Official Skynetic Bison XT STOL Discussion Thread

[Captain MoMo]

Oh boy - I feel for you James .....

[FlyinTime]

Just read through it and yeah, that's a tough break as there is absolutely no way to know if there was an actual issue with the plane itself or the set-up/piloting. That's the hardest thing with a hobby that fights gravity, unlike many other businesses. When something goes wrong upon leaving the ground, odds drastically decrease for a product's survival. That's why we need all the information to try and make a fair judgment call. But that's impossible with the limited info that was provided.

I feel for you. It sucks. All our CS guys are also hobbyists and we have all had accidents both by fault of an aircraft or by making a pilot error.

As for your review of the aircraft, since you seemingly took off and hit the trees rather quickly, not sure how you could even review the aircraft fully or fairly. So maybe just post your review here instead? This is an open forum for all to see and you are more than free to do so. But again, I don't know if it's been seen yet or not as I don't handle those myself.

Basically, I am giving you the same answer our CS person did above, which I know you don't like, but that's the best we can do in this situation. I haven't seen any other tickets regarding the Bison that claim a lack of power and I have flown it many times and it has more than enough on 6S when set up properly.

All in all, I wish there was a better outcome for you with this one, and even though we couldn't help you this time, I hope it doesn't turn you off from us forever as you can see we do care. Here I am at 9:30 pm empathizing with you off the clock because I, and our company, do care about our customers and try our best to help even if we can't all the time.

I truly wish you all the best in your future RC endeavors whether they are with a Motion RC aircraft, or not.

I NEVER said I hit any trees. I said I needed full throttle to get over the trees. It wouldn't give me any power. It was a lame duck that went from stall to stall and then to the ground. I believe that it was one of 3 things. Bad Motor, Bad ESC or the ESC needed a throttle learn. If it was the fact that I didn't do the throttle learn why don't you have a caution in your instructions or provide the ESC manual. At any rate, the support I got from Motion is saying that it was 100% my fault. At best I might accept 50%. It's ok, I will just stay doing business with the folks that I feel will take care of me if I ever need it.

[James]

I NEVER said I hit any trees. I said I needed full throttle to get over the trees. It wouldn't give me any power. It was a lame duck that went from stall to stall and then to the ground. I believe that it was one of 3 things. Bad Motor, Bad ESC or the ESC needed a throttle learn. If it was the fact that I didn't do the throttle learn why don't you have a caution in your instructions or provide the ESC manual. At any rate, the support I got from Motion is saying that it was 100% my fault. At best I might accept 50%. It's ok, I will just stay doing business with the folks that I feel will take care of me if I ever need it.

We will never know, unfortunately. Either way, you are free to just post your review here. More will probably see it here than buried on a product page anyway.

[Gilatrout]

The one thing I've learned is that as the pilot, it is always 100% my responsibility to check to make sure everything is working to my satisfaction.

That means watt testing That means checking and calibrating the esc
That means checking to see if all controls are properly glued
That means checking to see servo travel and direction is correct.
that mean programming or verifying programming in the receiver
than means checking landing gear operation.
that means checking your battery charge and health.

You get the point. Moreover many of these checks should or must be made before each and every flight. It is your responsibility to check the plane before each flight and most especially before the first one.

If something doesn't check out, I will say that every single time Motion has made good on it when it is their fault. Same is true of the other sellers too.

By example, I've watched many a plane go in with the pilot yelling they lost signal. I see what looks like a tip stall. I have the pilot check their radio. Spectrum shows if there was a Loss.of Signal. 99.9% of the time there is no signal loss, the pilot got too slow, too steep in the turn and stalled. Yet the blame goes to the radio.

No one is immune from this. I recently lost my cherished L39. I did my usual checks and everything was fine,.yet when I took off I was very underpowered. I stalled the plane and it went in. What I determined is 1. I turned downwind too soon. 2. I had left my batteries in the car over night because of the meet, and they were cold and not producing despite full charge. Not the manufacturer of the battery's fault. Mine

And this story finally makes.me.think that possibly you flew with a bad battery. The low power could easily be explained by a battery with high internal resistance. Check your batteries for high IR. No plane will fly with a battery like that.

[FlyinTime]

The one thing I've learned is that as the pilot, it is always 100% my responsibility to check to make sure everything is working to my satisfaction.



And this story finally makes.me.think that possibly you flew with a bad battery. The low power could easily be explained by a battery with high internal resistance. Check your batteries for high IR. No plane will fly with a battery like that.

I can put that theory to rest. Since all I got out of this plane was about 10 seconds, I put the battery in my P51 to run down the battery and it performed just fine.

Like I said before it could have been not doing a throttle learn. Unfortunately I spent a lot of time working on the setup of the rear wheel so it would steer right, working on the front slats so they would work right. Plus I haven't had a problem in the past with an ESC not giving full throttle, maybe just lucky, who knows. But it would have been an important reminder for them to include in their manual, website or even in their assembly video.

For me, after buying 3 different planes from Motion and having to fix things on them that should have been done at the factory (design problems) I will just back away and spend my money where it is appreciated. Have a good day.

[FlyinTime]

We will never know, unfortunately. Either way, you are free to just post your review here. More will probably see it here than buried on a product page anyway.

Don't sweat it James, at this point I understand that Motion selects what reviews they will let the public see. Sad that a company plays that game. Have a good day.

[2much2do]

I will confirm that Motion filters their reviews, I have tried twice, the second time using the confirmed buyer link in my email, and neither has been posted. Its not been a good experience with their service either, and I sadly do NOT recommend anyone do business with them if they have any option. My business with them is finally complete, their behavior with reviews made me fear repercussions during their customer service process if I posted anything.

[ebrahimijohn]

I had my maiden flight this morning and I am having a few issues that some of you had. #1 The plane banks left, and the trim helps it but limits my right aileron turns. I have opted not to hook up the slats and have fixed them in the all the way closed position, but they look a little wavy. #2 CG is set at 77mm from the front of the slats with a 6S5000mah. I feel like I need to move the battery forward, flying slow with the flaps was very unstable to the point I landed with the flaps up. This thing had power to spare and the tires and landing gear worked perfect taking off and landing in pretty soft sand at the beach. I had a little tracking issue during take off, but landing and taxi the rear wheel worked great. This is by far the largest RC plane I have flown and am exited about getting it dialed in so I can fly it some more. Any tips or suggestions are welcome.

[Evan D]

Noted, still interested in what happened with your plane and in the end what Motion did or said.

I will confirm that Motion filters their reviews, I have tried twice, the second time using the confirmed buyer link in my email, and neither has been posted. Its not been a good experience with their service either, and I sadly do NOT recommend anyone do business with them if they have any option. My business with them is finally complete, their behavior with reviews made me fear repercussions during their customer service process if I posted anything.

[Starck Mad]

I had my maiden flight this morning and I am having a few issues that some of you had. #1 The plane banks left, and the trim helps it but limits my right aileron turns. I have opted not to hook up the slats and have fixed them in the all the way closed position, but they look a little wavy. #2 CG is set at 77mm from the front of the slats with a 6S5000mah. I feel like I need to move the battery forward, flying slow with the flaps was very unstable to the point I landed with the flaps up. This thing had power to spare and the tires and landing gear worked perfect taking off and landing in pretty soft sand at the beach. I had a little tracking issue during take off, but landing and taxi the rear wheel worked great. This is by far the largest RC plane I have flown and am exited about getting it dialed in so I can fly it some more. Any tips or suggestions are welcome.

If you feel like you might like the CG more forward try that. Set up is a personal feel thing anyway. I would try to measure the gap on your slats (trailing edge to the top of the wing). It won't be much. If there is a difference from one slat to the other...make them match.

One of the main things is any plane with slats is going to require a great deal of rudder...the Bison is no exception and is sensitive to rudder. Your turns need to be initiated with rudder rather than aileron. If you are coordinating it right the ailerons will only be used to control bank angle if the plane banks more than you want it to with rudder (slight opposite aileron correction). In slow, higher alpha flight corrections need to made with rudder...big aileron corrections when slow, hanging on the slats...can cause an off camber stall. If it is"wing rocking" when you do this its because you are chasing the corrections with aileron and close to stalling it. Use rudder instead.

This is a more advanced plane to fly well...especially slow, but with proper technique it is a fun and rewarding experience. Practice these techniques and hopefully slow flight will be more fun for you. BTW...this isn't a problem with the Bison per say...it is a characteristic of any high wing plane with slats. I hope this helps man! Happy flying.

[ebrahimijohn]

Second flight and I am feeling more comfortable. Went down to a 4000mah battery and moved it about 1 inch forward and that felt good in the air. Definitely increasing rudder input made alot of difference, but it was too windy to experiment with slow flap down flying today. I am thinking about removing the slats entirely and installing vortex generators.

[Warlox]

Post pics please if you do remove the slats. I also get a heavy tip to my left wing. I’ve been playing with the slats to figure it out. I also have thought about removing them.

[ebrahimijohn]

This was the absolute best thing I could have done! No matter what I did with the slats I could not make this plane fly comfortably. Once I removed them it was night and day! I really wanted to like this plane and now I do.

[Sureshot]

Leading edge slats work well on full scale aircraft but on scale models they are pretty much a useless gimick. They only produce more drag.


Air just doesn't scale well.

Steve

[Starck Mad]

This was the absolute best thing I could have done! No matter what I did with the slats I could not make this plane fly comfortably. Once I removed them it was night and day! I really wanted to like this plane and now I do.

Glad you have it like you like it! Enjoy it bud!

[Warlox]

I got my bison out today with calm winds. Last week I cut out the windows and replaced with a clearer plexiglass. Much better visibility. I was able to trim out the left roll tendency and the bison flew pretty nice! Definitely turns with rudder and gets pretty tippy in slow flight with full flaps. Those that removed the slats entirely, is it still tippy in slow flight and did it get rid of the left roll tendencies?

[Starck Mad]

Leading edge slats work well on full scale aircraft but on scale models they are pretty much a useless gimick. They only produce more drag.


Air just doesn't scale well.

Steve

Steve I'll have to respectfully disagree. The low Reynolds number for a model does make the technique required for flying with slats different somewhat from a full scale plane, but they are not useless or a gimmick. You simply have to be willing to...and capable of...flying the model as required to take advantage of the slats. Our videos of the plane on Model AV8R prove it can be done and repeated easily by a pilot that fits that profile. You can clearly see the plane flying comfortably in higher alpha utilizing the slats. A model with slats isn't for everybody and that is fine...pilots may or may not be willing to learn the set up and flying skill set to have success with them. I'm a huge STOL plane fan and have trained and practiced these techniques for the last few years with other planes, and developed my rudder skills with 3D planes many years ago...so the Bison doesn't seem difficult to fly well with slats to me. I can see how it will feel uncomfortable for pilots not familiar with what to expect out of it or how to set it up, but just because someone can't do it...or doesn't want to learn how to...which is fine by the way, to each their own... doesn't make it a gimmick. The slats work for me...

[ebrahimijohn]

Steve I'll have to respectfully disagree. The low Reynolds number for a model does make the technique required for flying with slats different somewhat from a full scale plane, but they are not useless or a gimmick. You simply have to be willing to...and capable of...flying the model as required to take advantage of the slats. Our videos of the plane on Model AV8R prove it can be done and repeated easily by a pilot that fits that profile. You can clearly see the plane flying comfortably in higher alpha utilizing the slats. A model with slats isn't for everybody and that is fine...pilots may or may not be willing to learn the set up and flying skill set to have success with them. I'm a huge STOL plane fan and have trained and practiced these techniques for the last few years with other planes, and developed my rudder skills with 3D planes many years ago...so the Bison doesn't seem difficult to fly well with slats to me. I can see how it will feel uncomfortable for pilots not familiar with what to expect out of it or how to set it up, but just because someone can't do it...or doesn't want to learn how to...which is fine by the way, to each their own... doesn't make it a gimmick. The slats work for me...

100% on the money! After your advice I flew a few batteries with primarily rudder input and it made all the difference on how it preformed in slow flight. In high alpha just before stall speed the ailerons are very infective and must have rudder input to maintain attitude just like you said in our previous exchange. I was never able to fully eliminate left pitch but in the end I removed the slats and now this Bison feels more familiar to my lazy flight technique. People who are not used to using the rudder on a regular basis during flight ( me being in this category) are going to have a difficult time with this plane in slow flight.

[Starck Mad]

100% on the money! After your advice I flew a few batteries with primarily rudder input and it made all the difference on how it preformed in slow flight. In high alpha just before stall speed the ailerons are very infective and must have rudder input to maintain attitude just like you said in our previous exchange. I was never able to fully eliminate left pitch but in the end I removed the slats and now this Bison feels more familiar to my lazy flight technique. People who are not used to using the rudder on a regular basis during flight ( me being in this category) are going to have a difficult time with this plane in slow flight.

I'm really glad you took the steps to get it where you want it so you can enjoy it. Awesome that you tried the technique first before you gave up on it...you can put the slats back on or replace them with a new (maybe straighter?) set later on if you decide to mess with learning rudder more. Much respect for you for just stating what you want and admitting what you don't want to do...a lot of modelers have to find a issue with the airplane rather than just saying it may be more than they can or want to handle at this point. This is definitely an advanced airplane to set up and fly well.

[Warlox]

Any good videos on the high aoa rudder flying you’re talking about?