Official Freewing MiG-29 Fulcrum Twin 80mm Thread

[Evan D]

They are very different, the real ones were a generation apart and the models are too. To me, older, retired US Navy (I retired while serving on the USS Constellation which is the graphics the F-14 comes with) and worked on the F-14 it's a must have. The MiG is a more modern and capable bird. As far as the models, the F-14 comes with older out runners, has weak main gear especially for flying off grass. But it flies really well and with wings out is almost a trainer. The MiG has a better inrunner power system, also weak mains and has an issue called alpha lock or falling leaf that you should read about. But the MiG has a more dynamic presence in the air. It's a big plane. For me the MiG is a great plane to fly on windy or cross wind days, very stable. I don't have gyros in either the F-14 or MiG. If you get the MiG it's almost a must to get the thrust vectoring. Not only for the additional maneuverability but also to help get out of the alpha lock it WILL get into.

The F-14 really does need a fan and ESC upgrade. I put the MiG's inrunner fans and ESCs in my second one, the one I'm currently flying. Other than that and cleaning up the battery bays it really doesn't need anything unless you fly off grass and then you should consider the mods to strengthen the fuselage center area.

The MiG, depending on version, needs TVs, upgraded elevator servos, linkage and horns and, in my opinion larger gauge servo extensions. There is really no good way to reenforce the main gear mounting though Glider Guy has done it. In my opinion the stock power is fine.

Both really benefit from time spent in wire management, cleaning up the rats nest of wires.

Flight time, feel and weight... To me with the upgraded power in the Tomcat, the flight times are about the same (I use the same batteries in both too), the Tomcat feels a lot better and is much more relaxing for me to fly. Even with TV I'm always on edge about alpha lock. Weight, good question, I think the MiG is heavier but it doesn't fly heavier, it has a lot of wing. I've had two F-14's, silly me I got bored and sold the first one. After a dozen flights with the MiG I put it up for sale on RCG, then flew it some more and removed the for sale and then did that again, on and off the for sale section two more times. It's just not fun to fly but it really is impressive in the air. And it's currently for sale... For now...

[Donjay25]

Hi to those who have both. Which flies better, the freewing F14 or Mig 29? Flight times, feel, weight etc and general performance? Really undecided, but like both airframes. I’ll be using two FMS2100 fan units with 100amp ESCs.

Thanks,

Ant

[GliderGuy]

Good job! Now enjoy the MiG!

-GG

[jtconte]

Maidened it yesterday. Needed quite a bit of Down trim and some Aileron trim. Had a second or two of drama when I got her inverted and heading down, over and beyond a stand of trees. All ended well though. I think the CG was too far aft and adjusted the batteries positions to move it closer to the mark on the wings. Second flight was less traumatizing. Thanks for all the help!

[jtconte]

Ok thanks. Just wanted to understand it.

[GliderGuy]

How exactly does TV help to get out of the alpha lock situation?

Quite simple….

Without TV, recovery from high alpha lock is done by reducing the throttle to zero, waiting for the nose to fall, easing the throttle back up. THIS REQUIRES ALTITUDE. You won’t recover if you are low. You cannot “power out” of alpha lock. Power holds the nose up and keeps the angle of attack high.

With TV, increase power and move the elevator stick to a nose down position and “wait” a few seconds. Recovery at low altitudes is much more likely. The TV forces the nose low to reduce the angle of attack.

-GG

[jtconte]

How exactly does TV help to get out of the alpha lock situation?

[GliderGuy]

Considering….The few times I got into gust-induced alpha lock (not on purpose, but by surprise) out of “a lot” of flights equates to an EXTREMELY low probability of this happening.

However, as one increases the number of flights, one moves into the realm that the statistical probability is gonna bite you.

Now consider no TV (mine) but it happening with enough altitude to recover, that was the case of 3 alpha locks.

Going farther down the analysis’ path to the one fatal alpha lock, we end up here…..and the following puts it in perspective.

One unrecoverable alpha lock (no TV) in approximately 2000+ flights = great odds in your favor that you are not going to get into that unrecoverable situation.

Unfortunately, as the laws of probability dictate, you “might” get unlucky in just a few flights. Someone does usually win the lottery….albeit so small are the odds of winning.

I’d love to get another MiG! But not until I upgrade my radio to enough channels to drive the TV. Who knows, I could “win the lottery” and crash in the first few flights. Those are unacceptable odds to me….however small. I hate crashing beautiful expensive planes!

-GG

[xviper]

Nobody's "a lot" is anything like GG's "a lot".

[Evan D]

I flew mine a "lot" of flights without the TVs and even the original stock servos.... A "lot" for me, not you....

[GliderGuy]

I've never had a gyro in my MiG, I have very few of my planes outfitted with one and other than the Apprentice I keep for training I think all are to keep the tail wag in check or the plane steady in yaw for warbirds..

I personally think the Mig is a great windy day plane, I find it very stable. Yes it will get into alpha lock but with the TVs it's a non issue though does increase the stress waiting that second or two for it to drop the nose.

I totally agree “IF” you have TV installed.

Mind didn’t….I flew her a lot on windy days and loved it….UNTIL I didn’t any more after the crash due to not having TV.

-GG

[Evan D]

I've never had a gyro in my MiG, I have very few of my planes outfitted with one and other than the Apprentice I keep for training I think all are to keep the tail wag in check or the plane steady in yaw for warbirds..

I personally think the Mig is a great windy day plane, I find it very stable. Yes it will get into alpha lock but with the TVs it's a non issue though does increase the stress waiting that second or two for it to drop the nose.

[jtconte]

Hmmm….I can’t comment about AS3X. I fly Futaba.

I will say that for all but the last 100 or so flights, I flew the MiG without a gyro. I liked it both with and without the gyro. But worth noting the gyro didn’t save her.

Why not? As stated in my prior post, effective angle of attack caused by gusts MAY NOT always induce a pitch change in the aircraft. Changes in effective angle of attack happens in an instant. The inertia of the plane slows any movement about the three axis of flight.

Gyros respond to aircraft movement! Gyros do not respond to instantaneous changes in effective angle of attack which can happen without a pitch change/movement of the aircraft.

Make your initial flights in good conditions. You’ll appreciate the way she flies…lands like a dream!

-GG

I gotcha. Thanks!

[GliderGuy]

GG- I’m trying to keep things in perspective ;-) My most visited club commonly has cross winds and swirling air at both ends of the runway. The reason I use an AS3X receiver in my L-39. It helps smooth out that foul wind on landings. Until I get several flights in and get a feel for this model, I’ll fly it at my other club. Seems like AS3X may make things worse for this model if it gets bounced around on landing.

Hmmm….I can’t comment about AS3X. I fly Futaba.

I will say that for all but the last 100 or so flights, I flew the MiG without a gyro. I liked it both with and without the gyro. But worth noting the gyro didn’t save her.

Why not? As stated in my prior post, effective angle of attack caused by gusts MAY NOT always induce a pitch change in the aircraft. Changes in effective angle of attack happens in an instant. The inertia of the plane slows any movement about the three axis of flight.

Gyros respond to aircraft movement! Gyros do not respond to instantaneous changes in effective angle of attack which can happen without a pitch change/movement of the aircraft.

Make your initial flights in good conditions. You’ll appreciate the way she flies…lands like a dream!

-GG

[jtconte]

GG- I’m trying to keep things in perspective ;-) My most visited club commonly has cross winds and swirling air at both ends of the runway. The reason I use an AS3X receiver in my L-39. It helps smooth out that foul wind on landings. Until I get several flights in and get a feel for this model, I’ll fly it at my other club. Seems like AS3X may make things worse for this model if it gets bounced around on landing. As for the TV kit, I have a DX9 but would have to get a 10 channel receiver. Maybe sooner than later.

[GliderGuy]

GG- thanks for all the detailed information. I was not planning on TV since I know little about it. Normally it’s used for aerobatics and not for landing but it sounds like this model needs to have it on all the time just in case?
To be honest, I liked the paint scheme of the TV version Motion offered more but was intimidated by the TV. Feeling disappointed.

No reason for disappointment. She’s a fun bird to fly! Enjoy her, but be cautioned about flying on gusty/windy days. And remain watchful for the “surprise” she may send your way.

Keep it in perspective! On over 2000 flights, she got into alpha lock a very few times.

You can order the TV kit, but you need a radio with more than 6 channels to use it.

I VERY MUCH enjoyed flying the MiG.

-GG

[jtconte]

GG- thanks for all the detailed information. I was not planning on TV since I know little about it. Normally it’s used for aerobatics and not for landing but it sounds like this model needs to have it on all the time just in case?
To be honest, I liked the paint scheme of the TV version Motion offered more but was intimidated by the TV. Feeling disappointed.

[GliderGuy]

The thrust vectoring is primarily to get out of "alpha lock". If you don't fly that way, you don't need to worry about it. Thermals isn't the problem. It's flying too slow in high alpha and the plane doesn't have enough punch to fly out of it. The vector nozzles helps to get the plane out of that high alpha attitude so it can begin to increase airspeed more effectively.

To add to this, twice I found my (no TV) MiG-29 in alpha lock while in level flight at 50% power in the pattern….moving along at a good clip. Slow flight is definitely a gotcha, but not the whole story.

The gust (thermal or otherwise) instantly increased the effective angle of attack (no fuselage pitch change) which put the MiG into alpha lock. Recovery was initiated by moving the throttle to zero and waiting for the nose to fall down. Two times I had the altitude, but the entry into alpha lock was a surprise. Thus, my precaution about thermal induced gusts….sharp edge gusts of any type are problematic.

The third, last and fatal time was on base leg on a windy/gusty day. I was fairly far out, so had added power to speed up and flatten the approach. I was moving along at a good clip. A gust hit her and did pitch the nose up a little, but the effective angle of attack was pushed beyond the critical angle of attack for alpha lock. Instantly recognized by the feel/response ( or lack of). Recovery was attempted, but she was too low.

When I fly full scale sailplanes and power planes, thermals on approach can be a gusty and a significant challenge. The stall warning will sometimes make an instant beep due to the instantaneous increase in effective angle of attack caused by the thermal winds (no pitch change may be noted).

For the MiG, an instantaneous increase in the effective angle of attack may be all she wrote, if you are down low.

Bottom line, without TV to help recover…gusts are not friendly for the MiG…linear wind gusts or thermal induced gusts. Since rising thermal air has an upward motion component, it tends to act in a way that will instantaneously increase the effective angle of attack (see my definition below).

-GG

Definition of effective angle of attack = The actual angle of attack at any instant between the chord line and relative wind. This may instantly be changed by directional gusts. Pilot Operating Handbooks suggest carrying extra airspeed in windy/gusty conditions. This extra airspeed reduces the effective angle of attack (do the trigonometric resolution of the vectors).

Flying slow increases both the angle of attack and exacerbates any instantaneous changes in the effective angle of attack, so slow flight on a gusty (linear or thermal gusty) day is not a good idea, for sure.

[xviper]

I forgot to say I do not have Thrust Vectoring. Didn't get to that point in the thread before I ordered the non-TV version. I may have to avoid one of my flying fields as it often has thermal stuff happening at either end of the runway. Thanks for the tips!

The thrust vectoring is primarily to get out of "alpha lock". If you don't fly that way, you don't need to worry about it. Thermals isn't the problem. It's flying too slow in high alpha and the plane doesn't have enough punch to fly out of it. The vector nozzles helps to get the plane out of that high alpha attitude so it can begin to increase airspeed more effectively.

[jtconte]

I forgot to say I do not have Thrust Vectoring. Didn't get to that point in the thread before I ordered the non-TV version. I may have to avoid one of my flying fields as it often has thermal stuff happening at either end of the runway. Thanks for the tips!