years until the next WR attempts to come up with something."

[Clugh]

On July 7 2023 Dr Okon followed it up with:

"The plan for the repair of this engine is now in place.
The defective original magnets are replaced by the 6% narrower ones of the HK 4540.
The magnetic mass decreases by 7g as a result.

The reason for this is that now only N35 SH magnets are used, but my 4540 "spare parts" still come from the times when N50EH were used.
It will be interesting to see what changes will be observed with the narrower magnets."

And then on July 8 2023

"The new magnets are in and the motor is running again.
The good old N50EH are actually a bit stronger than the parts installed in the factory 5040.
Fortunately, the n spec has even dropped minimally despite the slightly lower coverage.
In other words, since the stator side has not been changed, the torque has risen relatively high."

Finally it was followed up on the July 11 2023

"In the end, the overall package has even become a few 1/10gr lighter.
The concentricity is also top with 10S, there are almost no vibs noticeable.
Now I'm waiting for suitable batteries for a full load test."

[Clugh]

On November 14th 2023 Dr Okon wrote:

"The next candidate is a completely overloaded HK 4225,
which did not pass the 1000V test.

It should have 530-550/V again in the end.
According to my data, a 7+6x1.32YY fits pretty well (535/V on the YGE 18° fix)

On Nov 16 2023 he wrote
"The 5025 for the transmission is now ready for testing.

The "cooked" 4225 has also been completely dismantled in the meantime.
Even the insulated discs just crumbled. The fact that the paper was completely muddy was to be expected anyway.

With new insulating discs and an "n-spec determination winding" and a brand-new bell for speed comparison, it is also waiting for its test run.

The 4225 is not yet: the n-spec is 10% higher with the grilled bell than with the new one.
So it is replaced. In my opinion, the kits from my box even have the N50EH magnets in them.

In addition, there is also Kapton in the slots, new bearings and the 6+7x1.32YY.

it will thus surpass the best of the current factory engines"

[Clugh]

By the 3 of Jan 2024 the Dr Okon post this.

"Since Christmas, I have had the opportunity to take a closer look at apparently weakened magnets.
In my "warehouse" there are still some magnet sets that have obviously suffered in use and also new ones of the same size. They will help me to become more familiar with the device and the results.
Should be interesting.
And I have another interesting test option for the motor checks in addition to visual inspection, 1000V and ns determination."

But he reports in 2025 to Localmatador on the same forum this is posted on that a wind that halves pm loss and generates 3.5% more torque his application has no use for...

[Clugh]

So we can establish from his own accounts that demagnetization and thermal failure is an often enough occurrence for his precious engines in THEIR APPLICATION!!!



His applicable "truth" about the star-delta hybrid winding is so evident from these previous post!!! Of Course his motors have no room for any of the improvement it brings.

Who believes it but the 8 pilots in crocoworld?

TTYL
Hubert

[Clugh]

This motor is of particular interest when he speaks on our use of thermally conductive material to secure the wire
I find it totally interesting that his German comrades question it but not his use of UHU construction epoxy that is a pure insulator and not thermally stable at the applicative temperatures.

Crocoworld's motor forum is a totally hilarious place to dwell if you want real answers about an electric motor. These hot hand grenades posted are the reference machines there. Look! It is fully equipped with a general construction epoxy as the securing agent that traps the heat in the wires and raises the resistance. I wonder what pilot was lucky enough to own the tinder box insulation.

Hubert

[Clugh]

Crocoworld never questioned THIS high quality encapsulation from you Dr Okon???? There's nothing for them or you to really say about what we do here. You recommend the antiquated YGE 320 which unlike new drone inverters it does not have demag compensation. Your inverter choice is old and out of date. If the motor didnt short WHY DID IT BURN UP DOC?

Look at the BLheli 32 programming suite and then look at your 320's and all it lacks in terms of modern day inverter capability iT also has a very slow processor compared to a 32 bit Atmel Based drone inverters made for fast 10 and 14 pole outrunners

[Clugh]

Its not even close Dr .

A YGE 320 can drive 16 Khz max pwm the F4 Atmel processors can drive 128 Khz. It has much more ability to stay in sync than the turnigy brained yung generation 320

you will figure it out in about 6 more years.

[Clugh]

Dr... any capable person if they really want to can tell you at those amperages and frequencies what The N50 loses. Youre not really hiding anything from capable people that really want to know. about the repeated rotor failures. We already know for permanent damage to be done the magnets saw in excess of 180 degrees centigrade. You are not fooling any deductive thinkers with a brain at electronics

You know the MAGNETS grading comes with frequency driven hysteresis and amperage saturation loss charts for years........ right?



Why are you hiding this morning and where's that " full load data" you claim you have on the star-delta 12N10P winding now? You're late for class buddy ... and you do know that those temperatures in the magnets will certainly start to give the inverter commutative timing issues long before unrecoverable damage to the pm occurs right.??? And so when you make a decision to run the YGE with all safeties disabled including thermal, you and the motor are the reason for the inverters failure.

Is 68% real eta YOU report at full load not at the ends of itz ropes anyway? I'm just Curious Dr Okon where the hell do you think that 32% of loss goes?

Lets be real about your application guy... . 7000 watts is alot to dissipate for a handheld motor

You telling me you see all this empirical thermal damage not caused by locked rotors or failed bearings and you just rewind the same thing and give it back with no more power handling than it had previously?

To really do what they want to do which is exceed 600 Km/h consistently from the logs that direct drive motor needs to be able deliver 400 amperes continuously ALL DAY under 100 degrees centigrade and peak around 692 amperes.

You can achieve driving it in dual 3 phase. You need at least a 200 ampere continuous inverter on each stator half.

Danke
Hubert

[Clugh]

Running the motors in dual 3 phase certainly delivers more through put but it also attenuates noise and also cools the rotor and magnets. You can optimize it further to reduce common mode voltages by amending the transistor firings.in the truth table. You can also cascade the inverter bridges for sub harmonic elimination. (S.H. E.).

In your current form factor of a 5050 to get more out of the wire you have to leave a dual layer wye. You can get so much more out of the pasta windings if you wind 3 to 4 layers. or amend to the hybrid or single layers with slot wedges or the right stator geometry.

[Clugh]

Was Sie also bekommen, ist ein Verschwinden, keine Erklärung und irgendein nordischer Mist in Ihrem Avatar?...


How are you making any real torque when the motor magnets are well exceeding 200C which is the working temp for an N50EH. Its funny because a HKIII5040 is wound with 2 strands of 1.4mm wire in a 3+4 YY
The idle current of 3.10 amperes @ 1o volts but it runs at nearly 70 volts where the pasta conductor proximity monster is probably around 9 to 12 amperes at least


The Kv is 530 and the resistance is 6 milliohm. The max current for the motor is only 2oo amperes at 16s lipo. The max power delivery is only 14.8kW for 2 seconds....

If you examine your logs then Its grossly overloaded in your application of a 600 km/h speed plane from the start. How do you figure it doesn't need any help and to burn the enamel off takes 240C with the wire scorpion claims to use. It takes well over 200C to kill an EH grade magnet Dr Okon...



You skipped class today.... because scorpion power systems has a dyno and has already rated the 5040 in 1.4 bifilar YY at 11.8kW continuous....u need at least twice that to really see the 20kW you claim under 100C

You better try a maxon gearbox from US Bruder.

[Clugh]

Tun Sie mir einen Gefallen, Dr. Okon, und hören Sie auf, in Hobbyforen zu lügen. Sie haben keine Volllastdaten zum Hybrid im Vergleich zu dem, was Sie wickeln. Wenn Sie welche hätten, würden Sie sie aufzeichnen. Werden Sie erwachsen, Dr. Okon. Der Motor in Ihrer Anwendung brennt.

Ich sehe, dass du jetzt liest

Ihre Hybriddiskussion ist beendet, es sei denn, ich bin Ihre Fernbedienung.



Danke
Hubert

[Clugh]

Du steckst hier immer noch in der Dummheit fest. Es sollte unangenehm sein, deine eigenen Worte zu lesen, in denen du alle Motorprobleme beschreibst. Was ist die nächste Ausrede für 68 % in deiner Traummaschine? Was ist die nächste Lüge, die du in den deutschen sozialen Medien erzählst, wo sie es offensichtlich nicht besser wissen und dir deine eigenen Worte nicht an den Kopf werfen. Ich meine, deshalb postest du hier nichts. Du musst den ganzen Weg nach Deutschland rennen, an einen sicheren Ort, wo es keine Widerlegungen gibt. Es ist lustig, dass du von Verboten sprichst, wenn du bereits in einem selbstgebauten Gefängnis steckst, in dem dein Intellekt nicht wächst, sondern durch das Lob deiner Lakaien verfällt.

[Clugh]

Es gibt keine Entschuldigung dafür, dass Sie in Hobbyforen lügen.


Hubert

[Clugh]

Du kannst das melden…

Selbst in Deutschland wird der Thread ignoriert! Eine ehrliche Frage genügte, und die Lügen kamen ans Licht. Wenn Christian oder Thomas sie aufdecken würden, würden du und das gesamte Forum Daten verlangen. Das Forum ist ein Witz. Aber es schadet ihnen nur. Sie sind diejenigen, die ständig dafür bezahlen, sich verarschen zu lassen. Es ist definitiv eine verlorene Stadt mit einem verlorenen Anführer. Du hast sogar eine geheime Diskussionsgruppe auf WhatsApp eingerichtet, um die Lügen ungestört von Leuten zu verbreiten, die sie hinterfragen. Ihr alle betreibt eine massive Verschwörung gegen die deutschen Hobbyisten. Es gibt auch internationale Untertöne der Manipulation bei diesen Hinterhof-Speed-Events. Ihr habt sogar Kaffeeteller bei einem Gruppenkauf erpresst. Die meisten Lügen, die ihr über die Motoren erzählt, sind nicht einmal mehr öffentlich. Ich kann mir nur vorstellen, was für Lügen ihr auf WhatsApp verbreitet.


Die Art und Weise, wie Gerd, Klaus und Thomas Sie ohne Daten weiterschwafeln lassen, entkräftet die alberne Site.

Er hat den christlichen Thread geschlossen und Daten verlangt.



Du kannst alleine spielen gehen, weil du betrügst

Hubert