Official FlightLine RC 2000mm B-24D/J Liberator Thread

[Hugh Wiedman]

Hugh did that Jet jockey ever step up like a Man and pay for your lose ? never did hear what came about

Unfortunately I got as much satisfaction from that "jack as...." as I fear Enzo_K will get from MRC. Filed a grievance which was supported by everyone at the event, but not much will come from it as our club rules require 3 separate incidences to occur before anything meaningful is done. Like most things in life, we just have to move on at some point. The only satisfaction is that his damage was in the neighborhood of $4000 compared to mine in the hundreds and he was trying to sell that jet to a friend of mine for a fairly large sum, but now all his potential buyers have evaporated. Thankfully I still have the Olive version intact, which takes some of the sting out and hoping Alpha will come up with a very large silver B-17 that I can replace it with.

[Hugh Wiedman]

Then we RC pilots are responsible for landing every defective plane safely they sell?

I'm totally with you Enzo_K , hell I have a hard enough time just landing a plane that's in perfect working order.

[Enzo_K]

I'm totally with you Enzo_K , hell I have a hard enough time just landing a plane that's in perfect working order.

Seriously, Motion RC's reply kept me from sleeping for the past few nights. It is 5:30 AM in the morning of thanksgiving, and I cant close my eye but thinking about I am the one to blame for a manufacturer defect?

[Gringotuerto]

...And today, sadly, I could use some more of your opinions to help with my situation...

That is a tough situation. Everybody has slightly different attitude about this kind of thing, and mine is no better than anyone else's, but since you asked for opinion here is one. I agree it is not trivial to land a plane with asymmetric thrust like this. Particularly since you lost the outboard one, the yaw imbalance is higher than if you had lost an inboard. On the other hand, this is not the world's most lucrative business, and they can't make everybody whole on every accident, or it would not be a business at all. Given that our hobby is throwing stuff in the air at high speed, I think we each have to take some responsibility for the inevitable accidents. Keep in mind that every support call also costs them money, regardless of the outcome.

What seems fair to me is to buy a new one at some discount. The logic is, if we split costs into non-recurring costs and recurring costs, you already paid your share of non-recurring costs the first time you ordered one. So if you paid something to cover their manufacture, shipping, handling, staff time, overhead, etc, then they at least don't lose money, but you also aren't paying double your fair share of the large non-recurring costs such as molds and design engineering. That seems like a reasonable middle ground to me. I don't know what that discount is, and I don't think their going to tell you. If I made a wild guess it might be a 40% discount. But maybe just ask for a discounted replacement and see what they offer.

[Enzo_K]

That is a tough situation. Everybody has slightly different attitude about this kind of thing, and mine is no better than anyone else's, but since you asked for opinion here is one. I agree it is not trivial to land a plane with asymmetric thrust like this. Particularly since you lost the outboard one, the yaw imbalance is higher than if you had lost an inboard. On the other hand, this is not the world's most lucrative business, and they can't make everybody whole on every accident, or it would not be a business at all. Given that our hobby is throwing stuff in the air at high speed, I think we each have to take some responsibility for the inevitable accidents. Keep in mind that every support call also costs them money, regardless of the outcome.

What seems fair to me is to buy a new one at some discount. The logic is, if we split costs into non-recurring costs and recurring costs, you already paid your share of non-recurring costs the first time you ordered one. So if you paid something to cover their manufacture, shipping, handling, staff time, overhead, etc, then they at least don't lose money, but you also aren't paying double your fair share of the large non-recurring costs such as molds and design engineering. That seems like a reasonable middle ground to me. I don't know what that discount is, and I don't think their going to tell you. If I made a wild guess it might be a 40% discount. But maybe just ask for a discounted replacement and see what they offer.

I agree with you on this one. However, the only thing they are offering me now is just their sympathy?

[Mad Baron]

Enzo

Have you considered buying a replacement fuse and wingset to replace the broken parts? These parts are less than $200, just a thought.

[Enzo_K]

Enzo

Have you considered buying a replacement fuse and wingset to replace the broken parts? These parts are less than $200, just a thought.

Replacing a multiengine aircraft's entire airframe would take more than what it takes to buy a new one. And it won't be safe to trust those electronics on a new airframe. Unfortunately, I don't have all the time in the world to do all that. Putting this bird together already took more than 20 hours of my free time. And I don't think I should be the one paying all the price for a defective product from the manufacturer.

[MikeT]

While I understand your frustration this is just part of the hobby. Put it aside and move on. I lost my OV-10 on the maiden seems like I lost everything right after take off. I got too fly a $400 airplane for 90 seconds. Crap happens.

Mike

[mshagg]

And today, sadly, I could use some more of your opinions to help with my situation.

Cant say I agree with their position, but realistically none of us can help you navigate their warranty processes. I think it is fair to ask them for support following the failure, but it's a matter between you and them. I wish you good luck, it's a lovely plane to bring out on special occasions.

[Enzo_K]

While I understand your frustration this is just part of the hobby. Put it aside and move on. I lost my OV-10 on the maiden seems like I lost everything right after take off. I got too fly a $400 airplane for 90 seconds. Crap happens.

Mike

Well, if you lost signal and came to a crash on a PNP aircraft. It could be a matter of a bad receiver, a binding issue. If this crash happened on a signal lost, I can move on for sure. I had a P40 lost signal on me. It went straight down to the ground and broken in half. I can walk away from that crash coz it is my responsibility to make sure the bond is secured for a PNP aircraft. However, in this case. I have all the controls until it crashed, even after the crash, and I have clear evidence showing the crash is caused by a manufacturer defect. I don't think this is something I should walk away by myself. It is a high-risk hobby for sure. But that is not an excuse for the manufacturer or the retailer to blame customers to cover the defective product.

[MikeT]

Well, if you lost signal and came to a crash on a PNP aircraft. It could be a matter of a bad receiver, a binding issue. If this crash happened on a signal lost, I can move on for sure. I had a P40 lost signal on me. It went straight down to the ground and broken in half. I can walk away from that crash coz it is my responsibility to make sure the bond is secured for a PNP aircraft. However, in this case. I have all the controls until it crashed, even after the crash, and I have clear evidence showing the crash is caused by a manufacturer defect. I don't think this is something I should walk away by myself. It is a high-risk hobby for sure. But that is not an excuse for the manufacturer or the retailer to blame customers to cover the defective product.

" Well if"
I have no clue what happened.. All of my equipment was new name brand and in working order to the best of my knowledge. I guess I could blame everyone that manufactured the plane and my equipment, but I won't. Like I said just move on I did and I sleep just fine. Did it hurt ? Yea a bit but after being in the hobby for 45+ years ....well crap happens.

Mike

[Gringotuerto]

I agree with you on this one. However, the only thing they are offering me now is just their sympathy?

Well, you have my sympathy and you didn't even pay me anything :) Anyway, I usually lean towards "everybody pays for his own disasters", given that accidents are so frequent in the hobby. And usually it is impossible to unravel exactly what happened. But your case seems a bit unusual because I don't think there is any doubt about what happened. The photo seems clear. ESC definitely failed, and it's pretty far removed from user-installed equipment. I suppose one could wrongly program the ESC, but it was working on the ground, so that doesn't seem to be the case. So IMHO you have a good reason for a discount, but if they don't see it that way, best to forget about it and fix this or another plane.

[xviper]

This is unrelated to the "cause" of the crash, but mine was in far worse condition than the picture shown in post #1714. On take off roll, it ran off the edge of the runway and caught the taller grass with the outside prop. The whole thing did a couple of cartwheels. I fixed it. Didn't look pretty but it flew again. Wouldn't you know it, did the same thing again a few flights later. Will repair it again this winter. I'm going to put one of those Assan steering gyros into it for next spring.
As to the "cause" of the engine failure, there is another possible explanation ..................... I have several multis (not that it's relevant) and I always inspect all the connectors on every motor/ESC. Lo and behold, on one plane, one of the 3 motor wires on one motor was barely plugged in. The motor worked but a couple of flights of rattling around and that connection would have just come apart resulting in a dead motor. I was lucky with that plane. However, I've had single motor failures on a twin and I was able to shut down power and dead stick to a safe landing. Every case will be different.

[Enzo_K]

" Well if"
I have no clue what happened.. All of my equipment was new name brand and in working order to the best of my knowledge. I guess I could blame everyone that manufactured the plane and my equipment, but I won't. Like I said just move on I did and I sleep just fine. Did it hurt ? Yea a bit but after being in the hobby for 45+ years ....well crap happens.

Mike

I have a clear photo shows what happened to the plane. If that is not clear enough to prove a manufacturer defect. I dont know what could be.

[MikeT]

I have a clear photo shows what happened to the plane. If that is not clear enough to prove a manufacturer defect. I dont know what could be.

Apparently it's not. Move on.
Mike

[Enzo_K]

Well, you have my sympathy and you didn't even pay me anything :) Anyway, I usually lean towards "everybody pays for his own disasters", given that accidents are so frequent in the hobby. And usually it is impossible to unravel exactly what happened. But your case seems a bit unusual because I don't think there is any doubt about what happened. The photo seems clear. ESC definitely failed, and it's pretty far removed from user-installed equipment. I suppose one could wrongly program the ESC, but it was working on the ground, so that doesn't seem to be the case. So IMHO you have a good reason for a discount, but if they don't see it that way, best to forget about it and fix this or another plane.

Right, I think you got the point, sympathy does not worth a penny. lol

And I agree with "everyone pays for his own disasters". In this case, the manufacturer has a disaster. I'm aware of how frequent accidents could happen in this hobby. And probably more than 50% of the accidents are caused by the pilot. I have a P40B crashed on takeoff earlier this year. I put the trainer mode on the same switch with my gear. I walked away from that crash as soon as I figured out what happened.

[Enzo_K]

Apparently it's not. Move on.
Mike

Well, apparently it is. Coz Motion RC confirmed there is a manufacturer defect on either the ESC or the motor.

[Enzo_K]

This is unrelated to the "cause" of the crash, but mine was in far worse condition than the picture shown in post #1714. On take off roll, it ran off the edge of the runway and caught the taller grass with the outside prop. The whole thing did a couple of cartwheels. I fixed it. Didn't look pretty but it flew again. Wouldn't you know it, did the same thing again a few flights later. Will repair it again this winter. I'm going to put one of those Assan steering gyros into it for next spring.
As to the "cause" of the engine failure, there is another possible explanation ..................... I have several multis (not that it's relevant) and I always inspect all the connectors on every motor/ESC. Lo and behold, on one plane, one of the 3 motor wires on one motor was barely plugged in. The motor worked but a couple of flights of rattling around and that connection would have just come apart resulting in a dead motor. I was lucky with that plane. However, I've had single motor failures on a twin and I was able to shut down power and dead stick to a safe landing. Every case will be different.

Yes, a connection problem could do the same thing. But I put tape over all of my connections. And they are still in place even after the crash. I also sent photos of the connection right after the crash to Motion RC.

[MikeT]

Well, apparently it is. Coz Motion RC confirmed there is a manufacturer defect on either the ESC or the motor.

Whens you replacement B-24 showing up?
Mike

[Enzo_K]

Whens you replacement B-24 showing up?
Mike

They just agreed with a discount on my next purchase. We are discussing the details now.